Is porn that bad for our society

[Dave2300]

1. Saying that porn provides a sexual outlet for society is like saying hurting people provides an opportunity for them to heal or to be healed.
   Marriage provides an outlet for sexual energy. It is constructive. Pornography is destructive, and there is not one redeeming quality about it. Not one.
2. Hurting people provides an outlet for our anger, too, by the same logic, rather than keeping that anger within us, by hurting others we would actually be giving God a chance to do even more healing.
3. God can bring good out of evil. He brought good out of Hitler’s killing of six million innocent people. Just because He CAN do it does not mean it is okay to provide Him with the evil from which He would produce good.

The logic of post one is skewed, to say the very least.
To state that porn is not harmful, and then to state the reasons for such a statement, I don’t think anyone reads beyond the first words “porn is not harmful”.

No amount of discussion will make evil a good thing.

To think of any evil as not being that bad, or good in a way, is a serious mistake. It is a complete distortion. Evil is evil. It is never “good”. Good is good.

 

[Robert_Sock]

1. Saying that porn provides a sexual outlet for society is like saying hurting people provides an opportunity for them to heal or to be healed.
   Marriage provides an outlet for sexual energy. It is constructive. Pornography is destructive, and there is not one redeeming quality about it. Not one.
2. Hurting people provides an outlet for our anger, too, by the same logic, rather than keeping that anger within us, by hurting others we would actually be giving God a chance to do even more healing.
3. God can bring good out of evil. He brought good out of Hitler’s killing of six million innocent people. Just because He CAN do it does not mean it is okay to provide Him with the evil from which He would produce good.

The logic of post one is skewed, to say the very least.
To state that porn is not harmful, and then to state the reasons for such a statement, I don’t think anyone reads beyond the first words “porn is not harmful”.

No amount of discussion will make evil a good thing.

To think of any evil as not being that bad, or good in a way, is a serious mistake. It is a complete distortion. Evil is evil. It is never “good”. Good is good.

Do you believe that God can bring about a greater “good” from every evil? Surely you must, or God is not omnipotent!

All I’m trying to say is that porn acts as the raw sewage pipe that expels our hyper-intense sexual urges into a wasteland, similar to what St Augustine proposed in the case of prostitution (see post number 10)! I believe God can bring about a good out of every evil, and the above is what I see as a “good” for porn.

I’m not saying we should condone porn, but be cool, God has everything under control!

 

[centurionguard]

IS PORN BAD FOR SOCIETY?

jesus-passion.com/SEXUALIMMORALITY.htm

 

[michelleds]

Do you believe that God can bring about a greater “good” from every evil? Surely you must, or God is not omnipotent!

All I’m trying to say is that porn acts as the raw sewage pipe that expels our hyper-intense sexual urges into a wasteland, similar to what St Augustine proposed in the case of prostitution (see post number 10)! I believe God can bring about a good out of every evil, and the above is what I see as a “good” for porn.

I’m not saying we should condone porn, but be cool, God has everything under control!

This is faulty logic. The Catechism is very straight forward and clear about how we should think about porn and prostitution.

2354 **Pornography **consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

2355 **Prostitution **does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit. Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.

 

[Robert_Sock]

This is faulty logic. The Catechism is very straight forward and clear about how we should think about porn and prostitution.

2354 **Pornography **consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

2355 **Prostitution **does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit. Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.

Which part of my logic is faulty? I’m aware of the Catechism and** I’m clear that porn and prostitution should never be condoned!** They are both evil which are to be avoided!

However, do you not believe St. Augustine’s allegation that prostitution is the raw sewage that expels our hyper-sexuality into a wasteland? If you accept St Augustine’s allegation, why not apply it to porn as well?

You also avoid addressing directly whether or not God can bring about a greater “good” from every evil! You must address these criticisms to state your case!

 

[michelleds]

Which part of my logic is faulty? I’m aware of the Catechism and I’m clear that porn and prostitution should never be condoned! They are both evil which are to be avoided!

However, do you not believe St. Augustine’s allegation that prostitution is the raw sewage that expels our hyper-sexuality into a wasteland? If you accept St Augustine’s allegation, why not apply it to porn as well?

You also avoid addressing directly whether or not God can bring about a greater “good” from every evil! You must address these criticisms to state your case!

I am saying that the Saints are not infallible.

