Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?

[Elizabeth502]

Yes. But that is irrelevant, because Sacred Tradition and the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are not

really? How about celibacy? How about annulments…I am all for tradition, but don’t get carried away.

By the way, I am in favor of celibacy…I am just making a point

A point that is irrelevant.

Celibacy is not a doctrine of the Church. It is a changeable discipline. Huge and radical difference between the two categories: unchanging doctrine and changeable discipline. The former has the seal of the Holy Spirit behind it, promised by Jesus Himself.

Annulments have to do with canon law, which discuss legal church procedures and which is also a different category than the moral absolutes within doctrine. And an annulment is not a divorce.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Argentina has a total population of 41 million - only slightly larger than California.
Buenos Aires has a population of 2.9 million. Not even in the top 50 worldwide.
Argentina is located at the southernmost tip of South America…not exactly the crossroads of the world.

Francis will do fine, but he’s not in Kansas anymore.

Randy,

It may be because I am from Oregon that I take issue with this attitude. It’s the attitude we get from all those eastern establishment types that know everything - that think we are still fending off “indians” out here in the backwoods of Oregon – and should just leave everything to them. I look at the eastern establishment and think they shouldn’t be giving advice to anyone on anything – perhaps we americans should be more humble, take a look at our own house, and then open our ears and try listening–it may well be that what we need is a good dose of medicine from Kansas. I guess I am unclear as to what the population of a nation has to do with one’s ability to be informed and knowledgeable about what is going on in the world and what the world needs. It seems to me americans are the last ones who know what they need – look at this nation as it sinks deeper and deeper into its adictions and continually redefines immorality as morality. Perhaps pope Francis has seen something, recognized something that we have not. Perhaps we have been blinded, in ways that we do not recognize by the culture we have been raised in. Of course I am just a dumb hick form Oregon so what do I know. I will end with this – it is always amusing to meet someone from New York and when they find out you’re from Oregon have them ask, “Oh do you know so and so?” – makes you wonder who’s out of touch. End of rant and apology extended for any lack of charity exhibited - I am a sinful man.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

The

 

[Starrsmother]

Randy,

It may be because I am from Oregon that I take issue with this attitude. It’s the attitude we get from all those eastern establishment types that know everything - that think we are still fending off “indians” out here in the backwoods of Oregon – and should just leave everything to them. I look at the eastern establishment and think they shouldn’t be giving advice to anyone on anything – perhaps we americans should be more humble, take a look at our own house, and then open our ears and try listening–it may well be that what we need is a good dose of medicine from Kansas. I guess I am unclear as to what the population of a nation has to do with one’s ability to be informed and knowledgeable about what is going on in the world and what the world needs. It seems to me americans are the last ones who know what they need – look at this nation as it sinks deeper and deeper into its adictions and continually redefines immorality as morality. Perhaps pope Francis has seen something, recognized something that we have not. Perhaps we have been blinded, in ways that we do not recognize by the culture we have been raised in. Of course I am just a dumb hick form Oregon so what do I know. I will end with this – it is always amusing to meet someone from New York and when they find out you’re from Oregon have them ask, “Oh do you know so and so?” – makes you wonder who’s out of touch. End of rant and apology extended for any lack of charity exhibited - I am a sinful man.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

The

Mark–Just sidebar–I’m from Houston, Texas–currently live in Alaska for just a little while longer til I retire–can’t wait and all that. (what a hell-hole it is up here! LOL!) Ayway, I went to my grad program back east at Tufts and I’ll never forget when a classmate from NYC discovered that I was from Houston. She asked me if I knew “so-and-so” just as matter-of-factly as if the woman were my next door neighbor or some such. I said that I didn’t think I did know her–so she went through this long diatribe describing the person–as if surely I must have simply forgotten her name. So I asked her again, “No, I don’t think I know her. Where does she live?” The woman looked me right in the eye and said “Amarillo.”

What she didn’t realize, of course, is that there are millions of people in Houston–and that’s before you get to the suburbs. Even if the person she was talking about had lived in Houston, unless our paths crossed through work, I probably wouldn’t know her–even if she lived in the same general area as I did.

