Is porn that bad for our society

[John21652]

**Cont.d **

Again, I agree that moral codes have been relaxed. But I also believe it has given way to hyper-intense sexuality. (We can argue here and there are no hard and fast proof either way).

Err, that’s what I said Robert. Morals gave way to uncontrolled liscentiousness and hedonistic behaviour. Morals as a control mechanism went first. Simply look up when single parent families began to increase exponentially. Or look up divorce rates which have been climbing exponentially comparitively recently. It’s not hard to figure which is the horse and which is the cart!

There has been rapid change in virtually all facets of our society which has led to a certain chaos in moral values

Rapid change I dealt with. Moral codes are interna;lised modes of behaviour. Why would ‘rapid change’ cause these moral codes to break down? perhaps it’s because alternative forms of ‘morality’ were espoused and then inculcated into the younger generations?

. The breakdown of moral codes has been happening much longer than the past 20 years. Porn, like Playboy, was popular as early as the 60’s!

Agreed! The so called sexual revolution is usually accepted as starting in the 1960’s. Devlin’s debate with hart ensued because there was a push in England in the 1960s to decriminalise homosexuality. It was decriminalised and now it is rampant in the U.K. It even transcends religion there!

I agree that these moral values must ultimately be reinstated but not coercively.

Well, voluntary morality doesn’t seem to be working too well. Neither has it down through history.

There must be a change in the person whereby these moral values become a part of the individual!!! Forced coerciveness was never the answer!!!

Moral codes are taught and learnt Robert. That’s how good parents prevent their children from killing one another!! The trouble is, kids and children have a habit of forgetting their moral lessons when they choose to do otherwise. That’s why we have laws against things like assaulting another person, stealing and animal cruelty.

Same holds true with religion. In the past it was blindly past down through the family–it was not truly a part of the person!!! This is what happened to me as a Catholic.

Once again, you are making the mistake of thinking that what happened to you has happened to everyone. My experience is the exact opposite of what you describe!!

Like many, I abandoned the Catholic faith and became an atheist for a good portion of my adult life. But then I came back, but now the Catholic faith was a choice that became a part of me.

You remembered your moral lessons. Well done!!

 

[Robert_Sock]

John21652,

1. We agree that porn is disgusting and evil, but we disagree whether or not it serves a purpose in redirecting our sexual urges into a “sewage system” similar to what St Augustine suggests is the case for prostitution.
2. We agree that moral values must be reinstated, but we disagree that morals must be internalized by the individual, and not coercively by society, family, or religion.

The rest of our disagreements is bickering about things that cannot be proved one way or the other! My contention in my OP was to enlighten forum members of the utility of porn in our society, and the above two points does just that.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Purely hypothetical . . . re those “uncontrollable” sexual urges:

If someone broke into your room when you were watching your skin flick and getting ready to do you-know-what, and pointed a gun to your head and told you to stop, would you stop, or would your “uncontrollable” urge compel you to continue and let yourself get shot?

That’s all I have to ask.

 

[jsaldar]

Simple:

Porn is lust. Lust is the opposite of Love. Is Lust a sin or is Love a sin?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Purely hypothetical . . . re those “uncontrollable” sexual urges:

If someone broke into your room when you were watching your skin flick and getting ready to do you-know-what, and pointed a gun to your head and told you to stop, would you stop, or would your “uncontrollable” urge compel you to continue and let yourself get shot?

That’s all I have to ask.

I fail to see what this has to do with the issue at hand! All this would suggest is that porn and masturbation are not uncontrollable in an absolute sense. It says nothing about whether or not porn serves a purpose in redirecting our sexual urges, as raw sewage, into a socially acceptable utility for masturbation.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Simple:

Porn is lust. Lust is the opposite of Love. Is Lust a sin or is Love a sin?

