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Picky_Picky
Guest
You don’t think the stories of powerful men dominating numbers of women are because at the time the stories were first told powerful men did dominate numbers of women?
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Padres1969
Guest
From the Episcopal (Anglican POV) I’ll repeat what my church’s Dean actually stated the other day to a group I was in. Anglicans believe that Scripture, Tradition, and Reason form our faith. The so called, three legged stool. But that stool is like a milkmaid’s stool in that yes it has 3 legs, but it has a longer leg, and that longer leg is scripture.
As for the idea of the Trinity itself, I’d say it’s pretty solidly supported by the scriptures based on multiple passages. Now it’s not referred to as the Trinity by name, that was a name given to the nature of God as expressed in the scriptures by the early church, but it’s definitely scriptural.
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ffg
Guest
Thanks Picky, and the same.
Not only does it sound like it is good coming from evil, it certainly walks like it, quacks like it and smells like it!
So first we should come to grips with - If good does come from evil. I’d say we see it everyday!..
People have kids out of wedlock. If sex outside of Marriage is a sin, that’s evil,. If kids are gifts from God, that’s a good. God doesn’t withhold a soul or stop our nature because of our sin (This situation occurred in my family this year, with a great new little niece).
So I would say that yes, good can come out of evil today, and yester-year.
Now the situation is a little different when God and / or His Church approves.
You see our example above doesn’t mean there is not sin, right? …
Not to tell you what to do, but there is a contraception thread in the philosophy section that I was in for a while.
We ran into a similar question - Why would using contraception NOT be an evil act in a dispensation case? (I know of 1, but I’m sure there are others)
The summary is that when the Church gives dispensation, it doesn’t come with strings (get to confession because though we give you an ok, it’s still sin).
The point of a dispensation process would be for those requesting or being granted dispensation to know they are not sinning. (If it was a hard and fast rule, why ask?)
So, different when God makes a request (or His Church approves).
In those cases essentially what I pointed out in the other thread is the ‘dispensation’ from sin.
It would all flow back to that - ‘what you loose, what you hold bound’.
So when looking at exceptions, it is important to understand that the Church may have an ‘exceptional’ answer.
Dispensations would be case to case, similar to God asking a couple to figure out a way to make lineage. (He didn’t go to all couples of a city, it was specific)
Take care,
Mike
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Erikaspirit16
Guest
Of course. But that fact doesn’t have religious meaning. To take a story about what happened in 1000 BC and say “God let David marry his rival’s wife after he killed him, and therefore that justifies my killing my rival and marrying his wife I lust after” is nonsense. It may or may not be historical fact, but it’s not part of the religious message of the Old Testament. I’m not suggesting that’s your position, but I am saying that just because something is mentioned in the Old Testament it doesn’t mean that people (either then or now) should imitate it or think God wants us to follow every little thing that is there.
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Picky_Picky
Guest
No, indeed. Does it not then raise the question of whether such a story conveys any religious meaning at all?
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hasantas
Guest
God create human and God knows the best way of life for human. Light of faith came to Muhammad into a desert but that light will enlighten all times. That is not something dependent on time. For instance there are orders of Islam for “ablution” and those are not related to times. And all new situations for orders of life are being implement according to principles of Qiyas(Qur’an and hadiths).It’s the ‘orders’ part that’s problematical though - while there are principles about how one should live one’s life that might be described as eternal, I doubt that walking around with a sack over your head (probably sensible for desert tribes) and being married off as a child to an old man are really what God would prescribe for modern urban Muslims.
But you restrain the issue because of Muhammad was married with (19) young woman. Young or old but She was a woman.
The way of Muhammad is the best to live both for world and life to come.
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Micosil
Guest
To this, I will say, if one of the three is longer than the other two, in the end the whole stool is unstable and is more likely to topple over.
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Erikaspirit16
Guest
Good question, but no, not to me. It seems to me that you have to look for the “meaning” in any story, whether it’s Biblical or something your friend is telling you. Why is your friend telling you this? Why tell it in this particular way? Why pick this particular time to tell you the story? What response is your friend looking for? What does it tell you about your friend? Etc.
I think the problems start when people start taking all the little details and assuming that they must be not only true, but must be direct messages from God telling you to believe or do something–like killing your friend to marry his wife. This is why I am having difficulties with Islam–most Muslims insist that the little details are the message. This seems nonsensical to me.
