Is poverty a punishment from God?

[PaulinVA]

God loves poor people. That’s why he made so many of them.

This whole line of thinking that certain people deserve to be poor is so unchristian.

Since it’s harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a camel to get through the eye of the needle, to punish people He would smite them with wealth, right?

We need to have compassion for the poor and alleviate their suffering. We can’t grade them into the “deserving” poor and the “undeserving” poor.

 

[stinkcat_14]

No, we are poor because we dropped out of school, used drugs and alcohol, had children out of wedlock, have a poor work history, and so on.

Or because we were born in poor country that has no respect for property rights and we lack the courage to crawl under the fence to get into a more prosperous country.

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t think this is inconsistent at all with what I said.

The only thing that I would add is that when feeding the able-bodied poor, one can require them to work for their food.

Private charities used to do this before the government launched its welfare programs.

I see no reason why it couldn’t be done today.

If you need public assistance or charity, and are able bodied, you get help, but must work. Cleaning the streets, caring for the elderly and disabled, whatever.

God Bless

Able bodied would have to exclude the mentally ill. Which very often they have made the bad decisions Vern mentions because they are mentally ill. So again, it i not their fault and we should not be judging who is poor by choice.

 

[bilop]

Able bodied would have to exclude the mentally ill. Which very often they have made the bad decisions Vern mentions because they are mentally ill. So again, it i not their fault and we should not be judging who is poor by choice.

Correct. But we should try to get these people treatment.

We shouldn’t be judging anyone, but, for their own sake, we need to address the causes of why people are poor. If they are physically unable to work, they need long term assistance.
If they lost their job, they need short term assistance, and help getting a new job. If they are drug addicts, they need help getting clean.

If they are lazy they need to know their is no free lunch. If the same able bodied guy showed up at your house every day looking for a handout, have him mow your lawn, or shovel snow, or wash your car, and pay him for his labor.

Charity should not just be for the spiritual benefit of the giver, but also the spiritual and material benefit of the recipient.

God Bless

 

[drafdog]

Poverty exists so that the rich may have the opportunity to perform the mitzvah of almsgiving. This is a blessing for the community.
As Teviah in Fiddler on the Roof said, “Poverty is no curse. On the other hand it’s no great honor either.”

Matthew

 

[manualman]

There are those who are poor due to disabilities. I hope you’re not calling them lazy or slothful.

I thought I was clear in stating that we CANNOT assume that.

But I do find it strange that people seem to always try to make all poor people fit into one stereotype or another. The Right always argue that poverty is exclusively the fault of the poor people. The Left always claim that the poor are victims of exploitation and not culpable for their situation.

Reality is that BOTH of those scenarios occur. The trouble with developing effective programs to help the poor is that it is awfully hard to write rules that give a “hand up” to some while avoiding giving a “hand out” to others and actually enabling the problem that lead to their poverty in the first place!

As for the Bible, try out Genesis, right after the fall. Before the Fall, the earth provided plenty without any effort put forward. After the Fall, what does the man now have to do? Work by the sweat of his brow to put his food on the table. Implicit in the statement is that if he DOESN’T do the work, he won’t get the food…

This by no means releases us Christians from giving to the poor. What it means is that we need to keep our eyes open and give the poor not just ‘stuff,’ but hope for the future and a reason to believe in both themselves, their children and God’s love for them.

 

[goofyjim]

I thought I was clear in stating that we CANNOT assume that.

But I do find it strange that people seem to always try to make all poor people fit into one stereotype or another. The Right always argue that poverty is exclusively the fault of the poor people. The Left always claim that the poor are victims of exploitation and not culpable for their situation.

Reality is that BOTH of those scenarios occur. The trouble with developing effective programs to help the poor is that it is awfully hard to write rules that give a “hand up” to some while avoiding giving a “hand out” to others and actually enabling the problem that lead to their poverty in the first place!