I’ve stated numerous times that porn is disgusting and evil, but that it all has to do with the lesser of two evils.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I fail to see what this has to do with the issue at hand! All this would suggest is that porn and masturbation are not uncontrollable in an absolute sense. It says nothing about whether or not porn serves a purpose in redirecting our sexual urges, as raw sewage, into a socially acceptable utility for masturbation.

You admit, then, that they aren’t “uncontrollable” - after that, it’s simply a matter of degree of control and motivation to control. Just as it is for the domestic violence issue - the abuser gets away with it as long as there is no one to stop him (or in some cases, her). They don’t try their bullying with those bigger and stronger who can beat them up.

I don’t think porn OR prostitution have any redeeming value, I believe they ultimately hurt us all.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You admit, then, that they aren’t “uncontrollable” - after that, it’s simply a matter of degree of control and motivation to control. Just as it is for the domestic violence issue - the abuser gets away with it as long as there is no one to stop him (or in some cases, her). They don’t try their bullying with those bigger and stronger who can beat them up.

I don’t think porn OR prostitution have any redeeming value, I believe they ultimately hurt us all.

Perhaps the phrase “hyper-intense” is more fitting. Please note all the threads that complain that their libido is “uncontrollable!”

 

[John21652]

John21652,

1. We agree that porn is disgusting and evil, but we disagree whether or not it serves a purpose in redirecting our sexual urges into a “sewage system” similar to what St Augustine suggests is the case for prostitution.

 

[John21652]

In post #43 3Doctors posted a brilliant hypothetical, which was -

Purely hypothetical . . . re those “uncontrollable” sexual urges:

If someone broke into your room when you were watching your skin flick and getting ready to do you-know-what, and pointed a gun to your head and told you to stop, would you stop, or would your “uncontrollable” urge compel you to continue and let yourself get shot?

That’s all I have to ask.

And your prevaricating response is this -

I fail to see what this has to do with the issue at hand! All this would suggest is that porn and masturbation are not uncontrollable in an absolute sense. It says nothing about whether or not porn serves a purpose in redirecting our sexual urges, as raw sewage, into a socially acceptable utility for masturbation.

What 3Doctors asked you cuts to the very core of what you are writing of Robert. The underlying premise of your argument is that sexual urges are uncontrollable. Once again, you have sidetepped the argument. This time, however, your prevarication and equivoction are just too obvious.

C’mon Robert, take up 3Doctors challenge and answer the question. Orgasm and bullet in the head, or control yourself and live?!

Also, surely, you can see an anology between 3Doctors holding a gun at your head and the role of the government in enforcing morality. Can you perhaps think of another ‘gun’ that is pointed at your head?

Considering what you have told us on this thread, would it not make more sense to admit that your own personal experiences are colouring your thinking and causing you to justify the use of one evil to control another. Be honest Robert.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well then, if you agree with the statement that porn is disgusting and evil, then, by inference, you are agreeing that it causes harm. You must now unequivocally call for its immediate ban. To do or say otherwise means you condone something which you condemn. That’s illogical.

Again, I’m taking the presupposition that porn is the lesser of two evils–that porn acts as the raw sewage of hyper-intense sexual urges as suggested by St. Augustine.

I’m going to pick you up on this Robert. The notion that the state should have coercive powers concerning morality has been sidetepped by you. All I wrote about Lord Devlin and H.L.A.Hart has been ignored by you. I even pointed out how we actually have morally coercive laws on the statute books already. You know, ones that punish thieves and people bashers. However, you ignore this issue and simply restate that we ‘disagree’. That is intellectual dishonesty Robert. Shape up and debate the issues.

The laws against “thieves” and “people bashers” are indeed there as a coercive measure. But they are nor dealing with the sexual revolution that has taken place in Western societies. Sexual urges are powerful and harmless compared to “people bashing!” Again, I think morals pertaining to the sexual practices of porn and masturbation need to be internalized by the individual and not coercively by society, family and religion. I’m going in circles here simply because you sidestep my issues of a sexual revolution with your nonsense involving irrelevant laws and morals against “thievery” and “people bashing.” Stick to the points of porn and masturbation during the sexual revolution and not other irrelevant laws and morals involving illegal activity!!!

