Is Protestantism the greatest (most damaging) heresy in Christian history?

[Teflon93]

Thank you John Boy. (Sorry, couldn’t resist—“The Waltons” is the greatest and most damaging TV show in my subconscious).

 

[Parysa]

I don’t know what a Christadelphian is, but JW’s can’t be considered protestant since they’re not even Christian. Either are Mormons.

Mormons are misled on many things, but that doesn’t necessarily negate their salvation.

It is not condescending; it is the plain and simple truth. Neither of them recognize the Trinity and/or the divinity of Christ; therefore they are not Christians.

I was brought up Pentecostal and Mormon and have never heard anything denying the Trinity or the divinity of Christ. Actually, when I was 8, I remember our missionaries explaining the concept of the Trinity to me using cups and I gave the analogy of a hard-boiled egg (shell, white, yolk but all egg only with God, the shell is the yolk and the white is the shell, etc) and they loved it b/c they said it was a hard concept to explain and that made it easier to visualize and worked better than the cups. Look at some Mormon pictures of Jesus. He always glows, signifying his divinity (similar to the halo, only all of him glows).

Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons base their beliefs in the old heresy of Arianism:
In addition, Mormons include many Masonic elements in their temple ceremonies.
Because they consider Christ a created being, an angel, and not God, we should consider their religions heretical cults, not Christians.

I’ve never heard of that and none of my family or friends (including several who are/were missionaries) who are Mormon believe that Christ was a created being or an angel or that He was not God. Be careful when you judge the salvation of an entire group based on misinformation and negative propaganda. Many Protestants say that Catholics can’t be Christian because of supposed beliefs that simply aren’t true yet are spread by anti-Catholics. The same thing happens with Mormonism. I can’t speak for JW, b/c I don’t know anything about it, but I do know Mormonism. There may be Mormons who aren’t Christian, but there also probably are Catholics who aren’t, either.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Parysa, my grandmother once had a Bible study that included several Christians and also a Mormon. They decided to read the Book of John, and as they read chapter 1, the Mormon got extremely agitated and shocked. She exclaimed, “It says here that Jesus was the Son of God!” She found it stunning, for she hadn’t believed in his divinity.

My grandmother also recently asked a pair of Mormon missionaries whether or not they believed that Jesus was God. One answered, “Yes,” and the other, “No,” simultaneously. Then they both stopped and stared at each other.

Other issues that lead me to believe Mormonism is not a Christian sect are:

1. God the Father is not eternal, but was a created being on another planet who lived and sinned and died and was made new and transformed and became holy.
2. Jesus had many wives. This would mean that he was guilty of the sin of sexual immorality, though I know that Mormons don’t see it that way.
3. It is polytheistic. God the Father is just the head god in the council of gods, and he is the ruler of Planet Earth, but everyone who comes to God will become a god just like him. We are only to worship the god that rules our planet, but the others are just as much gods as God is.

 

[beckycmarie]

Parysa,

This information is from Wikipedia, which I know is not always the most reliable source. If this information is incorrect, a practicing Mormon should probably be the one to set this straight. What is said here is what I’ve always heard about the Mormon understanding of the Trinity.

The article on LDS says:

The church teaches that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are “one God” in the sense that they are one “in purpose”, but does not accept the Nicene Creed’s definition of Trinity, that the three are “consubstantial”. Rather, the church teaches that the Father and the Son are two distinct beings, both with glorified, perfect bodies of flesh and bone, while the Holy Ghost is a distinct being with only a “spirit body” God the Father is understood to be the literal father of all the spirits who inhabit this earth[25]. He is also understood to be the father of Jesus’ spirit body and his physical body. Joseph Smith stated,

"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God [anyhow]--three in one and one in three. . .It is curious organization. . . All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism (Christian faith). It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God--he would be a giant or a monster (monstrosity)."[26]

Evidence of polytheism in Mormonism, also from Wikipedia:

A council of the Gods in premortal life planned the creation of the earth [20], and Jesus Christ as Jehovah was a part of this council. Jesus offered to come to earth to provide the way for the salvation and exaltation of as many of God the Father’s spirit children as would follow Jesus through repentance and divine grace; those who make and keep covenants with Christ can become gods and goddesses in the celestial kingdom through the power of the atonement.[21][22][23] Those who achieve godhood through their faithfulness to Christ’s teachings will be able to have spirit children in eternity the same way that God the Father does[24], thus receiving the fullness of knowledge, righteous power, joy and love that the Father and Christ enjoy.

