Is Purgatory in the bible

[zz912]

The Apostles Creed says he descended into hell and arose on the third day before ascending into heaven.

The “hell” spoken of there is not the hell of the damned, but the place where the righteous dead were waiting for heaven to be opened. There are two different words in the original language, and it was using the second, not the first.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The “hell” spoken of there is not the hell of the damned, but the place where the righteous dead were waiting for heaven to be opened. There are two different words in the original language, and it was using the second, not the first.

I’m not sure you are but if you are saying you believe Jesus went to purgatory. why doesn’t the Apostles Creed just use that word?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Did Jesus go to Heaven on Good Friday?

Answer: No.

Jesus didn’t ascend to Heaven until 40 days after Easter Sunday. On Good Friday He went to the souls in “prison” (those righteous who were waiting for Heaven to be opened).

Jesus is the One Who reportedly said, “Today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Do you think that He meant what He said or something else?

If something else, do you have a clue, what that might have been?

If Jesus meant what He said, are you saying that the “Paradise” that Jesus spoke of is something other than heaven?

 

[Tom_Baum]

The “hell” spoken of there is not the hell of the damned, but the place where the righteous dead were waiting for heaven to be opened. There are two different words in the original language, and it was using the second, not the first.

“My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”

Do you think that Jesus thought that this was a good time to say a psalm and He picked this one or that this psalm, a prophecy, was coming true as Jesus said it?

Supposedly, Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself at the cross and “paid the ransom”, why wouldn’t He have also went to hell which was/is the “price of the ransom”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hi Tom,

I’m a bit confused. Your heading say’s you’re a Catholic but the bible verses you share are very much that of an uninformed Protestant. Not that it is a problem for me. Just asking.

What many Protestants do is confuse what Christ COULD HAVE done and what Christ Actually DID Chose to Do.

If God had NOT Created humanity in His Very Image; Gen.1:26-27; with a intellect, mind and freewill, for the precise purpose of being therefore of being ABLE to freely choose Divine Worship; Isaiah 43 verses 7 & 21, then God might have chosen to save everyone; or at least, everyone “who calls on “His Name.” Professes Him as their “God and Personal Savior. Which is a recent Protestant reformation teaching*** from the 13th to 17th Century***; an man made religion and Innovation that actually competes with what God Himself DID choose to teach and do. Mt. 10: 1-8; Mt. 16:15-19; Mt. 18:18; John 17: 11-26, Mk. 16: 14-15. Mt. 28:16-20. ALL of which affirm Christ Choice of One God; with only One [that is all that is possible even for God] Faith, and following his own OT choice of JUST one Chosen People Lev. 18:14 {Tom this site will make looking up the evidence easy: http://drbo.org/

Jn. 3:5 “Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God”

Mt. 19:17 “Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Mk. 10:15 “Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall not enter into it.”

Hebrews 5:9 “And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation” Mt. 16:18-19 “

Matt. 12: 30 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.

Jesus speaking to Peter “Luke 22:29 “And I dispose to you, as my Father hath disposed to me, a kingdom” READ Jn.21:15–17

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

John 10: 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Tom, the keys to Christ Kingdom are given directly and ONLY to the Peter and his successors. Mt. 16:18-19. Heaven , Hell and Purgatory ALL exist as evidence of God’s Mercy and Divine Justice And because we ARE Created with the ability to choose; we then MUST do so for ourselves.

James 2:24 "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only"

Rev. 2:23 And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

God Bless you,
Patrick

Concerning, "I’m a bit confused. Your heading say’s you’re a Catholic but the bible verses you share are very much that of an uninformed Protestant. Not that it is a problem for me. Just asking.

The “bible verses” that I spoke of seem to be in bibles that are considered “Catholic” and bibles that are considered “Protestant”, they are NOT, as far as I know, in just one or the other.

Maybe I am just a catholic Catholic whereas some Catholics do not think that God’s Plan could be catholic.

Also concerning, “uninformed Protestant”, just because someone has a different opinion does not mean that they are “uninformed”, seems to me that they could very well have been informed but have come to a different conclusion.

As far as, “What many Protestants do is confuse what Christ COULD HAVE done and what Christ Actually DID Chose to Do.”

