Is Protestantism the greatest (most damaging) heresy in Christian history?

[Tomster]

Reletivistic morality did not come from Protestantism. For centuries, Protestant denominations held virtually identical moral positions as the Catholic Church.

It was the advent of secular, anti-Christian philosophers and leaders like Voltaire, Nietzsche, Hegel, and yes, even Thomas Jefferson, that brought about these changes.

As fun as it might be (for Catholics), it is not historically accurate to place the blame for the erosion of morality at the feet of Protestants it is neither charitable, nor true.

However, I will concede that rudderless, (without a Pope) many denominations succumbed to the pressure of the secular world out of a misplaced sense of charity.

Many years ago I seem to remember a study that was made of ethical patterns which the author obseved that Protestantism labors under a grave handicap in dealing with moral and social problems. Lacking the absolute principles of Catholicism, its morality becomes more passive than active. Having a limited cultural tradition, the Protestant more easily identifies himself with the given structures, with the moral enviroment in which he finds himself. If it happens to be Christian he tends to be conservative; if it is secularist, he readily accomodates his conduct to the prevailing norm.

The moral issues arising from marital relations illustrate this principle of conformity. With the growth of secularism and its consequent demoralization of family life, Protestant churchmen and their communicants find themselves defending positions that a few generations ago their ancestors had repudiated as utterly unchristian. Within the surrendered territory the most serious loss is a clear concept of the primary function of marriage, the procreation of and education of children, which the pagans had always subordinated to selfish interests but which now religious leaders eliminate from the teaching of Christ.

As in so many other cases, here, too, the Reformation prepared its adherents for what sociologists consider the most serious threat to family security in the western world. The right of private interpretation, or more correctly, the claim of private inspiration, exposed the Protestant conscience to the dangers of illuminism and allowed each person the option of setting up his own standards of marital conduct. Marriage itself was removed from the category of sacred institutions on the pretense of saving it from papistical control. In line with the Lutheran theology of concupiscence, the people were told that “no conjugal act takes place without sin,” yet “God covers up the sin without which the married cannot live.”

 

[grandfather]

Marriage itself was removed from the category of sacred institutions on the pretense of saving it from papistical control. In line with the Lutheran theology of concupiscence, the people were told that “no conjugal act takes place without sin,” yet “God covers up the sin without which the married cannot live.”

Do you have a source for Luther saying this?

 

[savedsinner]

I don’t think you can consider the reformation a “heresy”, but it has splintered the church which is not good at all.

Here is the link for the online book of "The Great Heresies by Hilaire Belloc.

THE GREAT HERESIES

                        by Hilaire Belloc

                           Chapter Six

                    What Was the Reformation?

    The movement generally called "The Reformation" deserves a place

apart in the story of the great heresies; and that for the following
reasons:

    1. It was not a particular movement but a general one, i.e., it

did not propound a particular heresy which could be debated and exploded,
condemned by the authority of the Church, as had hitherto been every other
heresy or heretical movement. Nor did it, after the various heretical
propositions had been condemned, set up (as had Mohammedanism or the
Albigensian movement) a separate religion over against the old orthodoxy.
Rather did it create a certain separate which we still
call “Protestantism.” It produced indeed a crop of heresies, but not one
heresy_and its characteristic was that all its heresies attained and
prolonged a common savour: that which we call “Protestantism” today.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

ok. I still don’t see the connection between legal aboration and the philosophical and theological systems of protestants. Could you show me how we get from A to B? a link explaining or showing some light would work too.

I think I can help you, here.

I have been a Protestant for many years, and am only now shifting toward Catholicism. I have been a conservative Protestant. My Protestant family and myself loathe abortion. However, I can see how some of the beliefs I once held opened the door for the legalization of abortion.

Protestantism shattered the unity of Christendom. Of that, there can be no doubt. Religious Wars ensued. Because of the intensity of the violence of the Religious Wars, many said that religion was not worth such bloodshed. Some blamed religion for the bloodshed, suggesting that without the religion, the bloodshed would not have happened. The Enlightenment formed partly out of that frame of mind.