As for the Bible, try out Genesis, right after the fall. Before the Fall, the earth provided plenty without any effort put forward. After the Fall, what does the man now have to do? Work by the sweat of his brow to put his food on the table. Implicit in the statement is that if he DOESN’T do the work, he won’t get the food…

This by no means releases us Christians from giving to the poor. What it means is that we need to keep our eyes open and give the poor not just ‘stuff,’ but hope for the future and a reason to believe in both themselves, their children and God’s love for them.

Thing is I don’t mind just giving them stuff. The psychiatrically ill cannot be expected to just work by the sweat of their brow. So we have the food stamps program and social security for the disabled. Of course they are still in poverty unless someone gives them gifts of other things. But then we consider it income if they get a computer as a gift. Heaven forbid that some family member treat them to luxury items without someone else calling it unnecessary.

 

[po18guy]

what do you think?.. are we poor because God is punishing us?

Conversely, we are wealthy because God will punish us. “The poor you will always have with you and you may do for them whenever you like”.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Gloria1]

Thanks all for your answers! I really appreciate it ! stay blessed!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Jesus says feed the poor. He doesn’t clarify by saying only those who are that way due to illness and disability. He would not leave anyone hungry, spiritually or physically.

Are you claiming, then that Saint Paul was a heretic? That his writings were not inspired?

Because he does say, “Who will not work, let him not eat.” He does caution against excessive charity, and explains why it hurts both the giver and the receiver (see Chapter 5 of 1st Timothy.)

 

[vern_humphrey]

We shouldn’t be judging anyone, but, for their own sake, we need to address the causes of why people are poor. If they are physically unable to work, they need long term assistance.
If they lost their job, they need short term assistance, and help getting a new job. If they are drug addicts, they need help getting clean.

If they are lazy they need to know their is no free lunch. If the same able bodied guy showed up at your house every day looking for a handout, have him mow your lawn, or shovel snow, or wash your car, and pay him for his labor.

Charity should not just be for the spiritual benefit of the giver, but also the spiritual and material benefit of the recipient.

God Bless

Absolutely right. And lack of education is closely associated with almost all the things you mentioned. Where are our worst schools? In our poorest districts!! Where is illiteracy rampant? In our poorest districts!! Where is drug abuse, alcoholism, crime and out-of-wedlock pregnancy most concentrated? In our poorest districts!!

May people who are now poor – and hence net consumers – could be net contributors** if **they had a good education. Many people who nowadays are the problem could be solvers of the problem, ** if **they had a good education.

 

[goofyjim]

Are you claiming, then that Saint Paul was a heretic? That his writings were not inspired?

Because he does say, “Who will not work, let him not eat.” He does caution against excessive charity, and explains why it hurts both the giver and the receiver (see Chapter 5 of 1st Timothy.)

I don’t call Paul a heretic but I don’t believe charity can be excessive either. Let me do as I please with my donations. I will help anyone I please and not consider it a sin.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Or because we were born in poor country that has no respect for property rights and we lack the courage to crawl under the fence to get into a more prosperous country.

Which “poor country” is that in which we were born?

Yes, here in the United States we have some very bad schools – there are some schools that are so bad that if you had to choose between going to that school or going to prison, you’d have a hard time making your choice.

And that’s our fault – we tolerate this situation.

But there are a lot of kids who drop out of fairly decent schools. There are kids who choose to use drugs, drink, have out-of-wedlock sex. There are kids who taunt, bully and make fun of kids who study and make good grades.

So there are some people who have disabilities, physical or mental or both, which prevent them from getting an education and earning a living.

And there are kids trapped in very bad schools who are badly served by our education system.

But there are a lot of people who could get an education, and who choose not to. There are people who choose to use drugs, alcohol, indulge in out-of-wedlock sex, commit crimes, and so on. And for these people, poverty is the consequence of the bad choices they made.