Seems as if some of the prayers at Mass and in general usage are at least “hoping” for God’s Plan to somehow unfold in a completely catholic way.

By the way, the verses that you quoted in your reply are NOT the only verses in the bible concerning God’s Covenants with man and God’s work in the Incarnation.

Could be that the verses you quoted and the verses that you omitted, some of these may be referred to by some as “uninformed Protestant” verses, are not “contradictory” as they may seem but are “complementary” in God’s Ways and Thoughts.

And as far as “God’s Mercy and God’s Justice”, I believe that Divine Mercy and Divine Justice are so intertwined as to be One.

I don’t think that only Protestants are allowed to think using the mental abilities that God has given to ALL.

It can be quite a shocker to take a blind leap of faith with one’s eyes wide open, at least it was for me.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I’m not sure you are but if you are saying you believe Jesus went to purgatory. why doesn’t the Apostles Creed just use that word?

This is a GUESS, merely a guess, but it could be that the Apostles Creed came about before the thoughts on Purgatory came about.

Anyone know one way or the other?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Concerning, "I’m a bit confused. Your heading say’s you’re a Catholic but the bible verses you share are very much that of an uninformed Protestant. Not that it is a problem for me. Just asking.

The “bible verses” that I spoke of seem to be in bibles that are considered “Catholic” and bibles that are considered “Protestant”, they are NOT, as far as I know, in just one or the other.

Maybe I am just a catholic Catholic whereas some Catholics do not think that God’s Plan could be catholic.

Also concerning, “uninformed Protestant”, just because someone has a different opinion does not mean that they are “uninformed”, seems to me that they could very well have been informed but have come to a different conclusion.

As far as, “What many Protestants do is confuse what Christ COULD HAVE done and what Christ Actually DID Chose to Do.”

Seems as if some of the prayers at Mass and in general usage are at least “hoping” for God’s Plan to somehow unfold in a completely catholic way.

By the way, the verses that you quoted in your reply are NOT the only verses in the bible concerning God’s Covenants with man and God’s work in the Incarnation.

Could be that the verses you quoted and the verses that you omitted, some of these may be referred to by some as “uninformed Protestant” verses, are not “contradictory” as they may seem but are “complementary” in God’s Ways and Thoughts.

And as far as “God’s Mercy and God’s Justice”, I believe that Divine Mercy and Divine Justice are so intertwined as to be One.

I don’t think that only Protestants are allowed to think using the mental abilities that God has given to ALL.

It can be quite a shocker to take a blind leap of faith with one’s eyes wide open, at least it was for me.

Amen to this. I was wondering too why the verses you quoted were objected to as being of “uninformed Protestants” when they seemingly aren’t limited to Protestants. And totally agree that “uninformed Protestant” does not mean someone is uninformed. You are correct. They very well could be informed but merely have reached a different conclusion.

 

[Sy_Noe]

This is a GUESS, merely a guess, but it could be that the Apostles Creed came about before the thoughts on Purgatory came about.

Anyone know one way or the other?

Thanks. I don’t know but it could be your guess is right. If Jesus went to purgatory and the thoughts on purgatory had come about in time for the Creed, I would have thought the Creed might have reflected it.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Hi Tom,

I’m a bit confused. Your heading say’s you’re a Catholic but the bible verses you share are very much that of an uninformed Protestant.

Me too. You’re heading says you’re an informed Catholic. To quote from an answer to a question given by CAF apologist Fr Grondin last month, “Technically there is no such things as a former Catholic. Once baptized Catholic, or received into the Church, that person is always considered a Catholic”. An informed Catholic I would think would know such basic teaching and not be confused by such a heading. Assuming of course Tom or anyone else for that matter was baptized in a Catholic Church or received into it. It can cause confusion for those who don’t know Catholic teaching in regard to who the Church considers Catholic, when the “informed” question it.

 

[pablope]

The Apostles Creed says he descended into hell and arose on the third day before ascending into heaven.

It is a translation issue, as far as I can recall, from the word “Hades”:

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23).

 

[pablope]

Jesus is the One Who reportedly said, “Today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Do you think that He meant what He said or something else?

If something else, do you have a clue, what that might have been?

If Jesus meant what He said, are you saying that the “Paradise” that Jesus spoke of is something other than heaven?

Eric posted the relevant verse where Jesus went on Good Friday through Easter:

A clue to where Jesus went immediately after dying on the cross can be found in 1 Peter 3:18-20:

18 “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”

What Paradise meant to the Jews:newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23).

And these Icons depict the actual understanding and teaching of the Church, in early Christianity:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=725074

The Good Thief is depicted as that man carrying the cross, with Abraham, in Abraham’s bosom or Paradise.

 

[zz912]

I’m not sure you are but if you are saying you believe Jesus went to purgatory. why doesn’t the Apostles Creed just use that word?

Because we don’t know definitively if He went to Purgatory, Abraham’s Bosom, or another resting place of the dead. The word used is the word for hades, and not the word for hell. When translated into English it was translated as hell and they haven’t changed it for whatever reason.

But the word used is NOT the word for what we consider hell, but instead of hades.

 

[zz912]

Jesus is the One Who reportedly said, “Today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Do you think that He meant what He said or something else?

If something else, do you have a clue, what that might have been?

If Jesus meant what He said, are you saying that the “Paradise” that Jesus spoke of is something other than heaven?

You’re assuming that “paradise” here means Heaven. I don’t see a reason for assuming that. The Garden of Eden was a paradise, but it wasn’t Heaven. I see it as Jesus telling the Good Thief that he will be with Him in the Bosom of Abraham that day.

 

[zz912]

“My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”

Do you think that Jesus thought that this was a good time to say a psalm and He picked this one or that this psalm, a prophecy, was coming true as Jesus said it?

Supposedly, Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself at the cross and “paid the ransom”, why wouldn’t He have also went to hell which was/is the “price of the ransom”?

He took on death, an infinite, eternal sacrifice to atone and pay for our sins. But He did not go to hell, as that is impossible. Hell is the complete separation from God, and as Jesus IS God, He can never be separated from God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

He took on death, an infinite, eternal sacrifice to atone and pay for our sins. But He did not go to hell, as that is impossible. Hell is the complete separation from God, and as Jesus IS God, He can never be separated from God.

Are you saying that hell is NOT included in the “PRICE OF SIN” since Jesus “paid the ransom” as part of His work on the cross?

Jesus did NOT say, “Simon thou art Peter and upon this rock, I will build My Church and the gates of death shall not prevail against It”, did He?

No, He didn’t.

He SAID, “Simon thou art Peter and upon this rock, I will build My Church and the gates of the NETHERWORLD shall not prevail against It”.

Jesus did NOT just take on death but He took on hell and the power of hell and Jesus WON a TOTAL VICTORY, not merely a tie.

Many talk about how much Jesus did on the cross for us and don’t have a clue just how much God really did do for ALL on the cross and just what God-Incarnate went thru.

Just because we think that something is IMPOSSIBLE for God does NOT mean that it is impossible for God.

Jesus did NOT pay part of the ransom, Jesus paid ALL OF THE RANSOM.

 

[Erich]

It is written, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills EVERYONE to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

Saying “God wills EVERYONE to be saved” is not even close to the same as saying “EVERYONE will be saved.” Just because God wills (i.e. wishes or desires) something doesn’t mean it’s going to happen that way. We still have free will and can choose to disobey God. If we didn’t have free will, we’d just be puppets on a string. Before the Incarnation could occur, Mary still had to say, “let it be done to me according to your word.”

Matthew – who was an eyewitness Apostle – tells us in his Gospel that at the Last Supper, Jesus said, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Or, do you believe that all are in fact saved, regardless of their relationship to Christ and his Church?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Saying “God wills EVERYONE to be saved” is not even close to the same as saying “EVERYONE will be saved.” Just because God wills (i.e. wishes or desires) something doesn’t mean it’s going to happen that way. We still have free will and can choose to disobey God. If we didn’t have free will, we’d just be puppets on a string. Before the Incarnation could occur, Mary still had to say, “let it be done to me according to your word.”

Matthew – who was an eyewitness Apostle – tells us in his Gospel that at the Last Supper, Jesus said, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Or, do you believe that all are in fact saved, regardless of their relationship to Christ and his Church?

You wrote, "Saying “God wills EVERYONE to be saved” is not even close to the same as saying “EVERYONE will be saved.” "

I am not the first to say “God wills EVERYONE to be saved”, it was said and written in the bible, I just copied it out of there, and I happen to think that it is nice that it is God’s Will that All be saved and since God-Incarnate asked us to pray “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…”, I, personally, would rather pray for God’s Will to be done than anyone else’s will, especially, concerning this.

You also wrote, “Just because God wills (i.e. wishes or desires) something doesn’t mean it’s going to happen that way.”

Pretty much in the same vein that you wrote concerning what is written about God’s Will, someone else once said to me, “It is only God’s Will”.

It was God’s Will that Mary say YES and she did and since it is “God’s Will that ALL be saved”, maybe the “least” that we can do is at least pray for it as God-Incarnate asked us to do.

I happen to believe that what Jesus did on the cross is for more than those that were already the “elect”.

Of course I believe that, ultimately, ALL ARE SAVED.

I happen to believe that God “won” a TOTAL VICTORY on the cross and in that TOTAL VICTORY is a TOTAL DEFEAT for satan.

By the way, “many” in the bible can also mean ALL just as a “thousand” in the bible can also mean “unlimited”.

Ever thought that Christianity might be about more than the “individual” getting to the “good place”?

Jesus supposedly died for us and extended the invitation to “Come follow Me”, ever thought that Jesus was asking us to “die for others” rather than to just get to the “good place” ourself?

Jesus did say that “there was work to be done”, didn’t He?

 

[Shin]

‘Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to be saved [1 Tim. 2:4 ] although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one who saves; that certain ones perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish.’

Council of Quiersy

“That all Christians are to be saved.”

[Condemned in the letter “Cum sicut,” Nov. 14, 1459]

Pope Pius II

‘Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!’

Matthew 7:13-14

‘. . . a greater number is lost through false confidence than through excessive fear.’

Ven. Louis de Granada

 

[Erich]

Of course I believe that, ultimately, ALL ARE SAVED.

It is evident from the Bible that baptism saves, that the baptized can deny Christ, and that those who deny Christ will not be saved unless they repent, as did Peter.

It is not evident from the Bible that “ultimately, ALL ARE SAVED” (including ALL who deny Christ). Or, are you claiming that a Christian *could *commit grave sins and still remain saved? that sin does not injure one’s relationship with God at all?

 

[Tom_Baum]

It is evident from the Bible that baptism saves, that the baptized can deny Christ, and that those who deny Christ will not be saved unless they repent, as did Peter.

It is not evident from the Bible that “ultimately, ALL ARE SAVED” (including ALL who deny Christ). Or, are you claiming that a Christian *could *commit grave sins and still remain saved? that sin does not injure one’s relationship with God at all?

I would say that Jesus, God-Incarnate, is our Saviour, not baptism.

As far as “baptism”, you have heard the phrase “One Baptism for the forgiveness of sin/s”, haven’t you?

Jesus kinda made a point out of it being important that John baptize Him, could there be more there than meets the eye of some?

Sometimes God does things right in front of us and we do not see, just as it is written, “You have ears but do not hear, you have eyes but do not see”.

I am claiming that God is God and we ain’t and that, ultimately, it is in God’s Hands.

Some seem to think that “God’s Will” is meaningless.

I think that it is definitely something to ponder, that it is “GOD’S WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED”.

When the Apostles asked Jesus concerning, “Who can be saved?”, Jesus responded, “With man it is impossible, with God ALL things are possible”, something else that I would consider ponderable material.

Jesus even taught us to pray: “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy WILL be done…”, “Thy” referring to God, ever thought that besides being a prayer, that which is referred to as the “Lord’s Prayer” has much to ponder?

I have heard that some of the “desert fathers” spent their whole lives contemplating the first two words, “OUR FATHER”, of the Lord’s Prayer, I don’t know if this is a fact but it very well could be.

“OUR”, as in humanity’s, “Father” as in Dad, everyone who ever was, is or will be’s Dad.