Is passionate kissing wrong for unmarried people?

[elts1956]

IF it’s wrong, it’s wrong like eating chocolate cake for breakfast is wrong. It’s sooooo not wrong like swearing at your mother is wrong.

There are ALOT of things I hope my children never do. Kissing before marriage - even passionatly is so not one of them.

Rots of ruck!!

 

[BlaineTog]

Still you spout relativism.

Still you strawman. I agree completelly that a sin is a sin. My point is that we aren’t always in a position to make that judgment. For example, I walk in on someone win a gun standing over a body with a gun in its hand, and the person says it was self defense. It may have been murder, but I have no way of knowing (assuming the scene doesn’t have any telling evidence).

In this case, whether it is sinful or not is largely dependent on interior things. These things I can’t know without the person truthfully divulging them, so barring that, I can’t make a judgment. You can disagree with this, of course, but you have to actually do that, not try to slander and strawman me with wild claims of “relativism.”

But we’re repeating ourselves. I’ll refrain from responding unless you have something new to say (since there’s nothing else to say on what’s been posted I haven’t already said).

 

[elts1956]

Still you strawman. I agree completelly that a sin is a sin. My point is that we aren’t always in a position to make that judgment. For example, I walk in on someone win a gun standing over a body with a gun in its hand, and the person says it was self defense. It may have been murder, but I have no way of knowing (assuming the scene doesn’t have any telling evidence).

In this case, whether it is sinful or not is largely dependent on interior things. These things I can’t know without the person truthfully divulging them, so barring that, I can’t make a judgment. You can disagree with this, of course, but you have to actually do that, not try to slander and strawman me with wild claims of “relativism.”

But we’re repeating ourselves. I’ll refrain from responding unless you have something new to say (since there’s nothing else to say on what’s been posted I haven’t already said).

Hi. Do you understand relativism? No absolutes? Such as obeying the ten commandments and ALL therin? Obeying Church Law? Obeying the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding Chastity? Also, are you talking about “judging” others? I am not talking judging here. I am talking sin as an absolute.

 

[BlaineTog]

Hi. Do you understand relativism? No absolutes? Such as obeying the ten commandments and ALL therin? Obeying Church Law? Obeying the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding Chastity? Also, are you talking about “judging” others? I am not talking judging here. I am talking sin as an absolute.

Sigh

Please just actually read what I posted. Your accusations are wildly off-base. It’s so blatant it almost looks like you’re doing it on purpose.

 

[elts1956]

Sigh

Please just actually read what I posted. Your accusations are wildly off-base. It’s so blatant it almost looks like you’re doing it on purpose.

Sorry to be so dense. You said, “I can’t make a judgment”. Just trying to clarify your position. I know mine, but I don’t know yours. And yes, I can be quite pesty when I don’t understand something. Sorry about that.

 

[BlaineTog]

Ok, fine. Here’s my last post (the relevant parts):

I agree completelly that a sin is a sin. My point is that we aren’t always in a position to make that judgment.

I’m not saying that I can’t judge in general, just that I don’t have the ability to judge every event on its sinfulness because that would require omniscience, which I don’t have.

In some case, judgment requires information I won’t have. It’s like a math problem: x + y = 1000, for example. You can’t solve for “x” if you don’t know “y,” because x could be anything. It isn’t; it’s only one thing. I simply don’t know what that one thing is.

I’m not saying there are no absolutes; far from it. But… can you read minds? If so, go ahead and judge this. But I can’t, and a human would need to to always be able to tell if a given two people making out were sinning. God, of course, knows, but he knows everything.

 

[elts1956]

Ok, fine. Here’s my last post (the relevant parts):

I’m not saying that I can’t judge in general, just that I don’t have the ability to judge every event on its sinfulness because that would require omniscience, which I don’t have.

In some case, judgment requires information I won’t have. It’s like a math problem: x + y = 1000, for example. You can’t solve for “x” if you don’t know “y,” because x could be anything. It isn’t; it’s only one thing. I simply don’t know what that one thing is.

I’m not saying there are no absolutes; far from it. But… can you read minds? If so, go ahead and judge this. But I can’t, and a human would need to to always be able to tell if a given two people making out were sinning. God, of course, knows, but he knows everything.

Still looks like relativism to me. For your info. I am judging THE SIN not the person.

 

[BlaineTog]

Still looks like relativism to me.

It’s relativism to not judge if you don’t have enough data? I think not.

For your info. I am judging THE SIN not the person.

Nor did I imply differently.

