Is Protestantism the greatest (most damaging) heresy in Christian history?

[Teflon93]

Properly used, the term “pagan” is not an affective. It is merely a classification based on beliefs. It is neither a pejorative nor a compliment.

I have not seen “pagan” used as a pejorative in this thread.

It is a sign of our times that political correctness has gone so far that merely labeling accurately one’s beliefs is insulting them.

If the Christadelphians worship God, and God alone, they are not pagans, but simply are not Christians, rejecting the Nicene Creed which defines Christianity. They are in the same boat as Jews or Gnostics or any of a host of others.

If they worship God plus other gods, or worship other gods instead, they are pagans.

If they worship no gods at all, they are atheists.

Never having heard of them, I couldn’t say what they believe.

It should be noted, however, that there are a number of mystery religions which claim to be Christian and yet have a radically different understanding of Christianity than Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, so much so that there is legitimate question as to whether they can truly be said to be Christian at all. One must be careful that what they claim to believe and what they actually teach may be very different.

 

[Timmy_Z]

Once there was no agreed upon morality chaos ensued.

And prior to the reformation we lived in a moral utopia brought on by the RCC

Lets not forget much of the schism was not doctrinal but against moral abuses of the church.

It is most devastating when it leads to the break down of morals where everyone choses what they think is right and nobody can tell them to stop

Unfortunately, that is how I would best describe the majority of RCCism.

-Tim

 

[grandfather]

And prior to the reformation we lived in a moral utopia brought on by the RCC

Lets not forget much of the schism was not doctrinal but against moral abuses of the church.

Unfortunately, that is how I would best describe the majority of RCCism.

-Tim

Man is sinful. There has never been a moral utopia. The Church is charged by Christ with teaching the nations. He gives His Church moral authority to teach the nations until the end of time. He promises to be behind that which is taught, in His statement on binding and loosing. Whatever you bind on earth I will bind in heaven. We have assurance of knowing moral truths in the Church through His promise. Outside the Church there is no such assurance according to the words of Christ we find in scripture. Although there has never been a moral utopia we can have moral certainty about what is right and wrong through the means revealed by Christ in scripture. There is a difference between doing and knowing what is right and wrong. Our society suffers moral confusion. This is undeniable. It is visible. Our government sanctions the murder of innocents in the womb and we can no long figure out men marry women. It is debatable, which in itelf is bizarre. The reason for moral confusion is the belief that individuals can decide truth for themsleves. This is Protestant notion and it is practiced in Protestantism in denomiationalism, the destruction of the unity which is commanded of us by Christ. He commands us to be one body not thousands. Our society does not have agreement on moral norms, as a society. There is no moral code that is ours. Again we can not agree that men marry women any longer. There is a cause for this confusion. Some say this is good. Whatever the case, there is reason for the confusion.

To say much of the cause of the destruction of unity was based on moral abuse and not doctrinal division is simply wrong. The debates between Luther and the Catholics were soley doctrinal.

Look at Catholicism however you like. If you do not agree with it be something else, whatever you will. Join a religion or make one up. Belong to whatever religion whose precepts or doctrines you decide for yourself are true, that you believe. If you do not believe the teachings, all of them, of a religion that you belong to, you should leave, or you are a hypocrit. Best wishes to you on your journey. Truly, best wishes. God bless you.

 

[Timmy_Z]

Our government sanctions the murder of innocents in the womb and we can no long figure out men marry women. It is debatable, which in itelf is bizarre. The reason for moral confusion is the belief that individuals can decide truth for themsleves. This is Protestant notion and it is practiced in Protestantism in denomiationalism

Blaming protestantism for today’s moral confusion seems like quite a stretch. You point to abortion and “gay marriage”. How many RC’s compared to how many Evangelicals are confused on these two issues? Are you aware of any scientific studies on these? Personally, most every RC I know is very liberal on these two issues. Most all of our liberal politicians who enable these practices to remain legal are RC. I know Evangelicals are the base of the pro-life, pro-family conservative movement. RCs seem to split or vote liberal.

The debates between Luther and the Catholics were soley doctrinal.

To the best of my knowledge Luther’s initial objection at the RCC was their fleecing of people for indulgences. (rightfully so)

From Wikipedia (under Reformation):
Many western Christians were troubled by what they saw as false doctrines and malpractices within the Roman Catholic Church, particularly involving the teaching and sale of indulgences. Another major contention was the practice of buying and selling church positions (simony) and the tremendous corruption found at the time within the Roman Catholic Church’s hierarchy. This corruption was systemic at the time, even reaching the position of the Pope.[2]

1. selling indulgences
2. selling religuous positions
3. corruption

All moral issues to me.

Best wishes to you on your journey. Truly, best wishes. God bless you.

Thank you.

God bless,
Tim

 

[grandfather]

Blaming protestantism for today’s moral confusion seems like quite a stretch. You point to abortion and “gay marriage”. How many RC’s compared to how many Evangelicals are confused on these two issues? Are you aware of any scientific studies on these? Personally, most every RC I know is very liberal on these two issues. Most all of our liberal politicians who enable these practices to remain legal are RC. I know Evangelicals are the base of the pro-life, pro-family conservative movement. RCs seem to split or vote liberal.

 

[MH84]

No. The’re Pagan.

No, not at all. The Romas had pagan gods. I don’t thing they would be heretics. I think it has to be Christian first, and go from there to be a heretic.

