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BlaineTog
Guest
Don’t I know it. Nevertheless, while it’s never good to give someone an opening to mistrust you, chances are they’ll find one no matter what you do.
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Veritas248
Guest
I’ve got a passage from a book of questions asked by Catholic teens. It seems to answer the original question: “Although it is exciting, passionate kissing or embracing can be a near occasion of sin and is probably venially sinful. In an of itself it is not a mortal sin, but it naturally stimulates desire for more intimate contact. Two unmarried people should avoid getting “hot and heavy” with deep kissing, because this almost always leads to more serious actions(1 Thess 4:3-8).”- Did Adam and Eve Have a Belly Button? and 199 Other Questions from Catholic Teenagers. - Matthew J. Pinto.
Seems cut and dry.
Seems cut and dry.
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crenfro
Guest
Oh me, I’ve been in 12 step groups for sexual addiction and when you play with fire you always get burned. Once the rationalizations start, better run the other way. Don’t think, just get out of there then get to confession. How important is your immortal soul to you?
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thomfra
Guest
yeah, but lets be honest, 99.9999% of people are not sex addicts, and will not become sex addicts by passionate kissing.
I think it should be encouraged. It really is a lost art.
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elts1956
Guest
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BlaineTog
Guest
Sigh
Passionate kissing does not ineluctably lead to sex. The generalization that it does may generally be true, but it can’t always be taken as a given.
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Veritas248
Guest
Doesn’t have to be sex. Just lustful thoughts are sufficent. I thought that was apparent. I mean according to Christ, if you look at a woman with lust, you have commited adultery in your heart.
Since adultery is a mortal sin, putting yourself in the way of it is foolish.
Since adultery is a mortal sin, putting yourself in the way of it is foolish.
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crenfro
Guest
Here is what’re considered mortal sins under the 6th commandment, taken from one of the best examinations of conscience I’ve ever seen from web.archive.org/web/20020305105633/www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/examination.html
To economize space I’ve only included what is relevant to this discussion.
To economize space I’ve only included what is relevant to this discussion.
- You shall not commit adultery.
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- Dressing or acting in a manner intended to cause arousal in another (spouses excepted)
- Kissing or touching another passionately for the purpose of arousal (spouses excepted)
- Allowing another to kiss or touch you in a sexual manner (spouses excepted)
- Intentionally causing a sexual climax outside of intercourse
- Onanism, i.e. intentional withdrawal and non-vaginal ejaculation
- Flagrant immodesty in dress
- Destroying the innocence of another by seducing or introducing them to immorality
- Lust in the heart (“if I could I would”)
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BlaineTog
Guest
Nor does it ineluctably lead to lustful thoughts.
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Veritas248
Guest
It still puts you in danger of commiting aformentioned sins.
That alone makes it foolish.
That alone makes it foolish.
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BlaineTog
Guest
Maybe it puts you in danger.
This is what I meant when I was talking about generalizations: they don’t apply universally.
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Alterum
Guest
Sadly, one can apply this logic to any occasion of sin: “Maybe it’s an occasion for you, but not for me.”
Your response, beyond peradventure, is true. Not everyone will fall into a sin if he enters an occasion of sin. But if your response is merely meant to indicate that some people may think it highly unlikely for them to fall into sin if they engage in passionate kissing, and that moreover they may be correct, you’re completely missing the mark.
After all, that is already conceptually acknowledged by the term ‘occasion of sin’. An occasion of sin is a generalization: it says that, rationally-speaking, one should avoid such-and-such a situation unless absolutely necessary because it is morally dangerous. In the case of passionate kissing in particular, I would say that heroic self-control must be exercised by both you and your partner in order to avoid being sexually stimulated by an act that by its very nature is geared toward sexual stimulation. In whatever unmeritedly high opinion we regard our abilities, as a matter of prudential practice and good judgment we must avoid occasions of sin.
Now deliberate sexual stimulation (even in thought) is mortally sinful. Therefore entering an occasion of sexual sin is also mortally sinful. But let us suppose arguendo that it’s not. Let us suppose that passionate kissing is, for whatever incoherent reason, a nearly-insignificant offense against chastity. It is, nevertheless, still an offense: a venial sin that must be avoided, for the benefit of your soul and your partner’s soul. As another person noted, you ought not to play with fire; nor ought you to bring the flame near to those whom you love.