It’s like that whole “If you’ve had adulterous thoughts, it’s still a sin” thing. It’s always a sin, but I can’t always tell if you’ve committed it. Like, pretty much only if you come out and tell me.

 

[elts1956]

It’s relativism to not judge if you don’t have enough data? I think not.

Nor did I imply differently.

It’s like that whole “If you’ve had adulterous thoughts, it’s still a sin” thing. It’s always a sin, but I can’t always tell if you’ve committed it. Like, pretty much only if you come out and tell me.

Okay, I’ll try one more time. Is it wrong for an unmarried couple to kiss passionately, YES, absolutely. Am “I” able to judge what kind and to what extent they have sinned? NO.

 

[thomfra]

Of all the treads, on all the forums, on the entire internet. This one has to be the most pointless and stupid.

No offence to the OP, but if you can’t make your own decision as to what is appropriate based on **your **understanding of the Catholic teachings on something like kissing…argh… forget it.

 

[BlaineTog]

Okay, I’ll try one more time. Is it wrong for an unmarried couple to kiss passionately, YES, absolutely.

No, not always. I’m not saying there aren’t absolutes, only that making out before marriage isn’t absolutely always sinful (even if it probably usually is). It’s kinda like how it isn’t always sinful to take pills which make you infertile (ie it’s treatment for a medical condition), even though contraception is always sinful. But go back and read my previous posts about this. As I said, I loathe repeating myself.

 

[elts1956]

No, not always. I’m not saying there aren’t absolutes, only that making out before marriage isn’t absolutely always sinful (even if it probably usually is). It’s kinda like how it isn’t always sinful to take pills which make you infertile (ie it’s treatment for a medical condition), even though contraception is always sinful. But go back and read my previous posts about this. As I said, I loathe repeating myself.

Hello again. I don’t mean to be snippy, but it wouldn’t help me at all to go back and read your posts because I still wouldn’t understand where you are coming from. Passionate kissing is a sexual arousal that, however pleasant, is an occasion of sin for anyone not married. To willingly expose oneself to what could be an occasion of sin, and in this instance would be, is a sin in itself. I am sorry you don’t understand that. I cannot explain myself any more clearly and I don’t think you could obfuscate the topic with more murkiness.

 

[GraceDK]

… Passionate kissing is a sexual arousal that, however pleasant, is an occasion of sin for anyone not married. .

For me it ain’t.
There is no sexual arousal in it… unless there is an intention for that and believe me I have tried it both ways…
It can be a pure passionate kiss, eg. after an argument as the end of a hug at broad daylight somewhere out in the open with no sex intended whatsoever. It can be a good bye kiss at the train station when the beloved is leaving for a long vacation… etc…
I think bottomline you just have to understand that people are different. Some people may very easily be sexually aroused. I know one woman who could not take her boyfriend caressing her arm without being overwhelmed with desire … that does not mean caressing the arm of a beloved would be a near occasion of sin in itself to you or to me or someone else…

I really think BlaineTog makes perfect sense in his posts.

 

[elts1956]

For me it ain’t.
There is no sexual arousal in it… unless there is an intention for that and believe me I have tried it both ways…
It can be a pure passionate kiss, eg. after an argument as the end of a hug at broad daylight somewhere out in the open with no sex intended whatsoever. It can be a good bye kiss at the train station when the beloved is leaving for a long vacation… etc…
I think bottomline you just have to understand that people are different. Some people may very easily be sexually aroused. I know one woman who could not take her boyfriend caressing her arm without being overwhelmed with desire … that does not mean caressing the arm of a beloved would be a near occasion of sin in itself to you or to me or someone else…

I really think BlaineTog makes perfect sense in his posts.

I don’t know what your and Blaine Tog’s concept of passionate kissing is. As you say, there are many kinds of expressions of the passionate kiss, some come under the heading of the passionate kiss of eros and sexual arousal, or the passionate kiss of agape ie. as you have illustrated above the making up kiss after an argument, (going no further than expression of happiness) the mother’s kiss for her infant, the goobye kiss at the train, all agape, and sinless. I suppose there is a differance in nuance, kissing passionately and being overcome with passion. I thought we were talking about passionate kissing as in the first instance sexual arousal, eros. In the last instance, if one knows this will happen when kissing it is an occasion of sin. I was only thinking linear. Thanks for clearing that up for me and Blaine Tog.

 

[Argh]

Hey there,

I just read the first couple pages and then skipped to the end, so this may be answered already, but I don’t think so:

Can I get a “baseline” or good definition of “sexual arousal?” If anything sexually arousing is a sin, I couldn’t get near or even think of my GF! That is, being around here is “sexually arousing” if I am understanding this correctly. Ugh, what am I trying to say here…umm…basically being close/next to her “arouses” desire…(?)