The bloodshed was the result of the practice in the Church and state that religious deviation was not to be tolerated. The Protestants and Catholics both believed that this was true, and they all believed that they had the true religion, which should be defended by the sword if necessary. They did not hold to freedom of religion. Therefore they fought each other, each fighting for what they perceived to be the true faith.

When people decided that the Religious Wars were not worth it, that fighting each other was not going to bring any solution, they decided they needed to tolerate one another’s differences to get along. Thus they created freedom of religion.

Protestantism led to the Religious Wars, which led to freedom of religion. Thus far, the links seem to me to be pretty clear.

Secular governments, during the Reformation, seized the opportunity Protestantism provided to seize control over religion in their states. Some became the heads of religion in their government. Religion lost political power completely in other places. It was often not the will of Protestants that this occur, but monarchs took advantage of the fragmentation in the Church to make this occur. And many Protestants were firmly behind this movement, for in the secular rulers they found protectors against the Catholic Church and against other Protestant denominations.

In the environment of religious freedom that followed the Religious Wars, all manner of heresy and idolatry, false religion and godlessness, sprouted up. This was during the period now called “the Enlightenment.” In past centuries, the sword had been used to curb such godlessness before it could become anywhere near as radical as what was seen in the Enlightenment.

Everything we now have is a derivation. The Enlightenment came from the Reformation, because religious freedom that followed the Religious Wars opened the door for all belief systems being treated as equal in the government, which meant godlessness could find a home. With all belief systems treated as equal, we have not only freedom of religion, but freedom from religion and freedom from morality. With the freedom from morality that must come from having all religions equal (an idea that resulted from the Reformation) comes freedom from God. Which means freedom of sin. That is what many of our modern freedoms boil down to: Freedom of Sin. Is that a good, valid freedom in society?

If all belief systems are equal, yes.

From my point of view, though, why treat them equally if they aren’t equal?

-Freedom of choice (abortion) comes from freedom from just law.
-Freedom from just law comes from freedom from moral law.
-Freedom from moral law comes from freedom from religious law.
-Freedom from religious law comes from freedom of religion (all belief systems are treated equally).
-Freedom of religion comes from the freedom from the Catholic Church (through the Religious Wars).
-Freedom from the Catholic Church comes from the Protestant Reformation.

And, I might add, freedom from the Catholic Church is freedom from God. Freedom for Hell. Hell, and Satan, is the root of it all.

 

[grandfather]

I think I can help you, here.

I have been a Protestant for many years, and am only now shifting toward Catholicism. I have been a conservative Protestant. My Protestant family and myself loathe abortion. However, I can see how some of the beliefs I once held opened the door for the legalization of abortion…

Your analysis is very good, but it can be put into a nutshell. Jesus commanded unity of His followers. We are divided into many parts as a result of the Reformation’s theology that was used to justify breaking unity. That justification is the doctrine of sola scriptura. This unleashed countless divisions. Unity is shattered. The consequences of shaterred Christian unity are what we see in our once Christian civilization, a civilization Christianity built. Morality is not defined by a secular state put in place by the people as opposed to God being the giver of the moral law. My Protestant friends hate abortion and work with all their hearts to fight it. That does not change the fact that a divided Body of Christ is the cause of the moral collapse of society. Christians are disobedient to Christ in disunity. He commands us to be one. Paul commands us to be of one mind, to agree on all things. The failure to obey this command results in the destruction of Christian society and souls.

 

[mark_a]

Over the past few months I’ve been studying the great heresies of Christianity. (Interesting point: the root word for heresy comes from the Greek – “to choose”).

Many heresies were incredibly divisive and damaging to the Body of Christ. Some of the “big” ones were Gnosticism, Arianism, Modalism, Marcionism, Modernism, etc. Most of them were related, and in one form or another they all exist today. Another common element is that they led to schism.

But I think the most divisive heresy – because of its constant splintering – has to be Protestantism. Whereas most of the other great heresies peaked and receded within about 400 years or less, there seems to be no abatement to the mushrooming of Protestantism.

So is Protestantism the greatest (most damaging) heresy in Christian history?

