Is Satan Evil to the core?

[ohsnapitslennon]

Is Satan evil to the core? Or is there an ounce of good?

I once heard that everyone and everything to the core is good (by a teacher at my HS) because God created everything, even Satan.

And did God create Satan? Because he also said that, but it doesn’t make sense that something that is all good could create something all evil

Thanks,

Lennon

 

[Usagi]

Nothing that is purely evil can exist in God’s universe.

Evil is not a thing or force that exists, it is a lack of something good. A purely evil thing would not even exist, because existence itself is a good.

So, yes, to the degree that he exists, even Satan has some goodness. And God did make him, because God made everything. But Satan’s will is entirely turned to evil and we know that he will never repent and turn back to his Maker.

Satan is not some sort of anti-God, an equal and opposite force of evil in the universe. He is a wayward creation of God, considerably more powerful than an unaided human but infinitely less powerful than God.

Usagi

 

[bsroufek]

In John 8:44, Jesus says:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

From this testimony of Jesus about Satan, there is no good in him and he is the most evil being as “the father of lies”.

Nonetheless, salvation belongs to the “victor” (over the Devil), so even Satan serves a purpose it seems, but only because God makes it so, not because there is any good in Satan.

 

[HardRockGTR]

From this testimony of Jesus about Satan, there is no good in him and he is the most evil being as “the father of lies”.

Is “the devil” actually referring to Satan, though?

Also, if lying is his native language and there is no good in him, then God did create a perfectly evil being from scratch, who didn’t rebel. Rather, he was taking orders from his instinct.

 

[Dorothy]

Is Satan evil to the core? Or is there an ounce of good?

I once heard that everyone and everything to the core is good (by a teacher at my HS) because God created everything, even Satan.

And did God create Satan? Because he also said that, but it doesn’t make sense that something that is all good could create something all evil

Thanks,

Lennon

The fallen angel that we call Satan was created beautiful by God. However, that beautiful angel freely chose to be rebellious and other angels followed him. He is now called Satan. Prior to his fall he was able to see at a glance what the outcome of his choice would be.

The fallen angels are allowed to tempt us, but they are on a leash. God allows us to be tempted, and grants us the grace to not succumb to the temptation, but to choose to obey God. We have free will to choose.

 

[smichhertz]

Nothing that is purely evil can exist in God’s universe.

Evil is not a thing or force that exists, it is a lack of something good. A purely evil thing would not even exist, because existence itself is a good.

So, yes, to the degree that he exists, even Satan has some goodness. And God did make him, because God made everything. But Satan’s will is entirely turned to evil and we know that he will never repent and turn back to his Maker.

Satan is not some sort of anti-God, an equal and opposite force of evil in the universe. He is a wayward creation of God, considerably more powerful than an unaided human but infinitely less powerful than God.

Usagi

^ This.

 

[Rete]

I don’t think it safe to make assumptions like this. When those angels fell, they were all disfigured to varying degrees, depending upon the circumstances of their fall. They lost the ability to love and have no part in the Good, since that is the Holy Trinity.

Another thing that concerns me is that such a line of discourse would almost justify communication between us and them under some circumstances, which I think is a terribly bad outcome. Even exorcists are instructed to not converse with them other than to demand their name and force them out.

They almost always lie. So if you are looking for something good in them, they can easily exploit that, and mislead you. Think of how trivial it is to trick your dog. We are to the angels sort of what our dogs are to us in terms of intellect, perhaps with an even greater divide.

God obviously loves them, but He also punishes them for the evil they inflict upon creation. He separates them from his goodness, and therefore I think it dangerous to look for good in them. The Good comes from God.

 

[Elizium23]

Aquinas on the Fallen Angels

1. STATE OF THE FALLEN ANGELS

1. The fallen angels did not lose their natural knowledge by their sin; nor did they lose their angelic intellect.

1. The fallen angels are obstinate in evil, unrepentant, inflexibly determined in their sin. This follows from their nature as pure spirits, for the choice of a pure spirit is necessarily final and unchanging.

1. Yet we must say that there is sorrow in the fallen angels, though not the sorrow of repentance. They have sorrow in the affliction of knowing that they cannot attain beatitude; that there are curbs upon their wicked will; that men, despite their efforts, may get to heaven.

1. The fallen angels are engaged in battling against man’s salvation and in torturing lost souls in hell. The fallen angels that beset man on earth, carry with them their own dark and punishing atmosphere, and wherever they are they endure the pains of hell. [Note: For further discussion of angels, see Qq. 106-114.]

 

[HardRockGTR]

Aquinas on the Fallen Angels

A lot of that seems to go against church teaching, namely that fallen angels “torture” residents of hell.

