Is Sacred Music a Way to Find God?

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Try this one for Bernstein?

youtube.com/watch?v=6KUDs8KJc_c

If you want to sing along in Latin, try this one.

youtube.com/watch?v=6TfAyX8l5-g&NR=1
Thank you for the links. I did get the third one to work. I have some selections by Bocelli on my I-Pod. Pavarotti is missed for his musical depth.

I connected to the Spanish and Latin versions, and, yes, I sang along!!! But I was absolutely enthralled with that gorgeous church (cathedral more likely)!!! Awesome!!!****

Sacred music and art (painting, sculpture, architecture) surely can draw the soul to heavenly heights. :angel1:
 
  • “My Lord, I should be sorry if I only entertained them; I wished to make them better.” (George Frederic Handel, after a performance of Messiah)
  • “The aim and final reason of all music should be nothing else but the Glory of God and the refreshment of the spirit.” (Johann Sebastian Bach, 1685 - 1750)
  • “Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend.” (Ludwig van Beethoven)
:harp:
 
Though Beethoven often urged his nephew to go to confession, the secularists often make much of the fact that Beethoven himself rarely attended church on Sunday. And generally they manage not to mention that, as if to make up for this laxity, nine priests officiated at his funeral Mass.
 
“No friend have I. I must live by myself alone; but I know well that God is nearer to me than others in my art, so I will walk fearlessly with Him.” Beethoven

“I thank my God for graciously granting me the opportunity of learning that death is the key which unlocks the door to our true happiness.” Mozart
 
Two questions for atheists:

If there is no God, why is sacred music so uplifting? Why is it the most uplifting music in the world?

Because music is, under one of its aspects, a series of chemical-physical stimuli (or some such thing) ? As such, it’s reducible to body chemistry & electricity in the cortex (or some such thing). So being moved by Handel’s “Messiah” is, under that aspect, identical with what goes on when people are moved by “My Country, 'Tis of Thee”: so God need not be involved.​

If there is no God, what type of music would be most uplifting to atheists other than sacred music? :harp:

You’ll have to ask an atheist that 🙂

 
*## You’ll have to ask an atheist that *

For some obscure reason, they seem to be steering clear of this thread. Is it that atheists are not comfortable talking about what Pascal called the reasons of the heart?
 
“Where there is devotional music, God is always at hand with His gracious presence.” J.S. Bach

This is so true. It is difficult to find sacred music that is truly despicable. If it is, it was written by a devil for the Devil.
 
I have often thought that God wants to speak to the language of our hearts more than to the language of our brains. After I had left the Church for many years, I remember that my first movement back toward God was marked by listening in a darkened room one night to Mozart’s “Ave Verum Corpus.” It was only after getting someone to translate the words that I realized the music was Mozart’s great tribute to the Blessed Sacrament.

Has anybody had a similar experience? How can science explain this kind of movement of the heart played upon by musical instruments?
MOST DEFINITELY!!! I can’t answer the scientific side of it, but I can most assuredly say that music has brought me to higher levels of spirituality and closeness to God more so than almost any other thing on this earth. As a musician and someone who uses my voice to produce music, the entire experience can sometimes become transcendent. For me, music speaks the language of God.

I believe all music that I make is a prayer. I say a prayer before I open my mouth and the notes and words come out as my prayer as well. There have been times when while I was singing, whether sacred classical music or secular classical music, my mind will suddenly shift and I’m in this level in which I feel enraptured, like in ecstasy. I feel so much warmth and love, which I know is from God. Then, when I look out into the audience or down into the congregation from the choir loft, I sometimes see this glow surrounding many of the people and this warm light in the room. I know I probably sound like a TOTAL nut talking about it, but this is what I truly experience and feel. Once I am done singing during those special times, it’s as if I’m in a daze and not quite aware of my surroundings. It’s not until I hear from audience and sometimes even from congregants who seek me out after mass that I realize something occurred because they felt the same ecstasy as well.

When I am the listener and the same thing has occurred with the performer or musician who is rendering the music at mass, I also experience that same kind of ecstasy which the musician(s) (instrumentalist or singer) were used as a conduit between the spiritual and the earthly. It’s the most bizarre, yet amazing experience, and I know that at that moment the musicians I hear have tapped into their spiritual depths, let go of everything earthly and relied solely on the music to create such an inspiring piece of spiritual beauty. That is true art in any form of art, really.