I don’t ask this question to “beat up” Protestant people. I have nothing against them. I’m merely looking at Protestantism from an objectively technical and historical context and in relation to other heresies which antedated it or sprung from it.

I’ve read that Muhammed was deeply infuenced by Nestorians.

I do realize that you asked specifically about Christian heresy, but we’ve got a bigger problem on our hands:

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Grandfather, yes, what you discussed is certainly one of the most important parts of the spiritual side of it.

I was focusing more on the political and historical roots.

 

[grandfather]

Grandfather, yes, what you discussed is certainly one of the most important parts of the spiritual side of it.

I was focusing more on the political and historical roots.

So when are you going to move past leaning or tilting toward Catholicism?

 

[Lepanto]

I’m very impressed by the quality of posts in this thread.

Thank you to all!

 

[Lief_Erikson]

So when are you going to move past leaning or tilting toward Catholicism?

Probably Pentecost. That is when confirmations are held, right? I’m going through the RCIA confirmation classes right now.

I definitely feel that God is leading me this way. Sound reason, the Bible, powerful religious experiences, and our history books are all pointing me in the same direction. There is no logic, no scripture, no history and no religious experience pointing the other way, as far as I can see, and I’ve been debating this a lot with my Dad, who is extremely wise and knowledgeable.

I really could use prayer, though. I’m experiencing a lot of pressure from my family over my current views, and I know no one who I can see in flesh and blood, who believes I am doing the right thing. Only those in this forum believe I am doing the right thing, but even many of them would shy away if they knew that I now think the Inquisition was overall doing the right thing (though of course it was fallible and made mistakes, some grievous, like any human justice system will), and that religious freedom and separation of church and state are abominable.

I’m feeling extremely isolated.

The Catholic Church I’m going to is very loving, but it also seems to be rather significantly influenced by modern culture. My RCIA instructor said the Bible is self-contradictory and is not inerrant, and she spoke of Martin Luther as “quite a character,” but certainly not as a false prophet. I don’t know how much spiritual support I’ll be able to expect from this church. At least they oppose abortion.

My greatest solace as regards human support is that I can look back at the words of great saints from the past, for once upon a time the entire Christian world thought the same way I am coming to think.

The absence of support and the immense exterior pressure make it easier for me to fall into the trap of distrusting God. I have had far more doubts since the pressure from outside began, not for any rational reason, but simply coming from the desire to have peace and unity with my family. Mistrust is a force I am vigorously fighting.

I feel pretty sure that I never will change my mind, however, because I am absolutely disgusted now by the evil I can clearly see and understand. I can see this atrocious evil with spiritual eyes- I even sometimes receive dreams or images in my mind’s eye from God that show me the wickedness that has been developing in culture and law in society for centuries, and now I know where its roots are, where it comes from. So I don’t think I could possibly go back to my old ways of thinking without feeling as though I was eating vomit.

God speaks to me very often and comforts and strengthens me. That is an ENORMOUS help. But in spite of that, I’ve never felt so alone. The great gift of insight God has given me in the last year is acting nearly as much as a curse as it is a blessing. I love possessing this knowledge that unveils God’s actions in the fantastic sweep of Christian history to me, yet the pain that comes with the knowledge from my surroundings is acute. This new grace and insight, this new closeness of God in my life, has become like an infection or disease. This is because I know that if my friends were aware of what I think (I’ve told them I’m moving toward Catholicism, but most of them know no more than that), I would not be treated with confidence any longer, but rather as a . . . I don’t know exactly what, but the relationships certainly would change for the worse, as have my relationships with my family members. The gift of God is both wonderful and horrible at the same time.

As God cuts away my human supports and worldly connections, I rely more and more heavily upon him and so come closer and closer to him. I hear from him almost every day now. In the past, it was once every couple weeks, or sometimes once a month. But now, God is constantly present and active with me.

Anyway, I could use prayer. And I also very much want prayer for my family members, that God will give them peace about the direction I am going. That is high on my prayer list. I could use prayer for increased confidence about the direction in which I am going. And self-control, strength, faith and love. I need any or all of these.