I’ve always heard that Mormons believe Jesus is a created being, essentially the firstborn of humankind.

The New Testament teaches that Jesus, God the Son, is eternal and has no beginning. However, Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a procreated being, the literal offspring of God the Father and one of His heavenly wives. According to Mormon theology, God the Father, Elohim, dwells on a planet with His many spirit wives producing numerous spirit children who await to inhabit physical bodies so that they too may one day ascend to godhood as their parents did. Jesus is believed to be the firstborn spirit child of Elohim.

Source: probe.org/content/view/772/65/

If this is incorrect, then again I think a practicing Mormon needs to refute it.

 

[beckycmarie]

There may be Mormons who aren’t Christian, but there also probably are Catholics who aren’t, either.

If the Catholic is baptized, then that statement is incorrect.

Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1272

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Beckycmarie, are you holding to the “once saved, always saved” doctrine? The Catholic sources I’ve researched say that once a believer is baptized, he still can freely choose to turn away from Christ and go to hell. And some do. Even though they might claim to still be Catholic.

 

[beckycmarie]

Beckycmarie, are you holding to the “once saved, always saved” doctrine? The Catholic sources I’ve researched say that once a believer is baptized, he still can freely choose to turn away from Christ and go to hell. And some do. Even though they might claim to still be Catholic.

Once saved always saved? Absolutely not.

I agree with you, a believer can turn away from Christ, but baptism puts the mark of a Christian on his soul forever, regardless of whether he ends up in Heaven or Hell.

 

[jmcrae]

Beckycmarie, are you holding to the “once saved, always saved” doctrine? The Catholic sources I’ve researched say that once a believer is baptized, he still can freely choose to turn away from Christ and go to hell. And some do. Even though they might claim to still be Catholic.

There is no such thing as once saved always saved - anybody can end up in Hell. But once Christian, always Christian - even in Hell.

 

[Parysa]

Parysa, my grandmother once had a Bible study that included several Christians and also a Mormon. They decided to read the Book of John, and as they read chapter 1, the Mormon got extremely agitated and shocked. She exclaimed, “It says here that Jesus was the Son of God!” She found it stunning, for she hadn’t believed in his divinity.

That just means that her church did not do a good job of teaching it. Not that they don’t believe it as a whole.

My grandmother also recently asked a pair of Mormon missionaries whether or not they believed that Jesus was God. One answered, “Yes,” and the other, “No,” simultaneously. Then they both stopped and stared at each other.

Again, there are probably some Mormons who are not Christian. Just like there are liberal and conservative views in other denominations, the same goes for Mormons. There seems to be a “normal” section of them and a “way out there” section. The “way out there” group, no, I don’t think they’re Christian. But most every-day Mormons that you meet are Christians, do believe in the divinity of Christ, and do believe in the Trinity.

Other issues that lead me to believe Mormonism is not a Christian sect are:

1. God the Father is not eternal, but was a created being on another planet who lived and sinned and died and was made new and transformed and became holy.

Their first Article of Faith says “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ; and in the Holy Spirit.” So, if anyone says that they don’t believe God is eternal, they don’t know what they’re talking about. Kind of like “used-to-be Catholics” who go around spreading that Catholics worship Mary.

1. Jesus had many wives. This would mean that he was guilty of the sin of sexual immorality, though I know that Mormons don’t see it that way.

They believe that Jesus was probably married, but not that he had many wives.

1. It is polytheistic. God the Father is just the head god in the council of gods, and he is the ruler of Planet Earth, but everyone who comes to God will become a god just like him. We are only to worship the god that rules our planet, but the others are just as much gods as God is.

That, actually, is a misunderstanding of what they do believe. (Catholics worship Saints.) They believe that, IF you are married in the Temple, then you have authority over your progeny, but that authority is subject to God. You are not A god. You are not A deity. You are simply in a position of authority over those who come from your bloodline. And there is only the possibility of that if you do certain things (get married in the temple, and some others). I don’t think they’re right. But that doesn’t make them polytheistic.

There is no such thing as once saved always saved - anybody can end up in Hell. But once Christian, always Christian - even in Hell.

How can you be Christian and not be saved? That doesn’t really seem to make sense to me.

 

[beckycmarie]

How can you be Christian and not be saved? That doesn’t really seem to make sense to me.

