Is pacifism at all logical?

[Charlemagne_II]

Daizies
**
Nothing anyone can say here will convince me to change my mind.**

The Catechism of the Catholic Church will not change your mind?

“2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.”

So, according to you, we should do away with the police? Might as well do away with the courts too, since the police bring criminals into the courts.

 

[triumphguy]

Certainly those you listed were heroes, but so were Churchill, Franco, Eisenhower, Philip, and Montgomery, to name a few.

Not Franco.

 

[devoutchristian]

Not Franco.

Yes Franco.

 

[triumphguy]

Daizies
**
Nothing anyone can say here will convince me to change my mind.**

The Catechism of the Catholic Church will not change your mind?

“2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.”

So, according to you, we should do away with the police? Might as well do away with the courts too, since the police bring criminals into the courts.

Not everyone is “responsible for the lives of others or the common good.”

You wouldn’t expect a priest to pick up a gun for instance in whatever hypothetical situation.

Christ didn’t save the "good thief’s life - he forgave his sins.

We need our martyrs, our St, Francis’s - the peace makers. Some people are called to witness through peace. It doesn’t make them cowards, or morally weak.

They are quite probably braver than the guys who pick up guns.

But we need the peacekeepers too.

Canada used to have an international reputation as peacekeepers, now we just tag along on whatever war happens to be going on.

We’re too small a country to win a war on our own (except against the USA in 1812 ), but our moral standing in the 50 years of peacekeeping we did meant we punched above our weight (pun and irony intended) in international matters.

 

[Daizies]

So, according to you, we should do away with the police? Might as well do away with the courts too, since the police bring criminals into the courts.

Did I ever say that? I choose to be a pacifist - I do not force it upon anyone else. I know that in a broken world there will always be violence, but that does not obligate me to perpetuate it.

@ devoutchristian If by some bizarre unlikely chance I had a gun, at most I would fire it into the air (but even then I don’t think that I would. I am not at all comfortable with the idea of wielding a weapon.) - that would likely be sufficient to stop the attack. From a purely logical standpoint, it would be absolute folly for a person untrained in the handling of firearms to attempt to shoot someone to stop an attack as you would be just as likely to hit the person you are trying to save.

 

[devoutchristian]

Christ didn’t save the "good thief’s life - he forgave his sins.

They were both nailed to crosses. What (within his natural powers) could he have done?

We need our martyrs, our St, Francis’s - the peace makers. Some people are called to witness through peace. It doesn’t make them cowards, or morally weak.

Who did St. Francis watch get murdered while he stood by doing nothing?

We’re too small a country to win a war on our own

You only had the help of the whole British Empire.

I choose to be a pacifist - I do not force it upon anyone else.

So you agree that chaos would ensue if your viewpoint became generally accepted?

 

[triumphguy]

They were both nailed to crosses. What (within his natural powers) could he have done?

Who did St. Francis watch get murdered while he stood by doing nothing?

You only had the help of the whole British Empire.

So you agree that chaos would ensue if your viewpoint became generally accepted?

No the “whole British Empire” was fighting Napoleon - you know one of those European Dictators that keeps springing up from time to time, and which Britain has to fight while the USA either attacks its colonies (1812), or sits idly by (1939).

 

[Daizies]

So you agree that chaos would ensue if your viewpoint became generally accepted?

No - because if it was generally accepted, there would be no need for law enforcement because no one would be behaving violently

I’m trying to think of how to explain my beliefs, but it is hard to explain - and to people who appear to have no intention of listening, but only of trying to convince me of my errors , I really see no point. If I was having this conversation with one of my friends, and I knew she would be respectful even if she did not agree, it would be another story.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

daizies

Did I ever say that? I choose to be a pacifist - I do not force it upon anyone else. I know that in a broken world there will always be violence, but that does not obligate me to perpetuate it.

No one asked you to perpetuate it.

triumphguy

**We need our martyrs, our St, Francis’s - the peace makers. Some people are called to witness through peace. It doesn’t make them cowards, or morally weak. **

Others are called to the virtue of courage and combating evil, like St. Joan of Arc.

 

[Daizies]

daizies
No one asked you to perpetuate it.

Sure looks like it to me:

Here’s a hypothetical, say that you saw someone (unarmed) strangling a child to death, and you had a gun.

Non violent opposition is sitting by and doing nothing.

If you witnessed someone being murdered in front of you and did nothing to stop it even though you could, then you would be a facilitator of that evil.