I’m not asking that you pray for me often or anything- just whenever you think about it. I’d really appreciate it .

 

[Tomster]

Do you have a source for Luther saying this?

Yes, I do. “Werke” by Martin Luther (Weimar edition), vol.VIII, p.654.

 

[Tomster]

Wow!!!..Um…Man that is…Wow!:bigyikes: I thank you for you’re honesty but!
To blame protestants for the abortion epedemic is biggeted, ignorant, unfounded, hatefull, unjustfied and pointless to name a few. For evey one protestant you could find that suports abortion, I could find hundreds that are against it. The civil government has not taken place of the church! This is not a communist country. The Church still has jurisdition in the area of moral law. If civial law does not follow the Churches moral teachings thats the choice of the government. But that too can NOT be put on protestants!! Moral chaos in society, the confusion we see is a result of people freely choosing to sin. WE ALL ARE SINNERS! To blame protestants only is…is…:banghead: is a self righteous point of view.

Adam,

The idea of preventing conception is not new and was already known among the ancient primitives. Among savage peoples a great variety of contraceptive methods, some magical and superstitious and others more effective, were employed along with infanticide and abortion to restrict the population. In the United States the organized effort to popularize contraceptive methods was started during the period 1828-1832 by Robert Dale Owen and Charles Knowlton. Owen was the son of British socialist, Robert Owen, who influenced the writings of Karl Marx and whose thesis that “man’s character is the product of his social and economic enviroment” has become the mainstay of Marxian sociology. Owen Jr. popularized his father’s ideals in several books, especially “Moral Philosophy,” in which he advocated artificial contraception. By the time of his death in 1877, 75,000 copies had been sold. In 1832, Knowlton, a Massachusetts physician, brought out anonymously “Fruits of Philosophy,” to give the people the medical side of what Owen promoted on economic grounds.

Just a little history.

 

[beckycmarie]

No. I think Islam is worse. At least Protestants acknowledge the divinity of Christ.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

I’m very impressed by the quality of posts in this thread.

Thank you to all!

Well…I do what I can! :whacky: I do have to say philosopy is not my strongest point but I am learning and am finding it more interstering from theis thread.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

.

Here is the question for you. If Christendom was still united institutionally and had not been devastated by division, directly attributable to Protestantism/denominationalism, would we have legalized abortion, etc. today? Would we be talking about men marrying men and tomorrow dogs? How did the civil goverrnment become the definer of the moral law? What caused this to happen? What were the historical social civil ideological events that led to where we are?

Yes I think we probly would.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Yes I think we probly would.

Well, the evidence against that is pretty conclusive. In over a thousand years of history in which the church dominated the land and possessed immense political power, nothing like this happened. In fact, the church abolished the permissive attitude toward infanticide practiced by the Romans. It took hundreds of years after the church had lost power for abortion and infanticide to make a come-back, because the church’s influence on this subject had been so strongly imprinted on the cultures of the nations. It took a long time for that to erode.

 

[MH84]

No. I think Islam is worse. At least Protestants acknowledge the divinity of Christ.

Are JW and Christadelphians etc considered Protestants?

 

[Teflon93]

No, Islam is.

Islam’s view of Christ is essentially Gnostic; Mohammad most likely received his limited understanding of Christianity from Christian heretics.

Moreover, Islam’s relentless violence, intolerance, and resort to forced conversion at swordpoint throughout its expansionary period succeeded in dominance of the Eastern half of the Roman Empire, including the Holy Land, and indeed a sizeable chunk of the West before they were beaten back in France, Austria, and Spain.

Compared to the Muslims, Protestants are pikers (little shout out to Gustavus Adolphus there).

This is all historically-speaking, of course. Muslims today are no more responsible for their ancestors than Christians today are for theirs.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I always thought of Islam as a tenuous blend of parts of Judaism and parts of Christianity, with a greater similarity to Judaism, because of its emphasis on salvation through obedience to the Law.

 

[beckycmarie]

Are JW and Christadelphians etc considered Protestants?

I don’t know what a Christadelphian is, but JW’s can’t be considered protestant since they’re not even Christian. Either are Mormons.