Is Sacred Music a Way to Find God?

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MarjannaS

God does NOT complicate things. That’s the devil’s job, and he does it well.

AMEN!

There seems to be a harmony in sacred music that corresponds to the harmony I would suppose to exist in the mind of God, that same harmony that God blesses us with in our own moments of meditation and connection with Him.

The reason dissonant music does not lift us up … is that because it is really the devil pushing us down? We know the 20th Century was a great century for the devil in many different ways.
Although my musical background is limited, I listen to classical music a lot. What does anybody on this thread have to say about Stravinsky? He used dissonance effectively, if you ask me. I enjoy his “Firebird Suite.” As mentioned by Sarabande (I once played a piece by that title on the piano as a child trying to learn to play the instrument) some dissonance isn’t a bad thing. Complete dissonance as in Shoenberg is chaos, much like acid rock, extreme rock in secular music. :eek: I actually think that not all heavy metal music is hellish, but it certainly doesn’t lift one’s spirit to heavenly verities. Some of it brings the soul to the brink of the existential self where the only rational choice is God–eternal life–or satan–eternal death. It seems that many who listen to the pounding rhythms, grating guitars and hellish vocals actually take on the garb of nihilism in their taste for clothing, and artifacts, although most Gothic styles are just passages into adulthood for early teens.
 
Music by-passes the intellect and goes straight to the heart. People will remember the words of a song more often than the words of a homily.

I was at a Spanish Mass once and the choir was singing, and I couldn’t understand a word they were singing but I felt the anointing of the Holy Spirit. I knew I was in the presence of God!

Pastoral Musician
 
Janet

I was at a Spanish Mass once and the choir was singing, and I couldn’t understand a word they were singing but I felt the anointing of the Holy Spirit. I knew I was in the presence of God!

Yes, many of us who lived near the end of the Latin Mass era had the same experience. God speaks in many languages all at the same time! 🙂
 
pounding rhythms
I don’t know, that seems to be an overused stereotype of rock music. I mean, there’s plenty of baroque music that has more “pounding rhythms” than, say, Herman’s Hermits.

I’m not really sure what to say about Stravinsky’s Firebird Suite. It is interesting, but most of it is not something I would listen to for enjoyment. Oh, and thanks to Google’s current illustration, I discovered today is Stravinsky’s brithday if anyone’s interested. 😉
 
An article on Stravinsky.

cco.caltech.edu/~tan/Stravinsky/

Apparently “Rite of Spring” was composed after he left the Orthodox Church. When he returned to the Church in 1926 he commenced writing sacred works. I’m not that familiar with this work but it would be interesting to hear one. Is any available to hear on the internet?

Here is his “Symphony of Psalms”:

youtube.com/watch?v=y1CgSVkH-MU&feature=related

And here his “Ave Maria.” Not solemn enough for me, but old prejudices die hard.
 
Although my musical background is limited, I listen to classical music a lot. What does anybody on this thread have to say about Stravinsky? He used dissonance effectively, if you ask me. I enjoy his “Firebird Suite.” As mentioned by Sarabande (I once played a piece by that title on the piano as a child trying to learn to play the instrument) some dissonance isn’t a bad thing.
Ha! Ha! Yes, my user name is actually taken from the dance in triple meter. I just always loved the word, so decided to use it when trying to come up with a name. My favorite sarabande is the Handel one with all the variations, although I enjoy other Sarabandes as well. Here is a sarabande that is actually set to baroque dance movement.

youtube.com/watch?v=GuhheFyXiaQ

And here is a reconstruction of a 1706 choreographed dance for the solo female. I know I would have had to be upper class to have enjoyed these kinds of dance lessons so that I could join in on the balls, but when I see these, I would have loved to have lived back then just to be able to experience it (minus the lack of modern medicine and dealing with infant mortality and fear of dying during childbirth. 😛 ) If I had the time, I’d take period dancing lessons because I’m an 18th c. reenactor and we sometimes have outside dances in the evenings by firelight after the battle events and all the “modern” people and things go away. I’d really love to learn a sarabande.

youtube.com/watch?v=nAnzbIOCjwo&feature=related

Anyway, back to your question:

I enjoy Stravinsky’s “Firebird Suite”, although I like it more when I get to see it choreographed with the ballet. I admit I’m not a big Stravinsky or Shostakovitch fan. I like their music, but not to the point where I go out and by recordings. My husband, on the other hand, loves them both. He has a number of cds with recordings of their works. He is actually working on some Shostakovitch’s keyboard works, which are nice, although our puppy could care less for him.
 