And of course Bible stories are not all equal. One is not necessarily just as important as the other. And it seems to me that the meaning of any Biblical story is usually very short and simple. “God doesn’t want you to worship false gods,” or “Obey God.”
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The topic is Sacred tradition; According to this Sura- S. 5:116-117
And when God said, ‘O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, “Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God”?’ He said, ‘To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen I only said to them what Thou didst command me: “Serve God, my Lord and your Lord.” And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when Thou didst take me to Thyself, Thou wast Thyself the watcher over them; Thou Thyself art witness of everything.’
I did not say the Quran “says do not take Maryam and Jesus as lords beside God”. It implies and introduces an oral tradition for the Muslim to mistakenly believe that, God asked Jesus son of Mary, if? Jesus instructed men to take God and his mother as gods apart from God.
Your tradition from the outset of this Sura, implies a false Trinity that never exist with in Catholicism. An unlearned Muslim is mislead here about the True Trinity, when this was written could be misleading, that can carry on an Islamic tradition about a false trinity.
Today, how does Islam or the Quran reject the True Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, when the Quran never instructs or reveals the True Trinity.
Thus Islam’s tradition to teach Muslim to reject the Quran’s revelation of the Trinity, proves Islam is rejecting a false trinity that does not exist.
Can you prove that the Quran reveals the True Christian Trinity consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, to be the Trinity that is rejected from your written Tradition, or Oral tradition?
Or when did Islam begin to reject the True Trinity?
Can you prove what scholars and monks are taken to be “lords besides Allah”? This is also misleading according to your At-Tawbah(9). Because there is never in Church history that places any scholar or monk who are known deities.
Prove where the Quran understands the True Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). The trinity the Quran speaks of is never Christian and I would agree with you the Quran reveals an unknown polytheism or pagan belief that is never Catholic.
peace be with you
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hasantas
Guest
There is no true Trinity! All thoughts in kind of Shirk are false.
God do not elaborate all kinds of wrong thoughts but explain main procedure. And it is not justification to ignore Qur’an because of that it did not explain Trinity of Catechism. Qur’an says it is wrong to associate with God. For instance Pagans did not reject God wholy but they associated their idols with God. You do same! Father act that and Son do so and Spirit in another way:shrug:
Do not take your scholars as gods beside Allah means that do not give authority of divine being(God) to establish faih. But you give your fathers authority to establish Trinity and you assume only true is it and others are wrong or incomplete. You Christians interpret verses in very excessively way which include wtih some wrongs.
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Padres1969
Guest
Ever seen a milkmaids stool?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
I agree the Quran does not reveal the True Trinity for any Muslim to reject. Thus the Quran leaves the True Trinity for all Muslims and non believer’s to seek what is the True Trinity before rejecting something you do not know.
Please do not twist the topic of discussion. We are not discussing the Catechism as being taught by the Quran.
Plain and simple, the Quran never reveals the True Trinity as being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for any Muslim to reject.
I agree with Quran to reject God the Father, God the Son and the Virgin Mary as all being god’s or the Trinity.
But you cannot show me or prove to me that Islam or the Quran, by It’s written or Oral Tradition rejects the True Trinity of the Christianity.
Because God has not revealed the True Trinity in the Quran for Muslims to reject. Muslims are rejecting the Trinity by default or by human misunderstandings, not by the Quran.
I agree. The Trinity of persons do not associate with God. The Trinity of persons is ONE GOD and no other.
How is it that your Quran teaches that the True Trinity are an association of deities. We Catholics agree with the Quran, There are no associates with God. But you can’t prove to me where in the Quran it teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are false associations of god’s?
Show me from your tradition and your Quran where it shows the True Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as being rejected by Allah or the prophet. IF you cannot prove to me from Allah or the prophet, then you reject the True Trinity from a man made rejection or tradition that is never from the Divine or your prophet. Thus your rejection of the True Trinity is never denied by God or your prophet.
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I agree. What you do not understand, is that every Catholic scholar and monk follow Jesus as being the authority of all things, because the Father gives everything to the Son = Jesus. You are mislead into believing that Catholic Scholars have any authority within the Church. Catholic Scholars only repeat and give insight into what God has already divinely revealed. Our Scholars never take it upon themselves to establish faith, because it is never the Catholic scholars position to give faith, less they lose their Scholarly license. You have been tremendously mislead here.
I ask you? are you getting such false things about Catholicism from your Tradition or the Quran or from human things?