Sidestepping again Robert. For instance you wrote that Victorian England witnessed a major blowout in child and female abuse and you did so without reference to any authoritative sources. I produced a Victorian England Law against exactly what you wrote of, in the context of a debate about whether or not the state should regulate moral behaviour and what did you do? Nothing. You ignored it completely. Now you say this point is bickering. No Robert, it’s not bickering because you wont engage with the points that contradict what it is you are writing of.

My point on the Victorian era was that there were sexual outlets in the family that involved the sexual abuse of children and wives (see the many critiques of Freud in the field of psychology.) Yes, there were coercive measures in place to protect the abuse of children, but the powerful sexual urges still gave way to their abuse. These immoral practices were wide spread even with laws in place and with strong morals against masturbation!!!

I urge you to focus on the points of our disagreements and not get sidetracked by ranting and raving. Again, I’m not here to bicker with you, but to provide the reader with an explanation of how porn is used in our society to deal with the raw sewage of the sexual revolution that is taking place.

 

[Robert_Sock]

What 3Doctors asked you cuts to the very core of what you are writing of Robert. The underlying premise of your argument is that sexual urges are uncontrollable. Once again, you have sidetepped the argument. This time, however, your prevarication and equivoction are just too obvious…

Use the term “powerful urges” or “hyper-intense urges” instead of uncontrollable urges and you’ll catch my drift. All 3Doctors did was show that masturbation and the viewing of porn is not “uncontrollable” in the absolute sense. Even with a gun to their head, I think someone with hyper-intense sexual urges would indeed eventually masturbate! Again, note all the threads on “uncontrollable” masturbation that exists on this forum.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not only is porn already a terrible private sin that leaves images in a man’s mind that corrupt his view of women and God’s creation/intentions, it is a stepping stone, a gateway drug of sorts. It creates an idealized sexual playground mentality and rarely, if not dealt with, doesn’t lead to adultery or other sexual behaviors that are dangerous. It breaks up marriages, makes men turn inward, degrades women, many porn stars frequently have abortions, it puts money in the hands of sleezy porn-pushers, and we are told by the Lord that private lust is the same as the real thing. There are a million reasons NOT to have porn, precious few reasons for keeping it.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Not only is porn already a terrible private sin that leaves images in a man’s mind that corrupt his view of women and God’s creation/intentions, it is a stepping stone, a gateway drug of sorts. It creates an idealized sexual playground mentality and rarely, if not dealt with, doesn’t lead to adultery or other sexual behaviors that are dangerous. It breaks up marriages, makes men turn inward, degrades women, many porn stars frequently have abortions, it puts money in the hands of sleezy porn-pushers, and we are told by the Lord that private lust is the same as the real thing. There are a million reasons NOT to have porn, precious few reasons for keeping it.

Your response is direct and concise. You also raise good points for the abolishing of porn, which I think will eventually happen. But in the mean time, I think God has a plan for allowing porn to exist! That plan is that it acts as a raw sewage pipe for powerful sexual urges that are a part of the sexual revolution, similar to what St Augustine viewed for the existence of prostitution. I always believe that God allows evil to exist because He can bring a greater good from it!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Is there any evil from Satan that God cannot bring about a greater good? If so, what would that greater good be in the case of porn? Would it not be that porn acts as the raw sewage pipe that expels our hyper intense sexual urges into a wasteland, similar to what St Augustine proposed in the case of prostitution (see post number 10)?

 

[michelleds]

. . . Would it not be that porn acts as the raw sewage pipe that expels our hyper intense sexual urges into a wasteland. . . ?