BUT, even crazier: Houston is to Amarillo as Oregon is to—well Tijuana! LOL! Anyway–I get your point and had to smile when I read it!

 

[Randy_Carson]

What has the population of Argentina got to do with anything? And comparing it to California is a bit derisory. How many Catholics are there in California?

Are you saying that Popes from countries with larger general populations are somehow more qualified to be a better Pope? What nonsense.

The population of Italy is only 59 million. Does that mean that the Church has gotten it wrong all those times when it chose an Italian Pope?

As far as Catholicism goes, South America is the Catholic ‘heartland’ of the world. It seems very appropriate that the Holy Spirit has guided our cardinals to choose a South-American pope.

My point was that he is now head of a Church with more than a billion members…he’s center stage in a much larger venue.

 

[TexanKnight]

A point that is irrelevant.

Celibacy is not a doctrine of the Church. It is a changeable discipline. Huge and radical difference between the two categories: unchanging doctrine and changeable discipline. The former has the seal of the Holy Spirit behind it, promised by Jesus Himself.

Annulments have to do with canon law, which discuss legal church procedures and which is also a different category than the moral absolutes within doctrine. And an annulment is not a divorce.

you just made my point…

thank you

 

[Brendan_64]

My point was that he is now head of a Church with more than a billion members…he’s center stage in a much larger venue.

And this is the same with any other pope we have ever had (at least since we have had Popes that venture out of Rome). How was is a pope from Argentina any different in this regard than say a pope from Germany was, or a pope from Poland was, or the numerous popes before that from Italy?

Is there a particular issue with a pope from Argentina? Is it because he is from South America? Or is it because he is from a country that is very different in culture and outlook from the USA?

I really cannot see why Pope Francis would have any particular difficulties, because of his origins, that our previous popes would have had.

Our faith is truly worldwide. It is certainly particularly a religion of the ‘West’. South America is the Catholic heartland of the planet. Why shouldn’t our pope come from there?

 

[Brendan_64]

Our faith is truly worldwide. It is certainly particularly a religion of the ‘West’.

I meant to say. "It certainly** isn’t **particularly a religion of the ‘West’.

 

[Starrsmother]

And this is the same with any other pope we have ever had (at least since we have had Popes that venture out of Rome). How was is a pope from Argentina any different in this regard than say a pope from Germany was, or a pope from Poland was, or the numerous popes before that from Italy?

Is there a particular issue with a pope from Argentina? Is it because he is from South America? Or is it because he is from a country that is very different in culture and outlook from the USA?

I really cannot see why Pope Francis would have any particular difficulties, because of his origins, that our previous popes would have had.

Our faith is truly worldwide. It is certainly particularly a religion of the ‘West’. South America is the Catholic heartland of the planet. Why shouldn’t our pope come from there?

I’ll put it this way. I suspect that if there ever is a pope from the USA–he may have an interestingly different take on some of the “big issues facing the church today”. His views will be forged from being a priest, bishop and cardinal over some area like San Francisco–or perhaps Detroit–or maybe even (heaven help the man) Washington DC. It will be interesting if such ever happened–which believe me I am as doubtful will happen in the next 1000 years or so as anyone else. But if it did happen, it would be interesting–I’ll just say that.

 

[Elizabeth502]

How was is a pope from Argentina any different in this regard than say a pope from Germany was, or a pope from Poland was, or the numerous popes before that from Italy?

One’s culture of origin always affects perspective, perception, outlook, priorities, and language. It’s why BXVI’s and JP2’s visions and priorities were different from each other, as well.

 

[Brendan_64]

One’s culture of origin always affects perspective, perception, outlook, priorities, and language. It’s why BXVI’s and JP2’s visions and priorities were different from each other, as well.

I agree with you on that. However that doesn’t mean that a pope is from Argentina is somehow disadvantaged because he isn’t culturally from the ‘West’. Ours is a worldwide Faith and South America is the Catholic heartland of the planet.

I’ll put it this way. I suspect that if there ever is a pope from the USA–he may have an interestingly different take on some of the “big issues facing the church today”. His views will be forged from being a priest, bishop and cardinal over some area like San Francisco–or perhaps Detroit–or maybe even (heaven help the man) Washington DC.