If you agree that porn and prostitution should never be condoned, then there is NO justification for them, even your sewage pipe.

to “condone” something is:

1. Accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue.
2. Approve or sanction (something), esp. with reluctance

Of course God can bring about good from evil. That does not lead to “we should just chill cuz God’s got it all under control”. Abortion, murder, domestic violence, drug addiction, war, genocide, ethnic cleansing . . . God can and does bring about good from these evils. We CANNOT tolerate, condone, accept, sit by idly, or chill just because God can do so. This is abdicating our roles in this world.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I am saying that the Saints are not infallible.

If you agree that porn and prostitution should never be condoned, then there is NO justification for them, even your sewage pipe.

to “condone” something is:

1. Accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue.
2. Approve or sanction (something), esp. with reluctance

Of course God can bring about good from evil. That does not lead to “we should just chill cuz God’s got it all under control”. Abortion, murder, domestic violence, drug addiction, war, genocide, ethnic cleansing . . . God can and does bring about good from these evils. We CANNOT tolerate, condone, accept, sit by idly, or chill just because God can do so. This is abdicating our roles in this world.

I agree with everything you say! All I wish to do is add a suggestion that there is a hidden “good” in porn in that it can act as a sewage pipe. I also agree that Saints are not infallible, but in this case I’m suggesting that St Augustine has got it right! This all that we are disagreeing about! You’re entitled to your view, and I’m entitled to express mine (and Saint Augustine’s) here.

(It’s also OK for you not to sit back and “chill,” and I agree that we must all be righteous and fight evil when it’s at our doorstep, but I also contend that at some point we must all sit back and “chill” to the multitude of the world’s problems because God has everything under control. We would go nuts otherwise!)

 

[Robert_Sock]

There is one more facet to porn and masturbation that people may want to discuss and that deals with the reinstatement of moral values. I agree with people that moral values must be reinstated, but I may disagree with others that morals pertaining to porn and masturbation must be internalized by the individual, and not produced coercively by society, family, or religion.

 

[John21652]

I agree with everything you say! All I wish to do is add a suggestion that there is a hidden “good” in porn in that it can act as a sewage pipe. I also agree that Saints are not infallible, but in this case I’m suggesting that St Augustine has got it right! This all that we are disagreeing about! You’re entitled to your view, and I’m entitled to express mine (and Saint Augustine’s) here.

(It’s also OK for you not to sit back and “chill,” and I agree that we must all be righteous and fight evil when it’s at our doorstep, but I also contend that at some point we must all sit back and “chill” to the multitude of the world’s problems because God has everything under control. We would go nuts otherwise!)

You are misinterpreting the view expressed by St. Augustine. This was dealt with explicitly in post #35. Up to this point you were condoning pornography, telling us it did some good in society. St. Augustine, of course, knew nothing about pornography as we know it today. He was writing about prostitution and he wondered if it might do something towards reducing licentious behaviour. However, St Augustine wrote that prostitution and its procurement are done by a class of people “…most unchaste in its morals;” and its very existence is “… by the law of order, it is most vile in social condition.”. No rational reading of St. Augustine could possibly arrive at the view that he somehow thinks immorality is a cure for even more immorality. In fact, he lamented the very existence of immorality. So stop pretending you are espousing St. Augustine’s view. It does not even relate to pornography.

 

[John21652]

There is one more facet to porn and masturbation that people may want to discuss and that deals with the reinstatement of moral values. I agree with people that moral values must be reinstated, but I may disagree with others that morals pertaining to porn and masturbation must be internalized by the individual, and not produced coercively by society, family, or religion.

This post of yours is most confusing Robert. Are you saying pornography should be regulated by the state, or regulated by the individual? Please answer, because it looks as though your opinion has swung 180 degrees.

The reinstatement of moral values will only come about when people realise the great harm being done by the relaxation of certain morals. Most critics of pornography and that includes critics who base their criticisms on evaluative science, realise that pornography is addictive. You have admitted as much in previous posts. Now tell me, how are people who are addicted to something ever going to regulate their own behaviour? Drug addicts certainly can’t give up their addictions without a lot of outside help. Compulsive thieves have the same problem. So, how will those who are addicted ever internalise the wrongness of their behaviour?