You both seem to think that I must commit an act of violence to be a moral person, or at least be willing to do so. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding what is being said

 

[SuperLuigi]

Ok, im not sure if this is the right section of the forums to be posting in, but whatever. A question has been on my mind. In the New Testament, Jesus tells us not to fight, and to be good to those who persecute us. But what if being good and not fighing meant that your nation would be destroyed, what if it means your relegion would be wiped out? What if on 9/11, those passengers on that one airplane decided to not fight back so the plane would crash in a feild? More lives would be lost, more evil could come to power. I have heard of the “just war/right war” theories that the Church seems to accept, but still, somethig isnt making sense to me. Please explain.

On the other hand, I should mention the fact that Chrisianity is the largest relegion on earth, but started off as a small group persecuted by the Romans…clearly something about pacifism worked…but what???

The Church teaches us that a person has a right to self defense as well as national security.

Not everyone is called to martyrdom as many of the early Christians were, and it certainly is not an obligation for every Christian whose life is in danger.

My understanding is that the Just War criterion were created once Christianity became influential as a force in politics.

 

[devoutchristian]

No the “whole British Empire” was fighting Napoleon

Until he was exiled.

you know one of those European Dictators that keeps springing up from time to time, and which Britain has to fight while the USA either attacks its colonies (1812), or sits idly by (1939).

I’m well aware that the US was a pain to the allies during the Napoleonic Wars.

No - because if it was generally accepted, there would be no need for law enforcement because no one would be behaving violently

Everyone on the planet save one miscreant could decide to become absolute pacifists, and the system would fail.

You both seem to think that I must commit an act of violence to be a moral person, or at least be willing to do so. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding what is being said

While that’s a biased way of putting it, yes, refusing to even fire a warning shot to save a child’s life is not a moral thing to do.

 

[Fairwinds]

pacifism is logical as long as someone else stands a watch or walks a post or a beat.

I look at it as a matter of mutual feelings: you pacifists don’t have to thank or even acknowledge those of us who served, and I don’t have to respect you in return.

my definition of pacifist excludes men like Desmond Doss, and includes specifically, those who are so against the use of violence that they’d see their daughter assaulted but not violently intervene.

F/

 

[triumphguy]

Why is everyone so either/or?

Would a veteran disrespect Mother Teresa? Or Pope Francis?

There is a need for BOTH - though who are willing to stand for peace - even if it means losing their lives, AND those who are willing to fight for peace, even if it means losing their lives.

Some of the bravest people in WW2 died without offering violent resistance - the 3,000 Polish priests who died in Dachau for example.

And others died at Tobruk or on Juno and at Dieppe or Monte Cassino, or in the Battle of the Atlantic.

They are all heroes in my eyes.

 

[Daizies]

I look at it as a matter of mutual feelings: you pacifists don’t have to thank or even acknowledge those of us who served, and I don’t have to respect you in return.

I do respect veterans, and current military personnel. Both of my Grandfathers are veterans, and I have friends who serve both in the military and reserves. I’m sorry that others have made you feel disrespected and unappreciated.

As I said before, it is my choice, I do not force it onto others.

 

[Daizies]

Daizies;10706826:

No - because if it was generally accepted, there would be no need for law enforcement because no one would be behaving violently

Everyone on the planet save one miscreant could decide to become absolute pacifists, and the system would fail.

I was making a joke
Rational thinking says it will never happen (so why waste time worrying about it?)

 

[Daizies]

Why is everyone so either/or?

Would a veteran disrespect Mother Teresa? Or Pope Francis?

There is a need for BOTH - though who are willing to stand for peace - even if it means losing their lives, AND those who are willing to fight for peace, even if it means losing their lives.

Some of the bravest people in WW2 died without offering violent resistance - the 3,000 Polish priests who died in Dachau for example.

And others died at Tobruk or on Juno and at Dieppe or Monte Cassino, or in the Battle of the Atlantic.

They are all heroes in my eyes.

I’m not really an either/or kind of person.

 

[triumphguy]

I’m not really an either/or kind of person.

That’s 'cos you’re a fellow Canuck:thumbsup: And as we know it’s hard to be either or when we all live in igloos

 

[Daizies]

That’s 'cos you’re a fellow Canuck:thumbsup: And as we know it’s hard to be either or when we all live in igloos

Right now mine’s melting :coolinoff:

 

[Fairwinds]

I do respect veterans, and current military personnel. Both of my Grandfathers are veterans, and I have friends who serve both in the military and reserves. I’m sorry that others have made you feel disrespected and unappreciated.

As I said before, it is my choice, I do not force it onto others.

I don’t feel under appreciated in the least. I didn’t stand watches to make pacifism a safe option for pacifists, I did that for the people who counted – as I saw it. just being honest.

F/