Why would that make him at an advantage or better equipped to be Pope? How would that be more relevant than a man whose views were forged from being a priest, bishop and cardinal in the poverty stricken, drug-sodden, prostitute ridden, gang infested, slums of Buenos Aires?

Ours is a worldwide faith What percentage of Catholics live in the USA? 6%? Are the issues particularly concerning that small percentage more crucial than the issues facing the bulk of Catholics who live in the developing nations (particularly in South America)?

 

[Starrsmother]

I agree with you on that. However that doesn’t mean that a pope is from Argentina is somehow disadvantaged because he isn’t culturally from the ‘West’. Ours is a worldwide Faith and South America is the Catholic heartland of the planet.

Why would that make him at an advantage or better equipped to be Pope? How would that be more relevant than a man whose views were forged from being a priest, bishop and cardinal in the poverty stricken, drug-sodden, prostitute ridden, gang infested, slums of Buenos Aires?

Ours is a worldwide faith What percentage of Catholics live in the USA? 6%? Are the issues particularly concerning that small percentage more crucial than the issues facing the bulk of Catholics who live in the developing nations (particularly in South America)?

I didn’t say that it would give him an ADVANTAGE–though if he were from any of the three cities I mentioned above, it might make him more likely to be on medically prescribed antidepressants or even antipsychotics! LOL! It would, however give him a different PERSPECTIVE based on his very different life experiences. That’s all I am implying.

 

[Brendan_64]

It would, however give him a different PERSPECTIVE based on his very different life experiences. That’s all I am implying.

And how would that ‘different perspective’ be any more valuable than having a perspective based on where the current Pope has come from? You might as well say that being from Africa, or Malaysia, or India would give him a different perspective. He can’t be from everywhere, and a perspective based on the USA is not more valuable (or more ‘different’) than one based upon any other place on the planet? The USA is but a very small part of the Catholic population worldwide, a USA-based perspective is not of particular value to a pope than perspectives originating from elsewhere.

 

[Starrsmother]

And how would that ‘different perspective’ be any more valuable than having a perspective based on where the current Pope has come from? You might as well say that being from Africa, or Malaysia, or India would give him a different perspective. He can’t be from everywhere, and a perspective based on the USA is not more valuable (or more ‘different’) than one based upon any other place on the planet? The USA is but a very small part of the Catholic population worldwide, a USA-based perspective is not of particular value to a pope than perspectives originating from elsewhere.

I think it would be AS valuable is all I said–valuable in perhaps a useful and different way, However, a pope from the USA is not going to happen any time soon in my opinion. There is just a far too deep of an entrenchment in European choices–which of course is why the choosing of a pope from Argentina was seen as such a surprising and awesome choice when it actually occurred. Twenty five years ago, it wouldn’t have occurred–and it’s great that this time it did occur!. The Catholic church in the USA is a relatively small piece of the Catholic church as a whole. Yet, as a super-power and a “rich” country, we impact the rest of the world in HUGE ways with our life-style, music, clothing, technology, culture, movie stars, and yes, even our attitudes towards religion and morality or lack thereof! I think almost anyone would recognize that simple fact. People are willing to swim from Cuba on rafts to get here or walk across deserts from Mexico to do the same. People all over the world look toward America --watch our movies and TV, read our magazines, even listen to our president yak on and on. And my only point is that the Catholic church in the USA has some serious issues and BIG problems facing it–which need addressed. My hope --and belief as an optimist–is that Pope Francis, as the holy, humble man he has shown himself to be will include in his inner circle, advisers from the Catholic community in the USA and perhaps listen closely to them and define some ways to lead the church here back to some of the piety and morality that is more familiar in Catholic communities in other countries.

 

[Brendan_64]

The Catholic church in the USA is a relatively small piece of the Catholic church as a whole. Yet, as a super-power and a “rich” country, we impact the rest of the world in HUGE ways with our life-style, music, clothing, technology, culture, movie stars, and yes, even our attitudes towards religion and morality or lack thereof!

I think you vastly overate the USA’s influence on Catholicism. Honestly, outside of the USA, people don’t give a second thought as to what is going on within the Catholic Church in the USA.