 

[neslor617]

No, I don’t think poverty is a punishment from God. Some people are born into poverty, and it is next to impossible for them to get out of that situation, so it continues on. Then, there are those who make bad choices and end up in a state of poverty because of those choices…that is our own doing, and is not a punishment by God. We were given free will, and that includes bad choices. I do believe most poverty falls under the 1st category I mentioned and not the 2nd. It is true that poor countries have an incredible amount of faith and trust in God. Jesus was very clear in the Bible that we are required to help the poor…it is not an option, it is a requirement to enter heaven.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No, I don’t think poverty is a punishment from God. Some people are born into poverty, and it is next to impossible for them to get out of that situation, so it continues on. Then, there are those who make bad choices and end up in a state of poverty because of those choices…that is our own doing, and is not a punishment by God. We were given free will, and that includes bad choices. I do believe most poverty falls under the 1st category I mentioned and not the 2nd. It is true that poor countries have an incredible amount of faith and trust in God. Jesus was very clear in the Bible that we are required to help the poor…it is not an option, it is a requirement to enter heaven.

In this country, probably the major underlying cause of poverty is lack of education. And yet we have people on this forum poo-poo the idea we need to improve our education system, claiming that most poor people can’t learn.

We are in a debate over Charity on the one hand and Social Justice on the other. Charity is basically the Corporal Works of Mercy, and is open-ended. If you feed the hungry today, you must feed them again tomorrow and the next day. You haven’t got them out of poverty – you’ve just made them a bit more comfortable in their poverty.

Social Justice is changing our society so that so many people won’t need charity. It’s about educating people so they can get jobs and be self-sufficient (and perhaps help the rest of us in our Charity to those who can’t get jobs.) It’s about instilling positive values in people who have negative values – so they see education, work, savings, delayed gratification and so on as good things, and see things like drug abuse, out-of-wedlock sex and so on as bad things.

 

[neslor617]

In this country, probably the major underlying cause of poverty is lack of education. And yet we have people on this forum poo-poo the idea we need to improve our education system, claiming that most poor people can’t learn.

We are in a debate over Charity on the one hand and Social Justice on the other. Charity is basically the Corporal Works of Mercy, and is open-ended. If you feed the hungry today, you must feed them again tomorrow and the next day. You haven’t got them out of poverty – you’ve just made them a bit more comfortable in their poverty.

Social Justice is changing our society so that so many people won’t need charity. It’s about educating people so they can get jobs and be self-sufficient (and perhaps help the rest of us in our Charity to those who can’t get jobs.) It’s about instilling positive values in people who have negative values – so they see education, work, savings, delayed gratification and so on as good things, and see things like drug abuse, out-of-wedlock sex and so on as bad things.

Basically, I was speaking of the truly poor countries, not ours. We have poverty, but not anything like other countries who are born into poverty and can’t get out. Of course it would be ideal to help these people become self-sufficient. And I agree that education is HUGE to try and make people self-sufficient and end the cycle of poverty…this is true in our country as well as other poor countries. But it is not okay to sit back and say, well I can’t do anything about the poor because they need education. Jesus will not be okay with that. He had a huge amount of compassion for the poor and made it very clear we are required to give to the poor in order to enter heaven. We have to do something—ourselves—not just wait for others to do something.

 

[planter654]

Mother Teresa said

Our Lord gives us a living example; From the very first day of His human existence He was brought up in a poverty which NO human being will ever be able to experience, because" being rich He made Himself poor." Christ being rich emptied Himself. He chose poverty because He knew that it was the genuine means to possess God and to bring His love to the earth.

It would be a shame for us to be richer thatn Jesus, who for our sake endured poverty.

God has not created poverty, it is we who have createdit. Before God, all of us are poor.

The poor are wonderful people. What they give to us is more than what we give to them. The poor are our prayer.

You in the West have the spiritually poorest of the poor much more than you have the physically poor. Often among the rich are very spiritually poor people.

I find it is easy to give a plate of rice to a hungry person, to furnish a bed to a person who has no bed, BUT to console or to remove the bitterness, anger, and loneliness that comes from being spiritually deprived, that takes a long time.