An article on Stravinsky.

cco.caltech.edu/~tan/Stravinsky/

Apparently “Rite of Spring” was composed after he left the Orthodox Church. When he returned to the Church in 1926 he commenced writing sacred works. I’m not that familiar with this work but it would be interesting to hear one. Is any available to hear on the internet?
I’m not sure if it was mentioned in the the link you provided, but did you know that the Rite of Spring actually caused a huge riot at its premiere? The way he used dissonance and rhythm were so new to the people and the choreography was such a departure from what people were used to seeing that they literally caused a huge commotion, fights, etc. Police had to brought in, but they were never able to contain the chaos in the theater

I think the beginning of it is beautiful, actually, but that’s me listening to it with 21st century ears. But again, this is something I would rather listen to and also see the choreographed ballet to go with it. I’ve never been able to listen to the entire thing on my husband’s cd. Here is the work using the original choreography:

youtube.com/watch?v=bjX3oAwv_Fs
youtube.com/watch?v=vb8njeKBfqw&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=mK64sTi4mKc&feature=related
 
*I’m not sure if it was mentioned in the the link you provided, but did you know that the Rite of Spring actually caused a huge riot at its premiere? *

I heard about that. Well, he opened with a bang, didn’t he? I sometimes think some artists do outrageous things just to get themselves recognized and talked about. Think of the cubists and abstract artists of 100 years ago. Once they get out of the gate, they can exploit their recognition by doing the same, as Andy Warhol did, or by getting over it and trying something more traditional. For me, the later Stravinsky is more interesting, more mature perhaps, but still a far cry from Mozart, who never even lived to see what might have been his “later” period.

If you checked out the YouTube on Stravinsky’s “Ave Maria,” you might have seen viewer comments that I agreed with. Too fast-paced to be reverent, unless the choir director is to be faulted.
 
I heard about that. Well, he opened with a bang, didn’t he?
Actually, he was apparently quite disturbed and upset by the reception of the audience. I don’t think Stravinsky was the kind of artist who did outrageous things to get attention. The little I know about him, I believe what he wrote came from his heart and as much as his work may not be my favorite, it is still incredible work.
I sometimes think some artists do outrageous things just to get themselves recognized and talked about. Think of the cubists and abstract artists of 100 years ago. Once they get out of the gate, they can exploit their recognition by doing the same, as Andy Warhol did, or by getting over it and trying something more traditional.
I do agree with that for certain artists (musicians, painters, sculptors, etc.) I don’t think much of Ned Rorem at all. To me, I only remember him for his over-the-top exploits and such. He was a good critic, but a composer, no, although he knew how to get people to talk about him. I have an uncle who is an artist and has established his name as a regional artist. He started out doing more traditional work, but then moved on to really abstract work. He’s a little eccentric, but from what my family tells me, he was always a bit eccentric. What he did wasn’t to attract attention, but what he felt was coming from his soul. I don’t necessarily care for his abstract work, but I appreciate what he does and I know that he actually has very good talent because of his prior and current works. Sometimes I really like his use of colors, though, in his abstract work. He does still do abstract art, but has now been in a period of work that is sort of traditional, but his own kind. I don’t know anyone else who does similar work with the kind of medium and color that he uses. So, I also think that sometimes artists do what some people think is outrageous because that’s really what they are. There will always be phonies, but I don’t think most of them are like that.
For me, the later Stravinsky is more interesting, more mature perhaps, but still a far cry from Mozart, who never even lived to see what might have been his “later” period.
Agree… Just listening to some of Mozart’s later works, you could hear where he was going. There is one piece, can’t remember the name, that almost sounds romantic.
If you checked out the YouTube on Stravinsky’s “Ave Maria,” you might have seen viewer comments that I agreed with. Too fast-paced to be reverent, unless the choir director is to be faulted.
I didn’t see the link you provided, but found this version. I thought that was reverent.

youtube.com/watch?v=A7kjqO8b1ik

Sometimes, it all depends on what the conductor envisions the work, as well as the performer. I have heard works that sound totally different when taken at different tempi or when different performers render the work. For instance, some people believe that baroque music should be taken at fast tempi because they believe that is how it would have been heard. But, sometimes, you can’t hear the nuances in the music at the tempi that it is taken. I love hearing some of the Goldberg variations taken at much slower tempi than what it is normally performed.
 
O.K. The version you sent me to is much better than this one. Almost Gregorian!

youtube.com/watch?v=sHwxkhMDg-k&feature=related
Oooo… yeah, that’s pretty bad direction. He didn’t give the piece room to breathe and fill the room. It sounded like it was a race. What a shame.
I love Pavarotti. He had a voice of gleaming gold, kissed by God. Although I don’t like it with the choir. I prefer it straight through as was originally composed by Schubert in the art song form.