No. Here’s the problem with your analogy. Your underlying presupposition is that masturbation is a necessity, that at least for some people, the inability to masturbate or release sexual urges, will lead to some catastrophic result. I do not agree with this presupposition. Nor does the Catechism.

but even if I did grant your underlying premise, you still have the problem of the addictive nature of porn. it is not a sewage pipe as you say, unless it’s clogged. A person who starts with some “simple” porn won’t likely stick with that. he or she will continue to see those images even when not viewing it, will eventually need to refresh the images with more, and then the simple won’t be enough.

to continue with your analogy, the raw sewage merely runs into the backyard where it eventually builds up, overflows, and flows back into the house.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No. Here’s the problem with your analogy. Your underlying presupposition is that masturbation is a necessity, that at least for some people, the inability to masturbate or release sexual urges, will lead to some catastrophic result. I do not agree with this presupposition. Nor does the Catechism.

but even if I did grant your underlying premise, you still have the problem of the addictive nature of porn. it is not a sewage pipe as you say, unless it’s clogged. A person who starts with some “simple” porn won’t likely stick with that. he or she will continue to see those images even when not viewing it, will eventually need to refresh the images with more, and then the simple won’t be enough.

to continue with your analogy, the raw sewage merely runs into the backyard where it eventually builds up, overflows, and flows back into the house.

You entirely ignored my argument. Namely, is there any evil from Satan that God cannot bring about a greater good? If so, what would that greater good be in the case of porn? Surely my contention of porn acting as a sewage pipe is a plausible answer!

Also, I do not agree that the inability to masturbate or release sexual urges will lead to some catastrophic result. For example, people who were castrated cannot masturbate but do not have anything catastrophic happen to them. However, their sexual urges have been suppressed; there is nothing dynamic happening with them sexually so my analogy does not apply to them.

Yes, the raw sewage pipe does backup for many individuals. They get addicted to porn and find that their sexual urges growing more intensely and the raw sewage spews back upon them. But none of this is inconsistent with the raw sewage analogy in general.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I wish I could share your optimism about the banning of porn. But I don’t think that will EVER happen, no way. It’s too lucrative. It generates so much $$$$ that I don’t think we can fathom it. It’s so ingrained in the culture, so many people involved in it at so many levels, brings in tax dough, and there are legions of free speech folks and smut-peddlers who will fight for it all the way. Plus there are so so so many men secular and, sadly, religious who are addicted to it that there isn’t the will to ban it. It’s a cancer that has spread too far.

Your response is direct and concise. You also raise good points for the abolishing of porn, which I think will eventually happen. But in the mean time, I think God has a plan for allowing porn to exist! That plan is that it acts as a raw sewage pipe for powerful sexual urges that are a part of the sexual revolution, similar to what St Augustine viewed for the existence of prostitution. I always believe that God allows evil to exist because He can bring a greater good from it!

 

[jessiepie]

Is porn really that evil or does it provide a sexual outlet for a hyper-sexualized society?

My personal belief is that porn is, in and of itself, disgusting, but I believe that porn does serve an important service to society in that it does indeed provide a sexual outlet for a hyper-sexualized society. I believe that the biggest evil is in the people watching porn.

You are wrong wrong wrong! God sees no good in porn. Porn is the direct work of the devil. He has found a great way to get his foot in the door and a great way to destroy lives and take people away from ]God… Remember, Our Lady of Fatima warned us. She told us more people go to Hell for sins of the flesh than any other sin! The devil is tricky. We must all pray for discernment.
And by the way, masturbation is a mortal sin. No one should masturbate.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You are wrong wrong wrong! God sees no good in porn. Porn is the direct work of the devil. He has found a great way to get his foot in the door and a great way to destroy lives and take people away from ]God… Remember, Our Lady of Fatima warned us. She told us more people go to Hell for sins of the flesh than any other sin! The devil is tricky. We must all pray for discernment.
And by the way, masturbation is a mortal sin. No one should masturbate.

Is there any evil from Satan that God cannot bring about a greater good? If so, what would that greater good be in the case of porn? Surely my contention of porn acting as a sewage pipe is a plausible answer!

I agree that porn is evil and disgusting, but I also believe that God can bring goon out of ANY evil!