If I understand correctly, we have sinned in the past because we kissed passionately and that led to sin…several…multiple times . Other times, most of the time, it’s not a problem at all, really.

Well, I can’t articulate my thoughts very well, but maybe you can interpret them better than I can convey them!

 

[DL82]

One of the psalms (can’t find it at the moment, but remember praying it in the Office of Readings a few weeks back) says “the nations tremble at the mere rumour of my decrees”.

This is the attitude we ought to have towards God’s law. Not asking legalistically ‘how far can I go before it’s mortal sin’ but rather running far from the mere possibility of sin, because you can be certain that the farthest we are away from sin, the closer we are to the place where God can most bless us with His grace.

Orthodox Jews don’t even touch members of the opposite sex other than their wives, not even to shake hands. Didn’t Jesus tell us that unless our righteousness is greater than that of the teachers of the Jewish law, we would not enter the Kingdom?

 

[thomfra]

One of the psalms (can’t find it at the moment, but remember praying it in the Office of Readings a few weeks back) says “the nations tremble at the mere rumour of my decrees”.

This is the attitude we ought to have towards God’s law. Not asking legalistically ‘how far can I go before it’s mortal sin’ but rather running far from the mere possibility of sin, because you can be certain that the farthest we are away from sin, the closer we are to the place where God can most bless us with His grace.

Orthodox Jews don’t even touch members of the opposite sex other than their wives, not even to shake hands. Didn’t Jesus tell us that unless our righteousness is greater than that of the teachers of the Jewish law, we would not enter the Kingdom?

Yes - that sounds like a healthy attitude. We should invite the Taliban to run some courses on gender relations while we’re at it.

 

[JMBNH]

One of the psalms (can’t find it at the moment, but remember praying it in the Office of Readings a few weeks back) says “the nations tremble at the mere rumour of my decrees”.

This is the attitude we ought to have towards God’s law. Not asking legalistically ‘how far can I go before it’s mortal sin’ but rather running far from the mere possibility of sin, because you can be certain that the farthest we are away from sin, the closer we are to the place where God can most bless us with His grace.

Orthodox Jews don’t even touch members of the opposite sex other than their wives, not even to shake hands. Didn’t Jesus tell us that unless our righteousness is greater than that of the teachers of the Jewish law, we would not enter the Kingdom?

Though St Peter and St Paul both say to ‘greet one another with a holy kiss’ and it was a compulsory part of Mass to kiss everyone (regardless of gender initially, though later restricted to same gender to stop certain dodgy guys going too far) on the lips at the peace be with you part

 

[elts1956]

Yes - that sounds like a healthy attitude. We should invite the Taliban to run some courses on gender relations while we’re at it.

One of the psalms (can’t find it at the moment, but remember praying it in the Office of Readings a few weeks back) says “the nations tremble at the mere rumour of my decrees”.

This is the attitude we ought to have towards God’s law. Not asking legalistically ‘how far can I go before it’s mortal sin’ but rather running far from the mere possibility of sin, because you can be certain that the farthest we are away from sin, the closer we are to the place where God can most bless us with His grace.

Orthodox Jews don’t even touch members of the opposite sex other than their wives, not even to shake hands. Didn’t Jesus tell us that unless our righteousness is greater than that of the teachers of the Jewish law, we would not enter the Kingdom?

Hello. Don’t know how old you are, or whether you are Catholic, or what kind of Catholic education you have had, but DL82 has quoted the correct stance of the church:

“Not asking LEGALISTICALLY ‘how far can I go before it’s mortal sin’ but rather running far from the mere possibility of sin, because you can be certain that the farthest we are away from sin, the closer we are to the place where God can most bless us with His grace.”

God is not involved with the Taliban as far as I know.

With freedoms come responsibility. Responsibility for self and others. In this day it seems everyone wants the freedom without taking resposibility.

If you really care about the rights and wrongs of your attitude, check with your Parish Priest if you have one. He will set you straight.

 

[elts1956]

Though St Peter and St Paul both say to ‘greet one another with a holy kiss’ and it was a compulsory part of Mass to kiss everyone (regardless of gender initially, though later restricted to same gender to stop certain dodgy guys going too far) on the lips at the peace be with you part

No one on this thread has specified the kind of kissing s/he is talking about. I don’t think they were talking about " a holy kiss", but kissing for sexual gratification.