Just calling yourself a Christian is not enough. You have to actually do what Jesus commands.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”

Matthew 7:21

 

[Teflon93]

Just calling yourself a Christian is not enough. You have to actually do what Jesus commands.

And Luke 6:46: “Why do you call me “Lord” but do not do the things I tell you to do?”

And John 6:53, but some think I’m impolite to bring that up.

 

[Parysa]

But wouldn’t that mean that those people aren’t really Christians, they just call themselves that?

 

[beckycmarie]

But wouldn’t that mean that those people aren’t really Christians, they just call themselves that?

I guess you would just call them hypocrites. Once baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you are Christian forever no matter what you do, and like jmcrae said, you can even be Christian in Hell.

There certainly are people who call themselves Christian but don’t act like it.

 

[Teflon93]

But wouldn’t that mean that those people aren’t really Christians, they just call themselves that?

You are really Christian if you have been baptized as such in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That’s when you became part of the Body of Christ.

Leaving the Body through unrepentant sin of course may mean you might not be accurately deemed a Christian any longer, but since that’s between you and God, one cannot really expect your fellow recovering sinners to have such discernment.

We are all prodigal sons in this regard, although not all of us return home for the joyful feast.

 

[rpp]

The Catholic Church does not accept the baptism of either Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses. That means that those religions are not, at their core, Christian.

JW teach that Jesus was a only sort of divine, a lower level god than God the Father and an entirely different person and being. They explicitly teach that the Trinity is false.

Mormons teach a sort of Trinitarianism, but they do not apply it in the same way that Christians do. The Mormon religion teaches that the three persons of the trinity are, in fact, three completely separate people. They just agree on most things and work toward a common purpose. Additionally, they do not teach that any of the persons of the Trinity created the Universe. Instead, they teach that God the father was once a mortal being who ascended to divinity and assumed the role of God the Father. In the same way, they teach that all people can become gods.

The fact that the founders of these religions got their ideas from Christianity does not make them Christian.

The idea that “some Mormons might be Christian” is the same as saying that some communists are capitalists. It is simply not possible.

 

[Parysa]

The Catholic Church does not accept the baptism of either Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses. That means that those religions are not, at their core, Christian.

JW teach that Jesus was a only sort of divine, a lower level god than God the Father and an entirely different person and being. They explicitly teach that the Trinity is false.

Mormons teach a sort of Trinitarianism, but they do not apply it in the same way that Christians do. The Mormon religion teaches that the three persons of the trinity are, in fact, three completely separate people. They just agree on most things and work toward a common purpose. Additionally, they do not teach that any of the persons of the Trinity created the Universe. Instead, they teach that God the father was once a mortal being who ascended to divinity and assumed the role of God the Father. In the same way, they teach that all people can become gods.

The fact that the founders of these religions got their ideas from Christianity does not make them Christian.

The idea that “some Mormons might be Christian” is the same as saying that some communists are capitalists. It is simply not possible.

Having been raised in that church and having listened to their beliefs all my life, I must respectfully disagree with you. They do not teach that God was once mortal. They teach that He is eternal. They absolutely do not teach that all people can become gods. Even to gain authority over your own progeny, you must fulfill certain things, and they do NOT say that you are a god or equal to God. That is just as untrue as saying that Catholics worship Mary or the Saints or that they (Catholics) believe the Pope is perfect. Just because a belief about a denomination or religion’s belief system is widespread, that does not mean it’s true. I don’t know if the JW’s believe those things or not, perhaps you’re getting the two confused. I do know that there are a lot of books out there about Mormonism that are based on lies and misperceptions that only serve to spread illusions about it that people buy into, similar to the “It’s on the Internet, it must be true” mentality.

 

[rpp]

Having been raised in that church and having listened to their beliefs all my life, I must respectfully disagree with you. They do not teach that God was once mortal. They teach that He is eternal. They absolutely do not teach that all people can become gods. Even to gain authority over your own progeny, you must fulfill certain things, and they do NOT say that you are a god or equal to God. That is just as untrue as saying that Catholics worship Mary or the Saints or that they (Catholics) believe the Pope is perfect. Just because a belief about a denomination or religion’s belief system is widespread, that does not mean it’s true. I don’t know if the JW’s believe those things or not, perhaps you’re getting the two confused. I do know that there are a lot of books out there about Mormonism that are based on lies and misperceptions that only serve to spread illusions about it that people buy into, similar to the “It’s on the Internet, it must be true” mentality.