It also doesn’t matter for me what language or lack of language it is in. Although I’ve had to learn languages for my musical training and have an elementary understanding of them, I actually don’t need to know the literal translation to experience what is being sung. If the singer or the instrumentalist understand what they want to convey, it will expose itself naturally. AT least that is what I get.

After a few years of analyzing myself, because I am so emotionally and spiritually connected to music, I think that is the reason why my negative reaction to poorly composed or just aesthetically ugly religious or sacred music is so visceral. I have at times come to the point of running to the bathroom to throw up when I’ve experienced it at mass, although I’ve more recently learned to keep it down and offer it up.
 
I remember a passage from Mozart regarding the nature of genius, which i think must be applied to his music, sacred and secular.

“Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius.”

Mozart must have been a great lover. There is hardly anyone to match his genius.
I totally agree. I love that quote. Even my puppy loves him. She can care less for Shostakovich, but play Mozart, Handel, Chopin and Debussy on the piano and she calms down, lays at my husband’s feet to listen.
 
I’ve also always loved this quote by Ludwig van Beethoven:

“Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life.”
 
I* think that is the reason why my negative reaction to poorly composed or just aesthetically ugly religious or sacred music is so visceral.*

Not sure exactly what your role is musically. Singer, it seems. Do you also direct a choir?

What has been your experience with poorly written music? At our church we hired a Protestant organist who turned out also to be the choir director. I have found many of his musical selections unsingable and uninspired. Most of them are or more recent vintage , in the last thirty years or so. The old classics are rarely heard any more in church. The congregation doesn’t sing with the choir either because the hymns are strange and don’t even “sound” Catholic.

I have never heard Mozart’s “Ave verum Corpus” in a Catholic church!!! Not even on the organ during the distribution of Holy Communion. Is this a scandal?
 
Not sure exactly what your role is musically. Singer, it seems. Do you also direct a choir?
I’m a classical singer (who happens to also be a musician 😉 ) and do secular, religious and sacred music. Music has been a part of my life for as far back as I can remember. I began my music lessons at 4 1/2, and have been involved in church music since I was about 8 singing in the choirs, then cantoring/choir, liturgical minister in college, then after a semester in London and experiencing wonderful music liturgies there and realized that what I was taught as a kid regarding “old” sacred music was pure bunk (basically, snubbing their noses on centuries of this music and that the Church doesn’t do that old stuff anymore), I joined the cathedral choir in my city back home which still did it and never looked back.

After college, I taught music at a Catholic school and directed the children’s voice an handbell choirs for a couple of years, along with continued singing at our cathedral choir and cantoring there. I worked very hard with those kids, got them to learn some two-part harmony, taught them simple Latin chants and had a music club called the Palestrina Scholars. I then married and after some major changes in my life and a couple years concentrating on classical vocal repertoire at the Mozarteum in Salzburg (home of Mozart where I basically immersed myself in his repertoire) and in Italy (both experiences were incredibly life-altering spiritually) I realized that God was directing me towards opera, concert and recital repertoire. I sometimes sing in quartets or as a soloist for special masses at Catholic churches - although it is mostly in high-church Protestant services where I actually get to sing Catholic repertoire - funny enough.

I still substitute cantor for Sunday mass, funerals and weddings, but I no longer direct or teach in school. It was a hard to accept at first because I spent almost all of my life cantoring every weekend and I loved being with the children, but God kept pushing me away from it when I tried to stay in it. As soon as I “surrendered” to Him, so many things opened up for me in the path He wanted me to take, and I love it just as much. It’s still very spiritual for me, and sadly in many ways much more loving than what I or many of my church musician colleagues who are proponents of classical sacred music have to . Perhaps God will direct me back towards what I started out later in life, but right now, I know this is where I’m supposed to be.
 
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think of composers like Bernd Alois Zimmerman? amazon.com/Zimmermann-Canto-Di-Speranza/dp/B00207J0YS

Supposedly a devout Catholic, but his “music” is really chaotic and random. In all honestly, there are some groups classified as “acid rock” that I would rather listen to. Classical/jazz-trained groups like Cream at least followed logical musical structures. I noticed you also mentioned Bernstein earlier. What do you think of his more dissonant and irregular music?
 