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NO; our Fathers only defended and protected what God revealed through the presence of Jesus Christ humanity. For example; Jesus commissioned the Fathers to baptize al nations; "IN the (ONE NAME) Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father’s never established the Trinity, God revealed the Trinity to baptized all nations in order to enter and see and Kingdom of God.
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Kaninchen
Guest
I can assure you that Jewish life is no less taken up with ‘orders’, hasantas, but there are various ways of looking at them even when keeping to them. Is the ‘value’ in the action itself or in the fact that the action constantly reminds you of why you’re doing it. In other words your mind is constantly being drawn to God, who we are and why we’re doing it.
Putting the ‘value’ in the nature of the activity itself rather than in the spiritual purpose of the activity could be considered a kind of idolatry.
Was Aisha married at 19 or was the marriage consummated at 19?
Or not, as the case may be.
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hasantas
Guest
OK. Qur’an does not elaborate about Trinity. But Qur’an say not to associate other deities beside God! So if someone claim for other being to be part of divinity then it conflict with Qur’an. There is no need for deatils of that thought.
Father is God and there is no any other God. If you stand at that point so there is no problem. But if you claim for a human to be God then that conflict with Qur’an indeed not just with Qur’an also it conflict with both OT and NT. Jesus was % 100 human.
And you accept that scholars could not establish faith. That is very good. So you have to prove that God had given scholars authority to establish faith. Be careful! That is not way of God and God convey authority through scriptures but not by uncertain ways. It is not reliable to assert that scholars got authority through oral but not by scripture.
Faith is the most important fact in universe. God had sent thousands of prophets before Church to inform that God is one. And those knowledges are in previous scripture. And after Jesus God had sent Qur’an and nearly one-third of Qur’an state about Tawhid which means God is one and no split in divinity.
Now! In what should we believe? Should we believe in people or scriptures?
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hasantas
Guest
There are hadiths about that. The purpose of believer is more favorable than deeds. Or the reward of deed is belong to intention.I can assure you that Jewish life is no less taken up with ‘orders’, hasantas, but there are various ways of looking at them even when keeping to them. Is the ‘value’ in the action itself or in the fact that the action constantly reminds you of why you’re doing it. In other words your mind is constantly being drawn to God, who we are and why we’re doing it.
Putting the ‘value’ in the nature of the activity itself rather than in the spiritual purpose of the activity could be considered a kind of idolatry.
Was Aisha married at 19 or was the marriage consummated at 19?
Or not, as the case may be.
When a Muslim follow the way of Muhmmad(Sunnah) so Muslim think the religion. And when believer think the religion then he think God established religion through prophet. So through that common action a Muslim could be with God in very times of life.
The action itself is not important but that way remind God. And if you love God so you will to act as God wish. God taught prophet the way God loved.
That is not something with Muhammad. He was just a mediator. Even some Muslims love to follow Muhammad in human deeds. Perhaps that is not the way of religion but they love Muhammad very very much.
Aisha was 19 years old. Before she got married with prophet she was engaged with other man. That demonstrate that she was in proper old to get marry. Ofcourse there are some paradoxical hadiths about that issue. Yes Muslims have some difficulties with hadiths.
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Servant19
Guest
I disagree with this hasantas.
What other human being has been chosen before the creation of the universe to wear the robe of Prophethood?
All Prophets are more than just a human being. Yes, their flesh is the same as us, but spiritually they occupy a different station to you and I
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
The topic please
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Micosil
Guest
Well, yes, but what I am trying to say is, in traditions where Scripture’s “leg” is made much longer than the other two legs, then we have an instability problem. Now, I don’t know how much longer this “leg” is in the Anglican tradition, but in the “Bible-only” churches, we can see it can be problematic.
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benhur
Guest
Hi h,
Ok. I understand that God is and had eternal attributes. The flesh , this world, has a beginning. OK.
Yet we are made in His image, unlike a “bush or a storm” . How is that so? Why could not God then taken on flesh also ? He certainly as God in man , did not loose any attributes of oneness holiness, perfection,power etc etc etc.
Agree that an image is only image as mirror. Yes Jesus as a fleshly man was that of a man. But we also state that He was God at the same time. God is a spirit. So is man. Can you see the common denominator spirit, and how God could be in a man?
Jesus the man was the perfect mirror of God because He was also fully God.
This is both scriptural and tradition. When the tradition was challenged (by Arius), Athanasius came to the rescue, by rightly dividing and proclaiming the Written Word of God on the matter.
Blessings
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