Perhaps you should look at what **Mormons **said about Mormonism on this thread then.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=209309

Here are some other sources that flatly contradict what you are saying about Mormonism.

Note that thiese are links to a Mormon sites, not an anti-Mormon site.
zerinus.blogspot.com/
lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-1,00.html

What they say about God the Father:

Because we are made in his image (see Moses 6:9), we know that God has a body that looks like ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). God’s body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description.

lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-4,00.html

What they say about Jesus and the Incarnation. Note that they claim Satan is the younger brother of Jesus. For one to be younger, that implies time. Thus neither Jesus nor God the father are eternal.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27).

{snip}

** Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind**, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation.

lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-6,00.html

What they teach about the Holy Ghost (Spirit)

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.

Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.

lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-12,00.html

What they say about the final “Exaltation” or our life in Heaven.

Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, “This is my work and my glory–to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. 
   *]They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
   *]They will become gods.
   *]They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
   *]They will receive a fulness of joy.
   *]They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have–all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

1. 
   lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html
   
   Note: All emphasis in all the preceding quotes are mine.
   
   Again I want to remind you that this comes from an LDS (Mormon) site, not an anti-Catholic site. Your understanding may be different, but that is not because Mormons did not teach it.
   
   Addiitonally, here is an article from First Things, a Catholic publication.
   firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2550&var_recherche=Mormons#mormonism

 

[Parysa]

I had never seen that before. (Referring to the lds site.) In that case, I guess I was wrong. However, I can say that that’s not how our ward taught it and that’s not how my friends and family nor I understood it. I asked my dad earlier and he explained it completely differently (he’s not anymore, but used to be zealously Mormon). I was never baptised into the Mormon church (I wanted to be when I was 8, but my mother forbade it) and when I got old enough to start questioning things, I decided Joseph Smith was a false prophet and I quit going to church there. I still don’t think that all of its members are not Christian, because most of the ones I know DON’T believe those things you pointed out. That’s the “great” (sarcasm) thing about Protestantism, you “get to” pick and choose what parts of church doctrine you want to believe. Funny thing is, my dad did say that they do not look at themselves as Protestants. They view Protestantism as being European-based.

 

[RWMorris]

So is Protestantism the greatest (most damaging) heresy in Christian history?

Yes, I believe it is. Having been a Protestant for the first 52 years of my life, drifting from Baptists, the Assemblies of God, the Christian Church, to the Episcopal Church, and a Catholic for the past two years, I can see where you are coming from. I will say this though, Protestantism is the greatest sin of the Catholic Church.

So we humbly beg pardon of God and of our separated brethren, just as we forgive them that trespass against us.
- DECREE ON ECUMENISM, Chapter II, Section 7

And the greatest sin of Protestantism is not returning to a reformed Church after the Catholic Reformation. Jesus never intended his Church to splinter, and in fact, it hasn’t. The Roman Catholic Church is still the Church that was founded by Jesus and it always will be, just as he promised.

So all you Protestants out there, it is not too late to return to the Church Christ founded. Read some early Church Fathers. Then read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating. Pick up a copy of Scott and Kimberly Hahn’s “Rome Sweet Home”, and then attend a RCIA class. If that doesn’t convince you, then continue on the path you are on and pray for us. We need your prayers.

[We] Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. For God is always wonderful in His works and worthy of all praise.

• DECREE ON ECUMENISM, Chapter I, Section 4

 

[Good_Fella]

The damage has not even begun. Nevertheless, if it were not for denominationalism/Protestantism, the fracturing of Christendom, we would not have legalized abortion, the sanctioning of murder of 40,000,000 babies in the U.S. alone. Once there was no agreed upon morality chaos ensued. It is directly attributable to denominationalism. The civil government has taken the place of the Church, taken the Church’s God given jurisdiction in the area of moral law. Now we can’t even figure out that men marry women. Moral chaos in society, the confusion we see results from the religion that is the foundation of our society broken into pieces by Protestantism. “A house divided against itself, surely will fall”.

It was a Catholic Minister of Justice in the Trudeau government of Canada that signed the legislation for legal abortion. Unfortunately the same rationalistic and relativistic spirit of Protestantism embraced by a liberal political party had a hold on this cabinet minister who acted against his conscience. I knew a Catholic priest who could have entered politics before entering the seminary, but he was afraid that by becoming a politician and member of a political party (Tories) he would eventually have to oppose his conscience and compromise his Catholic morals to stay in line.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella