Is RCIA too great a barrier of entry into the Church?

[PJM]

=1patterson;10679305]1patterson

Jesus didn’t say it ain’t supposted to be hard-- he said it was light and easy-- but it is helpful to recognize who the enemy is-- because catholics seem to be trained that it is other bible believers–are the enemy

and this is a deception of religion and the devil

SUFFERING

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

PJM

If, as I understand your position; your implication is that anyone can read and interpret the bible and come to there own

[and by that standard alone…the correct understanding], the preponderance of evidence in the number of non-catholic - christian faiths clearlyproves your in error.So does the bible itself.

My FRIEND;

While I can’t and don’t speak for others; I have been active on the CAF oa long time.

Catholics like ME, DO NOT think of other faiths as “enemies”; misinfored; uniformed; and sometimes not open to God’s “truth” which has to be SINGUALR per defiend issue; but NEVER as enemies.

But its NOT personal! It’s NOT a war! It’s only exposing the singular truths that Christ; our Perfect God taught and COMMANDED US to do; YES “COmmanded US Catholics to do”

Mk. 16: 14-15 "At length he [Jesus] appeared to the eleven {Apostles] as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again.** And he said to them:** Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature".

Directly to and ONLY too the Apostles and through them with the CHANGED Mandate “to the entire world” by absoulate necessity creating Succession.

Mt. 28:18-20 “And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, **teach ye all nations; **baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold **I am with you **all days, even to the consummation of the world”

Jn. 21:14-17 "This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to his disciples [APOSTLES], after he was risen from the dead. When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He[Jesus] saith to him: Feed my lambs. He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep

Look at Mt. 10;1-8 if in doubt

Now I WISH TO MAKE CLEAR THAT NEVER HAVE I ADVOCATED SELF-INTERPERTATION OF THE BIBLE.

Eph.3: 9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him"

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

 

[catholictiger]

look those who enter the Catholic Faith need to understand what the Church teaches and why she teaches it. The reason is that in oder to be a good catholic you have to understand what the Church teaches. Its not like some protestant Churches, “I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior. Even though I don’t agree with everything the worship center says they are close to my house and I need to public accept Jesus. All that matters is my relationship with Jesus.” The Catholic church has always held that one should know and believe what the Church teaches especially with the sacraments. I’m not an expert at sacramental theology but if someone doesn’t believe in the power of confession but still confesses I believe it is an invalid confession. The person would have no intent to be forgiven of his sins in confession making it invalid. Also its a sacrilege to receive Jesus in the Eucharist if you just believe the eucharist is a piece of bread. You would never show any reverence to a piece of bread.

My basic point is that one must know what the Catholic Church teaches to be Catholic. That is why RCIA is necessary.

 

[shelly5254]

I am currently in rcia. We finish in a few weeks. Its been a 7 month program (my husband and i jumped in in january) personally i feel the book we are using is not enough at all. We have not learned anything about the mass and why we do what we do. We havent learned much at all about what it means to be catholic. Im not saying i havent learned anything because i have. I just dont feel we have been taught nearly enough about being catholic. Joining the church was a HUGE deal for me! I wanted to be sure i knew what i was joining and i dont feel i was prepared very well at all. I do not regret this path in any way! I LOVE the faith! I just feel that i have had to learn on my own through reading materials and many many many questions.

 

[PJM]

=catholictiger;10679942]look those who enter the Catholic Faith need to understand what the Church teaches and why she teaches it. The reason is that in oder to be a good catholic you have to understand what the Church teaches. Its not like some protestant Churches, “I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior. Even though I don’t agree with everything the worship center says they are close to my house and I need to public accept Jesus. All that matters is my relationship with Jesus.” The Catholic church has always held that one should know and believe what the Church teaches especially with the sacraments. I’m not an expert at sacramental theology but if someone doesn’t believe in the power of confession but still confesses I believe it is an invalid confession. The person would have no intent to be forgiven of his sins in confession making it invalid. Also its a sacrilege to receive Jesus in the Eucharist if you just believe the eucharist is a piece of bread. You would never show any reverence to a piece of bread.

My basic point is that one must know what the Catholic Church teaches to be Catholic. That is why RCIA is necessary.

GREAT post:thumbsup:

I’m NO thologian either; but I’m NOT SURE your right [nor am I SURE that your wrong either

2 points:

Why would anyone who choose not to believe in the Sacrament of Confession bother going?

IT"S God THROUGH His Priest Making the Forgiveness a reality. “Imperfect contrition” such as a fear of hell more than a love OF GOD DOES NOT invalidate the Sacrament; nor does a serious “habit” or “addiction.”

So I do HOPE some expert DOES answer this issue

You are “Spot-On” with the need to Know what we Catholic believe.

**Confirmation creates a very PERSONAL “covenant relationship” between the Confirned [MEANING IDO UNDERSTAND AND I DO BELIEVE AND I DO ACCEPT AND I WILL OBEY FAITHFULLY ALL THAT THE CC TEACHES," and our [their GOD!]

One ought not to enter into this type of relationship haphazardly; ill-prepared; or half-heartedly. Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

Only the Catholic Church has the Key’s TO HEAVEN; and all salvation does necessarily flow THROUGH the CC. AND the CC ALONE has the FULLNESS of God’s own; SINGULAR truths on ALL matters of Faith and or Morals.

So one who is underinformend; uninformed or complacit about practicing God’s Faith; in the Only Church He Founded, is shorting God DUE, and themselves.

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

 

[Loobyloo0209]

My parish don’t offer RCIA…I enquired as mentioned before but the priest has just advised to go along for “instruction”…what is that? Is it the same as RCiA? Leah

 

[jhyer]

My wife and I just completed RCIA this year prior to joining the Church at Easter Vigil and we absolutely loved our class. Whereas I had studied and read a good bit prior to class, my wife is not so inclined so, the class was key in her learning and loving the Faith. Honestly, I wish the classes were longer in terms of number as there is more and more I discover each day that would be helpful to discuss in class (I am looking into bible studies at the moment).

 

[catholictiger]

GREAT post:thumbsup:

I’m NO thologian either; but I’m NOT SURE your right [nor am I SURE that your wrong either

2 points:

Why would anyone who choose not to believe in the Sacrament of Confession bother going?

IT"S God THROUGH His Priest Making the Forgiveness a reality. “Imperfect contrition” such as a fear of hell more than a love OF GOD DOES NOT invalidate the Sacrament; nor does a serious “habit” or “addiction.”

So I do HOPE some expert DOES answer this issue

You are “Spot-On” with the need to Know what we Catholic believe.

**Confirmation creates a very PERSONAL “covenant relationship”

between the Confirned [MEANING IDO UNDERSTAND AND I DO BELIEVE AND I DO ACCEPT AND I WILL OBEY FAITHFULLY ALL THAT THE CC TEACHES," and our [their GOD!]

One ought not to enter into this type of relationship haphazardly; ill-prepared; or half-heartedly. Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

Only the Catholic Church has the Key’s TO HEAVEN; and all salvation does necessarily flow THROUGH the CC. AND the CC ALONE has the FULLNESS of God’s own; SINGULAR truths on ALL matters of Faith and or Morals.

So one who is underinformend; uninformed or complacit about practicing God’s Faith; in the Only Church He Founded, is shorting God DUE, and themselves.

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

just real quick

3 things make a sacrament valid

form matter and intent.

not sure if the person who is confessing must have the correct intent. If someone who doesn’t believe in the power of confession goes to confession they probably wouldn’t intend their sins to be forgiven which may make it invalid. But i’m not sure.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

My parish don’t offer RCIA…I enquired as mentioned before but the priest has just advised to go along for “instruction”…what is that? Is it the same as RCiA? Leah

Did you ask him what is the process for initiation into the Church?

Here is the Adult Faith Formation page from the Diocese of Westminster website. Your village may not lie within this Diocese, but since Catholic Churches are fairly standardized, there should be some process in place for you to get instruction and come into the Church.

Adult Faith Formation

 

[Loobyloo0209]

No I didn’t ask him that…its all via email as there is no contact number. (There are very few Catholic Churches over here, so unable just to pop in!!). Mine comes within the Diocese of Shrewsbury, will check out your link though for more info. Thanks…

 

[TheRealJuliane]

No I didn’t ask him that…its all via email as there is no contact number. (There are very few Catholic Churches over here, so unable just to pop in!!). Mine comes within the Diocese of Shrewsbury, will check out your link though for more info. Thanks…

Look here as well, they do call it RCIA, but you may have to travel a bit to go to classes. (Never mind, I’ll leave the link up but the website seems to be a bit spotty on the subject of exactly HOW to take RCIA…the page for “Thinking of Becoming a Catholic?” is under construction. )

Good old King Henry VIII took care of a lot of Catholic churches and cathedrals, didn’t he… And of course by “took care” I mean he took care to burn and destroy them…

 

[ManyBlessings6]

I have just complete the RCIA classes. They started in September and ended just after Easter. In my life I have been a member of two other churches. The first one only required you to make a statement of faith in front of the board in order to join. The second church required a 3 hour class. In those churches many people joined but many also left in search of something else. I do believe that RCIA seems like a long time at first but somehow the time just slips by, so much has been learned in such a short amount of time. And you have to really be committed to the process.

It was not easy for me to attend RCIA. Trensportation and child care were huge barriers. We made many sacrifices to be there. Perhaps I would have been less stressed if not for the barriers, but at the same time I truly valued RCIA. Perhaps even more due to overcoming the barriers. I do miss those classes and wish there was another level for after joining to continue to learn and connect.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I have just complete the RCIA classes. They started in September and ended just after Easter. In my life I have been a member of two other churches. The first one only required you to make a statement of faith in front of the board in order to join. The second church required a 3 hour class. In those churches many people joined but many also left in search of something else. I do believe that RCIA seems like a long time at first but somehow the time just slips by, so much has been learned in such a short amount of time. And you have to really be committed to the process.

It was not easy for me to attend RCIA. Trensportation and child care were huge barriers. We made many sacrifices to be there. Perhaps I would have been less stressed if not for the barriers, but at the same time I truly valued RCIA. Perhaps even more due to overcoming the barriers. I do miss those classes and wish there was another level for after joining to continue to learn and connect.

There is! In many parishes, Fr. Robert Barron’s series “Catholicism” has been shown in small groups since the start of Lent. I missed the start of the series but I’m hoping it will be repeated. Ask at your parish! If it hasn’t been done, start the groups yourself!

 

[Loobyloo0209]

Just checked out the link…I don’t think I’m being unfair to say that it offers a lot of potential!! Definately a bit sketchy at the minute. At least I now know where it is. Looks huge though…incredibly daunting compared to my little village church! It also mentioned abot the the follow on sessions by Fr. Robert Barron series that you told the previous poster about. With regard the loss of so many Catholic Churches over here…the few I know of are hidden and can only be entered under the cover of darkness…

 

[GreyRabbit]

I’m glad to hear that some RCIA classes are going well. I was the sponsor for my now-husband, and I have to say, I was really unsatisfied with the classes. Even though it was a year long, I felt like a lot of it was rushed, and while I definitely got a lot of good out of it, as did my husband, I couldn’t help but feel it wasn’t substantial.

I kept feeling like…like we were going though some ropes just to get people in, without really touching on core beliefs and WHY. While I can’t say that maybe it should go on for longer–because after all, Catholicism is so incredibly in-depth that you could spend your entire life devoted to its study and still discover new things, as many have done, and are doing–I wish ours hadn’t felt so superficial.

Another thing that really bugged me, was the issue of abortion, homosexual unions, and such topics were deliberately set aside and not discussed. Even when I asked the head instructor why we didn’t talk about it, he said it would ruffle too many feathers or something very similar. It’s been awhile. It bugs me because I feel that there are too many “Catholics” who think these things are okay, and to me, you CAN’T be Catholic and believe these things are okay. And what about the scandals? Again, these are contemporary issues that aren’t being addressed, or at least they weren’t at the RCIA we went to. Maybe that’s not the case everywhere. But people are losing their faith because of these things, and people are thinking that Catholicism is just another religion that sounds better than the last one so why not join it and if I don’t like a lot of it, just pick and choose, and if I find I don’t like it at all, then just move on.

I just feel that if we can’t take ourselves seriously, how can we expect others to when they say they want to be a part of our family?

Oh man…I’ve bottled this up for way too long… >.>;;

 

[PJM]

=GreyRabbit;10690274]I’m glad to hear that some RCIA classes are going well. I was the sponsor for my now-husband, and I have to say, I was really unsatisfied with the classes. Even though it was a year long, I felt like a lot of it was rushed, and while I definitely got a lot of good out of it, as did my husband, I couldn’t help but feel it wasn’t substantial.

I kept feeling like…like we were going though some ropes just to get people in, without really touching on core beliefs and WHY. While I can’t say that maybe it should go on for longer–because after all, Catholicism is so incredibly in-depth that you could spend your entire life devoted to its study and still discover new things, as many have done, and are doing–I wish ours hadn’t felt so superficial.

Another thing that really bugged me, was the issue of abortion, homosexual unions, and such topics were deliberately set aside and not discussed. Even when I asked the head instructor why we didn’t talk about it, he said it would ruffle too many feathers or something very similar. It’s been awhile. It bugs me because I feel that there are too many “Catholics” who think these things are okay, and to me, you CAN’T be Catholic and believe these things are okay. And what about the scandals? Again, these are contemporary issues that aren’t being addressed, or at least they weren’t at the RCIA we went to. Maybe that’s not the case everywhere. But people are losing their faith because of these things, and people are thinking that Catholicism is just another religion that sounds better than the last one so why not join it and if I don’t like a lot of it, just pick and choose, and if I find I don’t like it at all, then just move on.

I just feel that if we can’t take ourselves seriously, how can we expect others to when they say they want to be a part of our family?

Oh man…I’ve bottled this up for way too long… >.>;;

Having taught RCIA for 3 years, I agree with much of what this poster shares.

Because of the burdens placed on parish priest; these classes are all too often passed off on anyone willing to spend the time to teach. Qualifications and training is too often secondary.

ADD to that a lack of a “universal” program outline and the results are what really OUGHT to be expected.

Pastors and DRE’s NEED to, IMO; make this a MAJOR priority. become more involved personally. After all it a major reason they are priest; to bring people to Christ; as well as a major reason, most parishes have a DRE [Director of Religious education]

The USCCB needs to develope a uniform agenda and prepare suitable materials to be used. Again IMO

I do not think a one Size fits ALL approach is the answer; there must be flexibility; but there also needs to be FORM and Formula. A List of MUST BE covered topiics is essential; and a more National uniformity of beginning and ending dates and length of classes is also prudent.

I have developed as a FYI; a SUPPLEMENTAL to RCIA course; TOTALLY FREE of all cost for anyone interested. It’s done with e-mailed Lessons.

It covers more topics
In greater detail
and emphasis is on providing evidence of What and WHY and How we can believe and practice as we do.

More efforts like this seem very much needed IMO

Continued Blessings,

pat /PJM

 

[Usige]

I do not think a one Size fits ALL approach is the answer; there must be flexibility; but there also needs to be FORM and Formula. A List of MUST BE covered topiics is essentials and a more National uniformity of beginning and ending dates and length of classes is also prudent.

I agree that there needs to be guild lines of what needs to be covered, but I disagree with having set start and stop times.

To be honest the whole school year approach to RCIA is one of it’s biggest downfalls. Becoming Catholic is about interior conversion, not class time. Some have the interior conversion of the heart without knowing the why. It is purely an acceptance of grace. Others have to hear, learn, and debate the why before they open up enough to accept the grace.

We need to stop looking at RCIA as a class where you graduate and receive the sacraments. God calls us each in our own time. Our job in RCIA should be just about helping with a persons discernment just as much as educating them. Some of the stuff in RCIA could frankly wait until after reception into the Church.

 

[m134e5]

I don’t see why converts need to know much more than the typical cradle Catholics sitting in the pews in order to begin participating in the Sacramental life of the Church.

Converts definitely need to know more than the typical cradle Catholics sitting in the pews- and those Catholics, who all too often are severely under-catechized, ought to know more as well. RCIA, if done properly, can be an excellent opportunity to provide adult catechesis which will eventually reinvigorate the parishes.

People need enough time to decide, based on belief rather than emotions, whether or not to become Catholic. If they do not allow this time, the seeds of faith will spring up quickly and scorch in the sun. That being said, two years is ridiculous. It was hard enough to wait as long as I had to wait (16 months)- I wouldn’t recommend making anyone wait even longer. RCIA is useful, but it wouldn’t hurt to shorten it by half.

 

[PJM]

=Usige;10691580]I agree that there needs to be guild lines of what needs to be covered, but I disagree with having set start and stop times.

To be honest the whole school year approach to RCIA is one of it’s biggest downfalls. Becoming Catholic is about interior conversion, not class time. Some have the interior conversion of the heart without knowing the why. It is purely an acceptance of grace. Others have to hear, learn, and debate the why before they open up enough to accept the grace.

We need to stop looking at RCIA as a class where you graduate and receive the sacraments. God calls us each in our own time. Our job in RCIA should be just about helping with a persons discernment just as much as educating them. Some of the stuff in RCIA could frankly wait until after reception into the Church.

While I Do understand your perspective; having spent most of my life in management and many. many years in teaching there simply is a lack of qualifed “help” to monitor such an approach which would introduce masssive abuses IMO.

Secondly: The sacramnet of Confirmation and what this committment implies is at times not recogonized and comprehended. It creates a personal covenant with our God that says in effect:

I DO KNow

I Do Believe

and I WILL DO ALL that the CC teaches.

Therefore it is serious obligation to prepare candidates as fully as is practical and possible for this sacrament.

God Bless you,
Pat /PJM

 

[cheezey]

Perhaps it would be better to have first some RCIA classes, then be welcomed into the Church formally, and then some more classes after. That way you don’t have to wait AS long, but you still get the necessary education.

at three chapters a class, 52 weeks would not get us through the bible. so that would be incomplete anyway and still we could be members, so…I say get through much, become a member, and continue the classes.
Not to mention, the initial meeting should include a “what do you know” interview.
Some people need to know everything, others, not so much.
One program does not fit all.

 

[cheezey]

Do you think RCIA is too much?

I’m Cathollic and I think RCIA is too much
I’m Catholic and I think RCIA is just fine (or not enough)
I’m not Catholic, but thought about it, but was discouraged by RCIA
I’m not Catholic, and I think the RCIA program is too much
I’m not Catholic, and I think the RCIA program is just fine
I dunno

I am not Catholic, want to be, and the instructor is going about it as if I am not a Christian.
(I am!) **Which is discouraging me. It may be how he was told to teach, for which I cannot fault him, yet, it’s not working fo me. **
I have no other comparison as to how it should be…I only know that something seems amiss.