Sarabande

Can you field CTA’s question? I’m not familiar with his work. Sounds fairly grim. Apparently his music could not save him from suicide?
 
What has been your experience with poorly written music? At our church we hired a Protestant organist who turned out also to be the choir director. I have found many of his musical selections unsingable and uninspired. Most of them are or more recent vintage , in the last thirty years or so. The old classics are rarely heard any more in church. The congregation doesn’t sing with the choir either because the hymns are strange and don’t even “sound” Catholic.
Well, I grew up in the 80s and 90s. My experience growing up at mass was almost exclusively that saccharine, wannabe folk-like music written in the 70s and 80s. I do like real folk music since my parents used to listen to it a lot when I was kid, but not the stuff they had for mass. Then we had to do a lot of music that sounded like they were more from musicals or pop love tunes. A lot of the melodies were so mundane or just plain cheesy. That’s not to say I didn’t have some mentors in and out of my life who slowly showed me the way. I first give credit to the priest in our parish who was a professional classical singer prior to going into the priesthood. We had him for two years when I was 8 and 9 and he planted the seeds. My first voice teacher, a Jewish woman, was actually the one who introduced me the gorgeous and totally uplifting sacred music repertoire and was the first who taught me how to do some chanting. I remember her saying to me when I was about 16 how tragic it was when the Church threw out centuries of music composed by the greatest masters of music. It got me thinking and asking questions, to which I was just petted on the head, told I was a sweet girl to ask those questions and to think this way, but the Catholic Church doesn’t play that old stuff anymore. Anyone who does is out of the times.

As I grew in depth of my faith and realized how interconnected music, prayer and spirituality was for me, it became very hard for me to stomach the garbage that many parishes were producing for a long while. I do have to say, though, I’ve seen more parishes at least in my diocese doing more traditional stuff and even some choirs trying to do the more simple works of the masters, which I think is great.

You mentioned about your Protestant music director. A couple years back, as a favor to a priest friend of mine, I sang as a soloist for his choir at their newly-built church. The choir was mostly made up of volunteers who loved to sing and they did some good music. One was the Mozart “Laudate Dominum” and they did it well. The music program was run by a Protestant.
I have never heard Mozart’s “Ave verum Corpus” in a Catholic church!!! Not even on the organ during the distribution of Holy Communion. Is this a scandal?
That is so sad for you. The cathedral choir that I was a part of does sing it. They also do the Byrd “Ave Verum Corpus” and the Faure “Ave Verum Corpus” along with Palestrina, chant, Tallis, Brahms, Bach, and other composers spanning from the earliest centuries to the present. There are a couple other parishes in my diocese that have done it as well. And I’ve been asked a few times by various bridal clients to sing it like a hymn for their nuptial masses. So, it is being done.
 
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think of composers like Bernd Alois Zimmerman? amazon.com/Zimmermann-Canto-Di-Speranza/dp/B00207J0YS

Supposedly a devout Catholic, but his “music” is really chaotic and random. In all honestly, there are some groups classified as “acid rock” that I would rather listen to. Classical/jazz-trained groups like Cream at least followed logical musical structures. I noticed you also mentioned Bernstein earlier. What do you think of his more dissonant and irregular music?
Although I’m not familiar with Zimmerman’s works, with the little I have heard and can appreciate what he has done in his compositional work, it’s not enjoyable for me to listen to, but I’m not a fan of most avante-garde classical music from the 20th century - and I definitely wouldn’t think that would be appropriate for inspirational sacred music. The problem for me with the theory that was being tested out during the time was that in the 12-tone scale, they were trying to prove that each tone did not have any special relationships with each other. Modern acoustical science have since proven otherwise, although I think most people’s ears, even without any musical training, can tell you that. 😉

Although I didn’t realize Bernstein was mentioned, I will say that (just in my opinion) he wrote some good compositions and wrote some lousy ones. I personally think he was a genius as a conductor and love the recordings I have of him conducting, and he was very good as a composer (he definitely knew his stuff), but not a genius in composition. I was fortunate enough to be a part of West Side Story in college and immersed myself in his music for that and it was leagues above most compositions written for the musical genre. I do like some movements of his Chichester Psalms, though.