I think almost anyone would recognize that simple fact.

Not in terms of it’s influence on the Catholic faith they wouldn’t.

People are willing to swim from Cuba on rafts to get here or walk across deserts from Mexico to do the same.

People do similar things to get into Europe. It is to do with economic inequalities in the world, nothing else.

People all over the world look toward America --watch our movies and TV, read our magazines, even listen to our president yak on and on.

People all over the world don’t actually look towards the USA. That is an American myth. You have some decent TV shows, but most of them are poor quality rubbish. Apart from ‘Time’ and a couple of others, people aren’t really interested in your magazines. CNN news is pretty decent, but so too is Sky, the BBC and Al-Jazeera.

My hope --and belief as an optimist–is that Pope Francis, as the holy, humble man he has shown himself to be will include in his inner circle, advisers from the Catholic community in the USA and perhaps listen closely to them and define some ways to lead the church here back to some of the piety and morality that is more familiar in Catholic communities in other countries.

I hope he does deal with this, just as I hope he deals with serious issues from other nations across the globe where the Faithful dwell.

 

[Starrsmother]

I think you vastly overate the USA’s influence on Catholicism. Honestly, outside of the USA, people don’t give a second thought as to what is going on within the Catholic Church in the USA.

Not in terms of it’s influence on the Catholic faith they wouldn’t.

People do similar things to get into Europe. It is to do with economic inequalities in the world, nothing else.

People all over the world don’t actually look towards the USA. That is an American myth. You have some decent TV shows, but most of them are poor quality rubbish. Apart from ‘Time’ and a couple of others, people aren’t really interested in your magazines. CNN news is pretty decent, but so too is Sky, the BBC and Al-Jazeera.

Well, your opinion is interesting and you certainly have every right to it. I just see things slightly differently is all.
I hope he does deal with this, just as I hope he deals with serious issues from other nations across the globe where the Faithful dwell.

 

[Brendan_64]

Well, your opinion is interesting and you certainly have every right to it. I just see things slightly differently is all.

I would suggest that your view of how the world views the USA is based up on how you, as an American, view your own nation. People outside of the USA view the USA very differently from the way Americans view the USA.

 

[severus68]

And how would that ‘different perspective’ be any more valuable than having a perspective based on where the current Pope has come from? You might as well say that being from Africa, or Malaysia, or India would give him a different perspective. He can’t be from everywhere, and a perspective based on the USA is not more valuable (or more ‘different’) than one based upon any other place on the planet? The USA is but a very small part of the Catholic population worldwide, a USA-based perspective is not of particular value to a pope than perspectives originating from elsewhere.

 

[severus68]

I think you vastly overate the USA’s influence on Catholicism. Honestly, outside of the USA, people don’t give a second thought as to what is going on within the Catholic Church in the USA.

Not in terms of it’s influence on the Catholic faith they wouldn’t.

People do similar things to get into Europe. It is to do with economic inequalities in the world, nothing else.

People all over the world don’t actually look towards the USA. That is an American myth. You have some decent TV shows, but most of them are poor quality rubbish. Apart from ‘Time’ and a couple of others, people aren’t really interested in your magazines. CNN news is pretty decent, but so too is Sky, the BBC and Al-Jazeera.

I hope he does deal with this, just as I hope he deals with serious issues from other nations across the globe where the Faithful dwell.

All so true.

 

[gracepoole]

I think you vastly overate the USA’s influence on Catholicism. Honestly, outside of the USA, people don’t give a second thought as to what is going on within the Catholic Church in the USA.

Not in terms of it’s influence on the Catholic faith they wouldn’t.

People do similar things to get into Europe. It is to do with economic inequalities in the world, nothing else.

People all over the world don’t actually look towards the USA. That is an American myth. You have some decent TV shows, but most of them are poor quality rubbish. Apart from ‘Time’ and a couple of others, people aren’t really interested in your magazines. CNN news is pretty decent, but so too is Sky, the BBC and Al-Jazeera.

I hope he does deal with this, just as I hope he deals with serious issues from other nations across the globe where the Faithful dwell.

All so true.

Bingo! (And I’ll take the BBC over American news any day.)

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Too much arguing.

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