In post #29 you wrote “…we, as a society, must choose between permissiveness and a dangerous coerciveness.” Now tell me, is it “dangerous coerciveness” to make laws against ilicit drug use? Is it “dangerous coerciveness” to make laws against compulsive theft? After all, those two behaviours are addictions. So why is it “dangerous coerciveness” for the state to re-criminalise pornography, which also leads to addictive behaviour. One merely needs to read through certain threads here on CAF to realise that entire families are being broken up because of porn addictions. One can trawl through the Internet and see the moral outrage being expressed by women’s groups over the objectification of women through porn. When, Robert, will you admit that the “lesser” of the two evils you have been supporting serves no other purpose than to promote just more evil? It wont go away while vested interests seek to profit from it and it wont go away while those vested interests include people addicted to it. The community’s moral outrage must be such that the legislators take action to stem the very obvious evils which flow from porn’s existence.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You are misinterpreting the view expressed by St. Augustine. This was dealt with explicitly in post #35. Up to this point you were condoning pornography, telling us it did some good in society. St. Augustine, of course, knew nothing about pornography as we know it today. He was writing about prostitution and he wondered if it might do something towards reducing licentious behaviour. However, St Augustine wrote that prostitution and its procurement are done by a class of people “…most unchaste in its morals;” and its very existence is “… by the law of order, it is most vile in social condition.”. No rational reading of St. Augustine could possibly arrive at the view that he somehow thinks immorality is a cure for even more immorality. In fact, he lamented the very existence of immorality. So stop pretending you are espousing St. Augustine’s view. It does not even relate to pornography.

OK, let’s forget about St Augustine for a moment (although I certainly think his reasoning implies a raw sewage system that for prostitution that applies to porn), my argument still stands!

 

[Robert_Sock]

This post of yours is most confusing Robert. Are you saying pornography should be regulated by the state, or regulated by the individual? Please answer, because it looks as though your opinion has swung 180 degrees.

The reinstatement of moral values will only come about when people realise the great harm being done by the relaxation of certain morals. Most critics of pornography and that includes critics who base their criticisms on evaluative science, realise that pornography is addictive. You have admitted as much in previous posts. Now tell me, how are people who are addicted to something ever going to regulate their own behaviour? Drug addicts certainly can’t give up their addictions without a lot of outside help. Compulsive thieves have the same problem. So, how will those who are addicted ever internalise the wrongness of their behaviour?

In post #29 you wrote “…we, as a society, must choose between permissiveness and a dangerous coerciveness.” Now tell me, is it “dangerous coerciveness” to make laws against ilicit drug use? Is it “dangerous coerciveness” to make laws against compulsive theft? After all, those two behaviours are addictions. So why is it “dangerous coerciveness” for the state to re-criminalise pornography, which also leads to addictive behaviour. One merely needs to read through certain threads here on CAF to realise that entire families are being broken up because of porn addictions. One can trawl through the Internet and see the moral outrage being expressed by women’s groups over the objectification of women through porn. When, Robert, will you admit that the “lesser” of the two evils you have been supporting serves no other purpose than to promote just more evil? It wont go away while vested interests seek to profit from it and it wont go away while those vested interests include people addicted to it. The community’s moral outrage must be such that the legislators take action to stem the very obvious evils which flow from porn’s existence.

My presupposition is that the individual’s use of pornography and masturbation should be regulated by the individual.

Here you go again comparing the societal dynamics of porn and masturbation to societal dynamics of drug use and thievery! I contend that it is better to compare the societal dynamics of pron and masturbation to that of alcohol use! Neither are illegal in our society! Here, the first step to recovery is for the individual to admit that they have a problem! After that, it is up to the individual to internalize certain morals and values, as taught by society, family and religion, that will prohibit them from partaking in porn and masturbation.

(Like with alcohol and drugs, individuals addicted to porn and masturbation will often benefit from outside help.)

 

[OldYoungGuy]

Unfortunately if you tale an honest look at you sewage hypothesis you’ll find that pornography has not done its job. Instead of flushing the $#%! the toilets have been clogged and are overflowing, causing sewage to seep up to everyone’s feet in the living room. First, take a look at when the industry really started taking off. during the sexual revolution, and did it slow the hyper-sexualization. No. It accelerated it. Secondly, the porn viewer is worse then the porn? I believe the average first time viewer is a male well under the age of reason. It is forced upon children who have no idea what they are getting into, until by the time they realize the devastating affects, they are helplessly addicted, and it is an addiction. Studies show that some of the same chemicals are released into a viewers brain as a drug user.

My last point is…THE VAST MAJORITY OF CONVICTED RAPISTS ADMIT TO HABITUALLY USING PORN. I’d imagine the rest just won’t admit to it. There is absolutely no good that comes from porn. It is Satan’s tool to trap souls, and he’s getting to young boys before they even reach they age of reason.

fightforjustice.blogspot.com/2006/08/pornography-is-teaching-manual-for.html
Read the first paragraph.:dts:

 

[CompSciGuy]

Is porn really that evil or does it provide a sexual outlet for a hyper-sexualized society?