That all said, it’s not that I dislike dissonance. I do like it when it makes sense.

P.S. I do agree with you regarding classically/jazz-trained groups or popular music musicians. Their music tend to be more interesting and enjoyable in their genre. Usually, I don’t find out that they are classically/jazz trained until I listen to them and like them. I have former classmates who are classically trained and have just fallen into doing more popular music, but they are usually first to admit that what they do for their genre is no where near the complexity and beauty as what they first learned to play. BUT they just tend to prefer the popular music more.
 
The problem for me with the theory that was being tested out during the time was that in the 12-tone scale, they were trying to prove that each tone did not have any special relationships with each other. Modern acoustical science have since proven otherwise, although I think most people’s ears, even without any musical training, can tell you that. 😉
I know, I like experimentation in music, but exclusive atonality just isn’t enjoyable to listen to (especially when trying to find God!). The dissonance in music like West Side Story fits the context, and there are plenty of melodic passages to balance it. However, to me, basing entire compositions on completely illogical music theory is like typing random words and expecting them to become a novel. Actually, someone should do that just to see how it sells. 😛
 
I know, I like experimentation in music, but exclusive atonality just isn’t enjoyable to listen to (especially when trying to find God!). The dissonance in music like West Side Story fits the context, and there are plenty of melodic passages to balance it.
Exactly!
However, to me, basing entire compositions on completely illogical music theory is like typing random words and expecting them to become a novel. Actually, someone should do that just to see how it sells. 😛
That would be very interesting to see if it would take. You just need a person who knows how to market it well, a few influential people who can promote it and really believe in it (sort of like the Emperor’s New Clothes?) and you’re set.

I agree with you. Arnold Schoenberg, as much as I respect what he was trying to do, really was working with illogical music theory. He tried to make it happen and failed. It was an interesting experiment and that’s it. I’ve heard some of his earlier works and they were actually quite lovely. He should have stuck with that.

The other problem I have with it is that it made music completely cold and emotion-less. Those are the works I can’t wait for it to end so that I can listen to Brahms Symphony No. 4 or something else at the orchestra. And honestly, I think most people are thinking that as well. It’s just that some don’t want to admit that they see a naked emperor because they don’t want to seem ‘philistine’. 😃 Although I personally don’t see myself as a philistine at least in the arts (I can’t speak for other aspects in life, as I’m sure I probably am regarding different subjects), I’d be proud to call myself one if it meant just being plain honest about a musical composition that is really garbage. Some people think that getting in with the avante garde will make them an individual as well. It doesn’t, obviously. You actually have to truly believe in it, not pretend to or delude yourself into believing it and unfortunately there are those who do that. That makes the music more about the Ego rather than about the spiritual aspects of finding God. Although, I have known a couple who are the real thing and thus have respect for them in that regard.
 
😃
I was delighted to notice this thread today! Of course, with the scholarly commentary, my thoughts pale in comparison. Whatever.
It seems to me, God DELIGHTS in our efforts to reach out and up to Him, and when we do so by using MUSIC, it brings pleasure to His Majesty too. Music is evolving, (you may have to kind of ‘discount’ the current noise though) and good music, i.e., Sacred music, extends from the yearning hearts of mankind to the Heart of God. Augustine said, “You have made us for Yourself, O God, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You.” Our facility to make music (by whatever means) demonstrates our restless searching for the Truth of God. Sacred music touches that part of our selves that searches constantly for God. When I am MOST in touch with God, I am the most-filled with song, and my spirit delights in the connection. The more NOISE that fills my day and mind, the less I can be in touch with God. It’s a very simple connection.
But then, God does NOT complicate things. That’s the devil’s job, and he does it well.
May your spirits sing! And in all things, sing praise. Make a joyful noise unto the Lord!
God loves you.
 
MarjannaS

God does NOT complicate things. That’s the devil’s job, and he does it well.

AMEN!

There seems to be a harmony in sacred music that corresponds to the harmony I would suppose to exist in the mind of God, that same harmony that God blesses us with in our own moments of meditation and connection with Him.

The reason dissonant music does not lift us up … is that because it is really the devil pushing us down? We know the 20th Century was a great century for the devil in many different ways.
 
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