Domingo is also one of my favorite tenors - voice of warmth and liquid gold. I met him once backstage at the Met and when he kissed my hand I could barely stand. hahaha! He’s a very giving and generous person as well.

Then there is Fritz Wunderlich - his voice was so clean, pure and fresh, yet full and with depth. It’s so tragic he died so young.

Here he is singing Schubert’s “An die Musik”. It’s one of my favorite lied and the words totally speak to me with what music does to my soul. It’s like a prayer because God speaks to me through music. Of course, not appropriate for mass, but just had to share it because it’s so beautiful. (But I’m a fan of lieder and love singing it as much as opera - sometimes even more so.)

youtube.com/watch?v=D-VqK088TF4&feature=related

An die Musik (To Music)

Oh gracious Art, in how many grey hours,
When life’s fierce orbit ensnared me,
Have you kindled my heart to warm love,
Transfigured me into a better world!

How often has a sigh escaping from your harp,
A sweet, a sacred harmony of yours
Thrown open the heaven of better times,
Oh gracious Art, for that I thank you!
 
This is one of my favorite sacred motets - Tallis’ “Spem in Alium”. It’s a 40-part motet and the work continues to grow and grow with different lines until you are so overwhelmed by it all. It always makes me feel that this is what I could hear if I ever got to Heaven. The first time I heard it, I cried. I would love to hear this live in a church.

youtube.com/watch?v=ybQdoab92tw&feature=related
 
😃
I was delighted to notice this thread today! Of course, with the scholarly commentary, my thoughts pale in comparison. Whatever.
It seems to me, God DELIGHTS in our efforts to reach out and up to Him, and when we do so by using MUSIC, it brings pleasure to His Majesty too. Music is evolving, (you may have to kind of ‘discount’ the current noise though) and good music, i.e., Sacred music, extends from the yearning hearts of mankind to the Heart of God. Augustine said, “You have made us for Yourself, O God, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You.” Our facility to make music (by whatever means) demonstrates our restless searching for the Truth of God. ** Sacred music touches that part of our selves that searches constantly for God. ** When I am MOST in touch with God, I am the most-filled with song, and my spirit delights in the connection. The more NOISE that fills my day and mind, the less I can be in touch with God. It’s a very simple connection.
But then, God does NOT complicate things. That’s the devil’s job, and he does it well.
May your spirits sing! And in all things, sing praise. Make a joyful noise unto the Lord!
God loves you.
This was so beautifully said.
 
Sarabande

Thank you for all those beautiful selections.

It always makes me feel that this is what I could hear if I ever got to Heaven.

Interesting you said that. I was thinking that if I were an astronaut able to glide swiftly through the galaxies this is what I’d want for a soundtrack to punctuate all those visual glories.

The heavens declare the majesty of our God! And so does music!
 
HI Phoage,Tonyrey, budgie2, 4 Horsemen, Mkingdomlve, I welcome you all and hope you have a beautiful stay here and make many new friends May God bless each one of you and give you knowledge and peace. My music I like is Chants, by Western Priory, and Chants DE L’eGLise De ROME ( Byzantine) I also like an album with monks chanting, but I forgot the nme off hand. Music can sooth your body and relax you or even get you prepared for surgery. It can be a great way to communicate with God, and it changes your mood for the better ( Start your daay with a song you never will go wrong) ETC. I have 5 instruments also i play and i enter another world. When I write i again enter into my little corner of the world alone with the Father and the whole God head. I recite Psalms: Sing unto the Lord a new song, sing unto the Lord all the earth, sing unto the Lord bless his name shew forth his salvatin from day to day, declare his glory amoung the heathern his wonders amoung all people, for the Lord is great and greatly to be praised, he is to be frared above all gods for all gods of the nations are idols but the Lord made the heavens, honor and majesty are before him, strength and beauty are in his sanctuary. OH Give unto the Lord all ye saints give until the Lord glory and strength, give unot the Lord glory due unto his name, bringing an offering we come into his courts. OH worship the Lord in the beauty of his holyness fear before him all the earth and declare unto the Heathern that the Lord reigneth and that an earth shall be established and that it shall not be moved. And let the heavens rejoice and let the earth be glad and let the sea roar in the fullness there of, and let the fields and all that is in them be joyful, then shall all the trees in the woods rejoice before the Lord, for he commeth, for he commeth to judge the earth, he shall judge the world with his rightousness, and the poeple with his truth. Psalms 96
 
MarjannaS

God does NOT complicate things. That’s the devil’s job, and he does it well.