My personal belief is that porn is, in and of itself, disgusting, but I believe that porn does serve an important service to society in that it does indeed provide a sexual outlet for a hyper-sexualized society. I believe that the biggest evil is in the people watching porn.

No.

Since this is the internet and everything is anonymous here, I will confess, I have dealt with pornography addiction. Aside from purity groups in church, regular confession and sacraments, increased prayer life, etc. one of the best things I did during that battle was to completely remove all means of access. I took the internet card out of my computer, and had no internet at home for about two months. Even now, I have my PC loaded up with content filters and accountability software so that there wouldn’t be even the possibility of my returning to that deplorable hellish filth. The absence of pornography actually helped me to recover from the addiction. After not being able to look at porn, my thought processes began to change and I adapted to a life without self-gratification. Not having porn did not compel me to go out and commit sexual crime. So no, I don’t think porn is necessary to prevent sexual crime, and I completely disagree that it “serves an important role” in society, or that it works as an outlet. Frequent use of pornography changes the way you think about yourself and about women. Self-hatred is an obvious result of pornography and autoeroticism. No surprise. Also no surprise that it changes the way you think about women. That’s a given. So if you are spiraling down, losing more and more respect for yourself and for the women you see, don’t you think that is a recipe for complete disaster? Who do you think is more likely to commit rape, someone who frequently indulges in pornography and masturbation, or someone who doesn’t? Do you think that men who commit these crimes do not have a history of such indulgence?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Unfortunately if you tale an honest look at you sewage hypothesis you’ll find that pornography has not done its job. Instead of flushing the $#%! the toilets have been clogged and are overflowing, causing sewage to seep up to everyone’s feet in the living room. First, take a look at when the industry really started taking off. during the sexual revolution, and did it slow the hyper-sexualization. No. It accelerated it. Secondly, the porn viewer is worse then the porn? I believe the average first time viewer is a male well under the age of reason. It is forced upon children who have no idea what they are getting into, until by the time they realize the devastating affects, they are helplessly addicted, and it is an addiction. Studies show that some of the same chemicals are released into a viewers brain as a drug user.

My last point is…THE VAST MAJORITY OF CONVICTED RAPISTS ADMIT TO HABITUALLY USING PORN. I’d imagine the rest just won’t admit to it. There is absolutely no good that comes from porn. It is Satan’s tool to trap souls, and he’s getting to young boys before they even reach they age of reason.

fightforjustice.blogspot.com/2006/08/pornography-is-teaching-manual-for.html
Read the first paragraph.:dts:

I agree that that the raw sewage pipe of backups and spews itself back on the individual, similar to the way alcohol does to the alcoholic. This is where the individual must admit that he/she has a problem. You take selective cases and make them sound normative to the general population. My contention is that, in general, porn acts as a raw sewage pipe. This again is analogous to alcohol use. Legalizing alcohol did not limit its use, but intensified it. Alcohol became a recreation, similar to the way the sexual revolution has become a recreation. Again, porn and masturbation does act as a sewage pipe in general!

You reference that the vast majority of convicted rapists admit to having used pornography is again a very selective generalization. Correlation does not infer causality! According to a study utilizing a national sample of college students, the data showed that there was no correlation between pornography use and aggression against women. What the study did show was that aggression against women was significant only when porn was used by students who harbored a previous hostile masculinity against women (this effect was intensified with the use of alcohol). In other words, it was not the porn per se that was causing aggression against women, but an underlying hostile masculinity! Here, statistical tests showed that porn did not lead to hostile masculinity, but that hostile masculinity led to the use of porn (and alcohol) and subsequent aggression against women.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No.

Since this is the internet and everything is anonymous here, I will confess, I have dealt with pornography addiction. Aside from purity groups in church, regular confession and sacraments, increased prayer life, etc. one of the best things I did during that battle was to completely remove all means of access. I took the internet card out of my computer, and had no internet at home for about two months. Even now, I have my PC loaded up with content filters and accountability software so that there wouldn’t be even the possibility of my returning to that deplorable hellish filth. The absence of pornography actually helped me to recover from the addiction. After not being able to look at porn, my thought processes began to change and I adapted to a life without self-gratification. Not having porn did not compel me to go out and commit sexual crime. So no, I don’t think porn is necessary to prevent sexual crime, and I completely disagree that it “serves an important role” in society, or that it works as an outlet. Frequent use of pornography changes the way you think about yourself and about women. Self-hatred is an obvious result of pornography and autoeroticism. No surprise. Also no surprise that it changes the way you think about women. That’s a given. So if you are spiraling down, losing more and more respect for yourself and for the women you see, don’t you think that is a recipe for complete disaster? Who do you think is more likely to commit rape, someone who frequently indulges in pornography and masturbation, or someone who doesn’t? Do you think that men who commit these crimes do not have a history of such indulgence?