[Actually, I’ve given criteria which I think must be satisfied if one is to engage in passionate kissing with a clean conscience: (1) He must be almost certain that it will not be libidinous for him or his partner; (2) He must be almost certain that it is not an occasion of sin properly-so-called; (3) He must be able to clearly delineate under which circumstances passionate kissing, which is *usually sinful, becomes acceptable – and he must do so without reference to feelings, because that which is sinful in the absence of some feeling is not rendered morally acceptable by its presence. I’ve also argued that one cannot reasonably expect to satisfy these criteria.]
Of course, as I’ve already pointed out, passionate kissing constitutes actual sin, being libidinous per se, because it involves the prolonged stimulation of erogenous zones. That sort of activity is prima facie inappropriate prior to marriage. We’ve seen numerous Catholic guides advising the same. I challenge you to find one supporting your position. Pardon my saying so, but it just looks like you’re in denial to me.
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BlaineTog
Guest
I fail to see the issue. What’s the problem with everyone being tempted differently? What about that is inconsistent or bad?
Because you know me better than I know myself after reading a handful of posts on a particular subject on a message board? Doesn’t that seem rather presumptuous? That’s my whole point: not that passionate kissing shouldn’t be tagged as a potential occasion for sin (because in general, it is), only that we shouldn’t presume that it’s going to be one for everyone, because not everyone works exactly the same, because people are different.
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JimG
Guest
Everyone knows that with respect to sexual customs, human beings passed a critical evolutionary point sometime in the decades of the 1970’s or 80’s and beyond, resulting in a general immunity to those sexual temptations which had so afflicted previous generations. The whole area of sex has now been so neutralized as to be no longer worrisome. That’s why we now have such a sexually tranquil society.
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Alterum
Guest
Yes, completely.
There’s the issue. You don’t understand what an occasion of sin is. Now if you’ll kindly concede that “potential occasion of sin” is redundant, we may both call passionate kissing an occasion of sin, conclude that it’s always wrong, and be done with it. Thanks
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Alterum
Guest
As Muggeridge said, man has created his own impotence out of his own erotomania.
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Veritas248
Guest
Good joke.
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BlaineTog
Guest
First, I don’t appreciate your tone. I’m trying to be charitable here, though I admit my patience is becoming frayed as the result of near constant repetition. Thank you.
As for your objection, I understand what an “occasion of sin” is completely. It’s any time when, due to the confluence of events, you are at risk of sinning. The reason passionate kissing is only “potentially” an occasion is because it has the potential to be an occasion of sin, depending on the particulars. It isn’t so much redundant as emphasizing my point: that while for some people (perhaps many people) in many (perhaps most) situations, passionate kissing would constitute an occasion of sin, it does not always constitute such an occasion for everyone. I’m not saying “passionate kissing is a-ok,” but “passionate kissing may be ok, and discernment is up to the individual, though realistically speaking you should probably place the bias against it.”
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iaskquestions
Guest
Yes. I too have the same opinion. You may think you’re in control but your partner may lose control! And your partner may end up sinning (lustful thinking) because of you, and ultimately you will be accountable for making him/her fall into sin.
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Ruthie
Guest
Well, speaking as a devil’s advocate, I can think of a few times in my misspent youth when passionate kissing was not an occasion of sin for me.
But… I was being kissed passionately, but felt no passion (quite the reverse). So in fact I was not active (kissing passionately), but was passive (being kissed passionately).
Putting it into my current spirituality, I was sinning by allowing the guy to passionately kiss me - I was being an occasion of sin for him, even though I was uninterested. He thought he’d get me to go further, you see… He was trying his best to tempt me into sin, which is a sin in itself.
Blaine, the point is that you can’t kiss passionately without passion! And when that passion is sexual, it can tempt you to go further, and that’s why it’s a near occasion of sin!
With love,
Ruthie
But… I was being kissed passionately, but felt no passion (quite the reverse). So in fact I was not active (kissing passionately), but was passive (being kissed passionately).
Putting it into my current spirituality, I was sinning by allowing the guy to passionately kiss me - I was being an occasion of sin for him, even though I was uninterested. He thought he’d get me to go further, you see… He was trying his best to tempt me into sin, which is a sin in itself.
Blaine, the point is that you can’t kiss passionately without passion! And when that passion is sexual, it can tempt you to go further, and that’s why it’s a near occasion of sin!
With love,
Ruthie
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