AMEN!

There seems to be a harmony in sacred music that corresponds to the harmony I would suppose to exist in the mind of God, that same harmony that God blesses us with in our own moments of meditation and connection with Him.

The reason dissonant music does not lift us up … is that because it is really the devil pushing us down? We know the 20th Century was a great century for the devil in many different ways.
Hi Charlemagne!
If you think the 20th Century was great for the devil, hold onto your hat during the 21st!!! One can hardly hear even thunder because of the noise! And God’s loving whisper is so hard to hear – you really HAVE to be paying attention to it.
I have been a member of the NAPM, and have been a choir member since my early childhood. Singing (with my God-given rich alto voice) gave me pleasure and balance and more fulfillment than anything else. Later I became the organist in my parish, which only recently I had to give up (Father would simply NOT build an elevator for me, and my arthritis made it impossible for me to fly up to the loft anymore.) I felt that God had given me a most wonderful blessing in the music. I offered my poor talents (and they ARE poor) simply because He had given them to me to use. So, I gave Him my use of them as worship, and He in turn, gave me more blessings and joy because of their use! What a wonderful “exchange”! I often wondered if even GOD could understand how much joy and pleasure He gave me in the music, and how much absolute joy it gave me to be able to give it back to Him. I would slip into the dark, quiet church, and simply “play for Him”. What unutterable joy. And even since “retiring”, with my rich alto demoted to a raspy squawk, my heart is STILL full of the joy of raising my inner self in song to my God.
As I get older, I tend to RECOGNIZE the Devil more easily. We have (our society) made him an object of ridicule and laughter, but I know that HE is not laughing. He figures to have the last laugh, and that will be at US. The constant noise, those New Age rock ‘hymns’ that purport to offer worship and somehow miss the theological boat, the absence of the traditional and stirring spiritual hymns which have elevated souls for so long already, – these are his doing.
Somebody commented way back about “Catholic Music” versus “Non-Catholic Hymns”, and I would say there should be no divisions there. IF THE MUSIC raises the heart, mind and consciousness to the Heavenly Father, and IF the theology is correct to our faith, does is really matter if the tune was written by a non-catholic? I have effectively used “In the Garden” as a communion meditation, and at an evening service, closed with “Sweet Hour of Prayer”, which smoothly raised hearts to the Lord. Our Liturgies, our “Work of Worship” must be very carefully planned to direct hearts toward God. Sometimes we tend to want to make of ALL our music a ‘performance’ and forget that it loses something then, because it’s not for the Glory of God, but for the glory of the musician.
I like your comment about the harmony of the mind of God. God is perfect harmony and that may be WHY music even exists. If that harmony is given sound, it becomes music. I feel quite sure that those eternal “CHOIRS OF ANGELS” ain’t just chatting! They have their angel-voices lifted to God in magnificent harmony, giving Him worship and glory.
Again, make a joyful noise unto the Lord. Peace, love and harmony to you.
 
MarjannaS, thanks for your comments on Protestant hymns. “Amazing Grace” is a classic example of music infused by God’s own grace. I believe the composer was once a slave ship captain who entered orders in the Church of England. God’s grace is everywhere.

Here is *Salve Regina *Gregorian style.

What impresses me is how all those old chants were never signed by the authors (at least not that I know of). How’s that for true humility and grace?

Nancy, what five instruments do you play?
 
MarjannaS, thanks for your comments on Protestant hymns. “Amazing Grace” is a classic example of music infused by God’s own grace. I believe the composer was once a slave ship captain who entered orders in the Church of England. God’s grace is everywhere.

Here is *Salve Regina *Gregorian style.

What impresses me is how all those old chants were never signed by the authors (at least not that I know of). How’s that for true humility and grace?

Nancy, what five instruments do you play?
:)HI, I fool around with the key board, harmonica, fiddle, guitar, celtic harp. I also have a Scottish flute. I raise cane when i’m able.😃 I also have a Karaoke and 3 mic’s so i record songs I write. I love music more then food, it is my food. Love of Christ Nancy
 
:)HI, I fool around with the key board, harmonica, fiddle, guitar, celtic harp. I also have a Scottish flute. I raise cane when i’m able.😃 I also have a Karaoke and 3 mic’s so i record songs I write. I love music more then food, it is my food. Love of Christ Nancy
Neat, what sort of songs do you write? I’m sort of an amateur songwriter myself. I’m not really sure if I have a specific genre, but I guess I tend to mush together blues, jazz, and oldies pop structures. I tried writing a classical-ish counterpoint thing for piano once, but it sort of turned into an atonal vent. 😛
 
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