Oh, so does that mean Arianism wasnt a heresy? Was Arius a pagan?

 

[Church_Militant]

Oh, so does that mean Arianism wasnt a heresy? Was Arius a pagan?

Material heresy can really only come from within the church. Pagans would be errors, until and unless some believer asserted them to be good doctrine.

 

[jmcrae]

Material heresy can really only come from within the church. Pagans would be errors, until and unless some believer asserted them to be good doctrine.

Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t just appear out of nowhere. They started off as Methodists, who in their turn started off as Anglicans, who in their turn came about because of a *political *schism with the Church.

Therefore, they are heretics; not pagans.

 

[beckycmarie]

To-may-to, to-mah-to, why does it matter if they’re pagan or heretics? No matter what you call them, they’re still wrong.

 

[jmcrae]

To-may-to, to-mah-to, why does it matter if they’re pagan or heretics? No matter what you call them, they’re still wrong.

The proper use of language is essential to good communication and credibility. If you don’t use the words that you intend to mean, it’s difficult for other people to know what you’re talking about, or to take you seriously.

 

[Teflon93]

The proper use of language is essential to good communication and credibility. If you don’t use the words that you intend to mean, it’s difficult for other people to know what you’re talking about, or to take you seriously.

You’re right.

There’s a reason why they’re called “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and not “Jupiter’s Witnesses”, after all.

Heretic, not pagan. (There’s a gameshow title for you!)

 

[beckycmarie]

Heretic, not pagan. (There’s a gameshow title for you!)

LOL @ your gameshow idea.

Thanks for the answer to my question, jmcrae.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Lepanto and Cardinalsong, thank-you very much for your prayers. I’ll try praying for you whenever I do for myself, Cardinalsong, as we probably need about the same things.

May God bless us and grant us the strength to not only persevere, but to do so with an incessantly loving attitude from Christ Jesus.

I’m not saying 100% we would. I think we would. I’m basing that on the idea that as a race, we’re dumb as rocks at times. (We don’t have the best track record) I think one way or another people would have started to disregard the authority the Church has.

That may be. But it’s a bit immaterial, for historically, this is the way it did happen. And at least we can see that when the Catholic Church did have real power, this kind of behavior could not happen.

By the way, Grandfather, when you cite abortion as one of the great evils to emerge from the Reformation, you can also cite the monstrosities of Communism, for that ideology came from the Enlightenment, which was caused by freedom of religion > Religious Wars > the Reformation.

 

[rpp]

Reletivistic morality did not come from Protestantism. For centuries, Protestant denominations held virtually identical moral positions as the Catholic Church.

It was the advent of secular, anti-Christian philosophers and leaders like Voltaire, Nietzsche, Hegel, and yes, even Thomas Jefferson, that brought about these changes.

As fun as it might be (for Catholics), it is not historically accurate to place the blame for the erosion of morality at the feet of Protestants it is neither charitable, nor true.

However, I will concede that rudderless, (without a Pope) many denominations succumbed to the pressure of the secular world out of a misplaced sense of charity.

This does bear repeating.

 

[Teflon93]

This does bear repeating.

It also bears noting that charity never requires giving up your faith for the benefit of comity.

“Live and let live” is not a charitable attitude when it consigns your neighbor to the pit.

Thus, the “misplaced charity” in the quote which bears repeating.

Calling someone a heretic in this day and age will never be popular among heretics.

Claiming there is no such thing as heresy, on the other hand, will not please God.

One cannot serve God and Mammon both.

 

[rpp]

It also bears noting that charity never requires giving up your faith for the benefit of comity.

“Live and let live” is not a charitable attitude when it consigns your neighbor to the pit.

Thus, the “misplaced charity” in the quote which bears repeating.

Calling someone a heretic in this day and age will never be popular among heretics.

Claiming there is no such thing as heresy, on the other hand, will not please God.

One cannot serve God and Mammon both.

I was not referring to the actual heresies adopted by the various Protestant groups. I was, rather, referring to the fact that some attempt to lay blame for public immorally solely at the feet of Protestants. That is a position that is unsupportable. That Protestantism has caused great harm in indisputable, but I will not call them the bogey-man or the source of all the failings of mankind.

But mocking and berating people will not attract them to the truth.

 

[Teflon93]

I was not referring to the actual heresies adopted by the various Protestant groups. I was, rather, referring to the fact that some attempt to lay blame for public immorally solely at the feet of Protestants. That is a position that is unsupportable. That Protestantism has caused great harm in indisputable, but I will not call them the bogey-man or the source of all the failings of mankind.

But mocking and berating people will not attract them to the truth.

Was someone asking you to?

“Greatest” and “most” doesn’t imply “only”—it refutes it.

 

[RomanCrusader]

Some consider Islam a heresy, but personally I see it as a pagan religion never connected with Christianity.

To call Islam heresy would hint that there is some truth in Islam, which is totally wrong!

 

[Cardinalsong]

I am praying for both you and Leif. God bless you.

Thank you Lepanto.

 

[Cardinalsong]

Lepanto and Cardinalsong, thank-you very much for your prayers. I’ll try praying for you whenever I do for myself, Cardinalsong, as we probably need about the same things.

May God bless us and grant us the strength to not only persevere, but to do so with an incessantly loving attitude from Christ Jesus.

Thank you Lief.