Is pacifism at all logical?

[TEPO]

Peace does NOT mean non-violence. Jesus is the Prince of Peace, but in the Temple was violent toward the animals and money changers.

He also said that if our eye offends us, tear it out. Basically, this means that force/violence has a place in Peace.

Did Jesus ever lay a hand on another person in violence?

 

[TEPO]

What’s your answer?

Peace.

 

[devoutchristian]

You have no idea if Pope Francis would choose allow the Swiss guards to use lethal force.

As the political authority in Vatican City he’s responsible for ensuring the safety of those present within the Vatican City State, so I highly doubt that he would tell the Swiss Guards not to fulfill their function.

I’m not sure why that’s a hard point to get across.

Because you’re failing to distinguish between not defending oneself from martyrdom and opposing force on principle (which is contrary to the Church’s teachings).

 

[bsroufek]

Did Jesus ever lay a hand on another person in violence?

You are suggesting that Peace means total nonviolence, while I say that, although Jesus did
not attack any person, he did attack the money changers’ tables and the animals in the
Temple.

Again, Peace sometimes includes sensible and controlled violence, as stated.

 

[TEPO]

You are suggesting that Peace means total nonviolence, while I say that, although Jesus did
not attack any person, he did attack the money changers’ tables and the animals in the
Temple.

Again, Peace sometimes includes sensible and controlled violence, as stated.

To put it into perspective, peace might be best achieved by knocking over the ‘structures’ that stand in the way of Gods plan… But I don’t think that defending ones self is considered pacifism, I’d consider that a natural instinct -which is a God given Grace.

 

[bsroufek]

…But I don’t think that defending ones self is considered pacifism, I’d consider that a natural instinct -which is a God given Grace.

I believe the Church teaches that, although we have a RIGHT to defend ourselves, turning the other cheek is what Jesus teaches, as the Saints and Martyrs have shown us.

 

[triumphguy]

As the political authority in Vatican City he’s responsible for ensuring the safety of those present within the Vatican City State, so I highly doubt that he would tell the Swiss Guards not to fulfill their function.

WE’re into hypotheticals - which you enjoy so much.

Because you’re failing to distinguish between not defending oneself from martyrdom and opposing force on principle (which is contrary to the Church’s teachings).

No I’m not failing to distinguish anything: Not ALL people have to oppose force - only those RESPONSIBLE.

And if you DON"T want to then don’t join the army or the police and you won’t be responsible.

And if your NOT in the army or the police then you DON’T have a moral duty to oppose force.

It’s BOTH/AND not EITHER/OR

No one seems willing to answer the question, what can we learn from pacifism?

 

[devoutchristian]

No I’m not failing to distinguish anything

Yes you are.

 

[FrancisBenedict]

Exactly although we have the right to defend ourselves, we have free will, but Jesus taught to turn the other cheek.

What can we learn from pacifism? This question seems strange to me personally as I’m already a pacifist. But remember ‘love your enemies, bless those who curse you’.

To God we are all his creation so why would he want us killing each other? In fact he expressly forbade it in the 10 commandments.

We can’t know that Jesus attacked the money changers I don’t think he would, but he overturned their tables etc.

PAX+

 

[bsroufek]

…

No one seems willing to answer the question, what can we learn from pacifism?

We learn our dependence upon God. “The Battle belongs to the Lord”, so we learn to wait upon Him for our protection and defense.

 

[triumphguy]

Yes you are.

No I’m not.

That’s a mutually beneficial way of debating isn’t it:thumbsup:

Your turn.

 

[devoutchristian]

In fact he expressly forbade it in the 10 commandments.

The word used was murder.

 

[triumphguy]

Ok, im not sure if this is the right section of the forums to be posting in, but whatever. A question has been on my mind. In the New Testament, Jesus tells us not to fight, and to be good to those who persecute us. But what if being good and not fighing meant that your nation would be destroyed, what if it means your relegion would be wiped out? What if on 9/11, those passengers on that one airplane decided to not fight back so the plane would crash in a feild? More lives would be lost, more evil could come to power. I have heard of the “just war/right war” theories that the Church seems to accept, but still, somethig isnt making sense to me. Please explain.

On the other hand, I should mention the fact that Chrisianity is the largest relegion on earth, but started off as a small group persecuted by the Romans…clearly something about pacifism worked…but what???

Absolute trust and faith in God, despite persecution, despite fear, despite the hatred of the world for their faith.

This faith was “infectious” and extremely attractive to those already in the margins as well as those in positions of wealth and power.

In the same way St. Francis walked unarmed into the Muslim camp during the 5th Crusade.

Such trusting vulnerability is powerful.

See this recent quote from a muslim blog:

There is much in a name, and to Muslim ears the new pope’s choice of Francis recalls the 13th century St. Francis of Assisi, who broke protocol during wartime to initiate one of the first Islamic-Christian dialogues.

In 1219, when the Fifth Crusade was attacking the walled Egyptian city of Damietta, St. Francis walked across enemy lines unarmed to meet Sultan Malik al-Kamil of Egypt.

The Muslim sultan was known for his compassion toward Egypt’s Christian minority and this courageous act by St. Francis allowed him the opportunity to discuss peace, the war and faith.

The sultan agreed to receive St. Francis due to Francis’ peaceful approach at a time of war. They had an engaging conversation and he eventually left unharmed, safely returning to his camp. themuslimguy.com/column-pope-francis-embodies-saint-who-talked-peace-with-muslims-during-crusades/

 

[FrancisBenedict]

The word used was murder.

Yes I believe so, but one man’s killing is another’s murder don’t you think? Another mother’s child killed, another widow or orphans often.

Look at the world from the pictures from the moon, does it seem to make sense that people kill one another?

I know ‘an eye for an eye’ was meant to limit revenge to the same proportion but ‘an eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind’.

God is a God of Peace, inner and outer Peace.

And Jesus did reach Peace in the Sermon on the Mount for example.

PAX+

 

[Daizies]

While that’s a biased way of putting it, yes, refusing to even fire a warning shot to save a child’s life is not a moral thing to do.

It amuses me that your automatic assumption is that I would even know what to do with a gun. My knowledge of them is limited to TV, and really, I don’t watch a whole lot of those shows. The closest I’ve come to one in real life is seeing one in the holster of a police officer walking past.

No, that would mean that they opposed force on principle. (you realize that one of them has Swiss Guards under his command who would use lethal force to protect him, hardly a pacifist)

I think part of the problem as to why we just keep going in circles in this discussion is that you fail to distinguish between someone who is a pacifist at a personal level and someone who believes in pacifism at an institutional/governmental level.
As I’ve said before, I am a pacifist, but I would never force it on anyone else. I accept that other people’s moral codes tell them it is okay to use violence in certain situations, and I do not judge them for that.

 

[devoutchristian]

Yes I believe so, but one man’s killing is another’s murder don’t you think?

Not if the killing occurred in justified defense.

 

[bsroufek]

To God we are all his creation so why would he want us killing each other? In fact he expressly forbade it in the 10 commandments.

Personally, the 10 commandments forbids us from killing. But God helped King David and others in their wars. So War is NOT the same as murder.

 

[FrancisBenedict]

Not if the killing occurred in justified defense.

I can understand your point of view, but what about what Jesus said about it?

Luke 6:27-29 “But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt."

and

Matthew 5:43-45 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."

(NRSVCE)

 

[devoutchristian]

I can understand your point of view, but what about what Jesus said about it?

Luke 6:27-29 “But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt."

and

Matthew 5:43-45 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."

(NRSVCE)

He also told the Apostles to buy swords.

 

[bsroufek]

I can understand your point of view, but what about what Jesus said about it?

Jesus would have said to the soldiers, “Quit being soldiers”, if war was not a necessity.
Solders are not to be pacifists to their enemies.