I never predicted that people who do not watch porn will go out and rape women! What I did say was that coercive enforcement of masturbation during the Victorian era led to the abuse of children and wives. Like other posters, you use a very selective case (yourself) and try to apply it to the general population. My prediction, again, is that porn and masturbation will act as a raw sewage pipe in the general population.

PS I’m glad to hear that you were able to overcome porn! The same is true for me!

Again, I do not condone the use of porn but I believe that God can bring good from and evil Satan has to offer! In the case of porn, I feel that the good is that it acts as a raw sewage pipe.

 

[michelleds]

Quote:
Originally Posted by michelleds
I am saying that the Saints are not infallible.

If you agree that porn and prostitution should never be condoned, then there is NO justification for them, even your sewage pipe.

to “condone” something is:

1. Accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue.
2. Approve or sanction (something), esp. with reluctance

Of course God can bring about good from evil. That does not lead to “we should just chill cuz God’s got it all under control”. Abortion, murder, domestic violence, drug addiction, war, genocide, ethnic cleansing . . . God can and does bring about good from these evils. We CANNOT tolerate, condone, accept, sit by idly, or chill just because God can do so. This is abdicating our roles in this world.

SOCKS SAYS: I agree with everything you say!

All I wish to do is add a suggestion that there is a hidden “good” in porn in that it can act as a sewage pipe. I also agree that Saints are not infallible, but in this case I’m suggesting that St Augustine has got it right! This all that we are disagreeing about! You’re entitled to your view, and I’m entitled to express mine (and Saint Augustine’s) here.

(It’s also OK for you not to sit back and “chill,” and I agree that we must all be righteous and fight evil when it’s at our doorstep, but I also contend that at some point we must all sit back and “chill” to the multitude of the world’s problems because God has everything under control. We would go nuts otherwise!)

If you agree with everything I say, then you cannot continue to adhere to this sewage pipe theory. There is NO basis for it. Since God has forbidden masturbation, porn, prostitution and all sorts of immoral behavior, it is intellectually and spiritually dishonest to claim this justification that there’s some “good” to come out of it. that’s like saying that you want to do evil act A and evil act B will help you to do evil act A, therefore evil act B is okay as a “release”.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If you agree with everything I say, then you cannot continue to adhere to this sewage pipe theory. There is NO basis for it. Since God has forbidden masturbation, porn, prostitution and all sorts of immoral behavior, it is intellectually and spiritually dishonest to claim this justification that there’s some “good” to come out of it. that’s like saying that you want to do evil act A and evil act B will help you to do evil act A, therefore evil act B is okay as a “release”.

But you ignore reality. God is allowing porn to exist for a reason and I merely look to see where it may be serving a positive function. That positive function, I wholehearted believe, is that it acts as a sewage pipe for hyper-intense sexual behavior in the general population. Why can’t you understand what I’m trying to say? Yes, I’m against porn, but this does not mean that it has no positive functions whatsoever. Seldom, in our society, are things entirely good or entirely bad. We do not live in a black and white world! God can bring about good from every evil that Satan has to offer!

(Thanks for your post! It says exactly what I want to say! Please read it more carefully. I basically agree with everything you say except that I would like to add the sewage pipe theory.)

 

[stringbeanduck]

Why can’t you understand what I’m trying to say? Yes, I’m against porn, but this does not mean that it has no positive functions whatsoever. Seldom, in our society, are things entirely good or entirely bad. We do not live in a black and white world! God can bring about good from every evil that Satan has to offer!

The problem though, is that porn is and of its self, morally disordered. It is created for the purpose of offending the virtue of Chastity. Any good, if any (which I doubt there’s any), that comes from it does not justify the fact that it is disordered.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Any good, if any (which I doubt there’s any), that comes from it does not justify the fact that it is disordered.

Tell that to God! I differ because I believe God would not allow porn unless it contained an ultimate good. God can bring good from any evil Satan has to offer.