We have no right to judge the rich. For our part, what we desire is not a class struggle but a class encounter, in which the rich SAVE the poor and the poor SAVE the rich.

With regard to God our poverty is our humble recognitiion and accetpance of our sinfulness, helplessness, and utter nothingness and the acknowledgemnt of our neediness before Him which expresses itself as hope in Him, as an openness to receive all things from Him as from our Father.

Our poverty should be rue gospel poverty; gentle, tender, glad, and openhearted, always ready to give an expression of love. To Love, it is necessary to give. To give, it is necessary to be free from selfishness.

Abandonment is an awful poverty.
Poverty is freedom. It is a freedom so that what I possess doesn’t own me!

Know that the poor are there to be seen.

In order to help us deserve heaven, Christ set a condition: At the moment of our death, you and I whoeverw e might have been and wherever we have lived, Christieans and non-Christians alike, every human being who has been created by the loving hand of God in His own image, shall stand in His presence and be judged according to what we have been for the poor, what we have done for them. We have to become increasingly aware that the poor are the hope of humanity, for we will be judged by how we have treated the poor. We will have to face this reality when we are summoned before the throne of God:

Jesus was rich and became poor for us. I was hungry, I was naked, I was homeless, And whatever you did to the least of my brethren, you did it to me! Our neighbours, family, friends etc.

All copied above from the Book of “Mother Teresa”…“No Greater Love”

 

[brigid12]

Jesus says feed the poor. He doesn’t clarify by saying only those who are that way due to illness and disability. He would not leave anyone hungry, spiritually or physically.

:clapping:

“But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?” 1 John 3:17 RSV-CE
"He that hath the substance of this world, and shall see his brother in need, and shall shut up his bowels from him: how doth the charity of God abide in him?’ 1 John 3:17 D-R
"If anyone is well-off in worldly possessions and sees his brother in need but closes his heart to him, how can the love of God be remaining in him? 1 John 3:17 NJB

Our Lord calls us to this action, no modifications. How we do this is a matter of governmental politics. I, for one, want to do it no matter how hard-hearted and cheap is our government and I am heartened by the poster who paid his sales tax on his plane even tho’ others didn’t want him to do so.

I am one of the poor, with no money but what I get from my elderly mother. As stated before, over 50% of bankruptcies are due to medical crisis. I have known some able-bodied people who used their welfare money for drugs, however those people were so emotionally broken and sick that my heart wept for them. How much more is Jesus going to weep and have compassion on them! How much more will The Father want vengence on those who did not help them, in some way.

 

[planter654]

:clapping:

“But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?” 1 John 3:17 RSV-CE
"He that hath the substance of this world, and shall see his brother in need, and shall shut up his bowels from him: how doth the charity of God abide in him?’ 1 John 3:17 D-R
"If anyone is well-off in worldly possessions and sees his brother in need but closes his heart to him, how can the love of God be remaining in him? 1 John 3:17 NJB

Our Lord calls us to this action, no modifications. How we do this is a matter of governmental politics. I, for one, want to do it no matter how hard-hearted and cheap is our government and I am heartened by the poster who paid his sales tax on his plane even tho’ others didn’t want him to do so.

I am one of the poor, with no money but what I get from my elderly mother. As stated before, over 50% of bankruptcies are due to medical crisis. I have known some able-bodied people who used their welfare money for drugs, however those people were so emotionally broken and sick that my heart wept for them. How much more is Jesus going to weep and have compassion on them! How much more will The Father want vengence on those who did not help them, in some way.

Beautifully said…Thank you and God sweet Blessings always.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I don’t call Paul a heretic but I don’t believe charity can be excessive either. Let me do as I please with my donations. I will help anyone I please and not consider it a sin.

Apples and oranges – Paul was talking about institutional charity (the institution being the Church), not about individual giving. Indeed, he often takes the position that relatives and others associated with those in need have the first duty – a position which, if we all followed it, would greatly reduce both the need for institutional charity and the cold, impersonal nature sometimes associated with that form of charity.