Also, if a pure spirit’s choice is unchanging, then that would mean no angels ever had the possibility of falling. This also means that people in hell could change.

 

[Dorothy]

The angels had the possibility of falling because God was giving them a test. Aquinas taught about that also.
They chose rebellion. (Pride).

 

[Usagi]

I don’t think it safe to make assumptions like this. When those angels fell, they were all disfigured to varying degrees, depending upon the circumstances of their fall. They lost the ability to love and have no part in the Good, since that is the Holy Trinity.

Another thing that concerns me is that such a line of discourse would almost justify communication between us and them under some circumstances, which I think is a terribly bad outcome. Even exorcists are instructed to not converse with them other than to demand their name and force them out.

I hope that nothing I said could be construed as suggesting we should have friendly relations with the fallen angels. I meant only to counteract the unfortunately common misunderstanding of Satan as some kind of equal and opposite “evil god” by pointing out that even he is a creature of God, was made good, and owes the basic goodness of his existence to God.

Usagi

 

[Elizium23]

A lot of that seems to go against church teaching, namely that fallen angels “torture” residents of hell.

Also, if a pure spirit’s choice is unchanging, then that would mean no angels ever had the possibility of falling. This also means that people in hell could change.

And yet much of Aquinas is used as the foundation for modern Church teaching. I doubt that any of this is contrary to the faith or we would hear about it. However, it should be noted that much of angelology and other corners of the faith that Aquinas explored are not de fide parts of the Deposit of Faith, but rather theological speculation, like the postulation of Limbo, which does not contradict Church teaching, but over which there can be legitimate disagreement.

And I have often heard it said that much like God assigns a Guardian Angel to each of us in life, a Fallen Angel is assigned to torture us eternally in Hell. That comes as no surprise to me.

 

[Usagi]

If demons do torment the damned in Hell, I would think it would be a matter of “inmates running the asylum,” rather than God specifically ordering such a thing to happen. Since there is no love in Hell, if the inhabitants can interact, it seems reasonable that the stronger would bully and dominate the weaker.

Of course, it’s just as likely that each spirit or soul is effectively alone in Hell, with no interaction even if the population is large. That would mean no one tormenting each other, just each suffering its private deprivation.

When it comes to the angels’ choice to serve or fall, we don’t know exactly how they experience existence or whether they have a form of time that they live through, so picturing the circumstances is difficult and we wind up using anthropomorphized pictures of the future demons living for awhile in Heaven and then making war on their loyal brethren. That is unlikely to be the ttruth of the matter, though, since as far as we know a soul or spirit experiencing the Beatific Vision never desires to leave it. I believe Aquinas’ supposition was that the choice was given at the instant of each angel’s creation and they were then either admitted to or excluded from God’s presence permanently. Unlike us, angels are so constituted that they don’t change their minds over time, so there is no possibility of a second Fall nor of repentance for the demons.

Usagi

Usagi

 

[PJM]

=ohsnapitslennon;11366436]Is Satan evil to the core? Or is there an ounce of good?

I once heard that everyone and everything to the core is good (by a teacher at my HS) because God created everything, even Satan.

And did God create Satan? Because he also said that, but it doesn’t make sense that something that is all good could create something all evil

Thanks,

Lennon

God is “ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED” [and only Good]

PART of that goodness is granting HIS CREATIONS [both spiritual entities and man] a freewill; so that THEY [not GOD] Could choose Good or evil.

WHY DID GOD DO THIS?

2 Timothy 3:17 “That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work”.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”.

BECAUSE GOD IS PERFECT; GOD DESIRES PERFECT LOVE BE FREELY GIVEN BACK TO HIM FOR THE PERFECT LOVE HER HAS GIVEN TO US. ONLY LOVE FREELY GIVEN CAN BE "PERFECT."

God Created Satan [and man] as “GOOD”; but both CAN and satan DID and mand DOES choose evil over good as their PERSOANL CHOICE in opposition to God’s Devine and Perfect Will.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[HardRockGTR]

And yet much of Aquinas is used as the foundation for modern Church teaching. I doubt that any of this is contrary to the faith or we would hear about it. However, it should be noted that much of angelology and other corners of the faith that Aquinas explored are not de fide parts of the Deposit of Faith, but rather theological speculation, like the postulation of Limbo, which does not contradict Church teaching, but over which there can be legitimate disagreement.

And I have often heard it said that much like God assigns a Guardian Angel to each of us in life, a Fallen Angel is assigned to torture us eternally in Hell. That comes as no surprise to me.

Ah, I see.

Although, the fallen angel could just rebel against God and not torture the inhabitant of hell as he is told Of course, this isn’t that relevant, granted.

 

[mikekle]

God obviously loves them, but He also punishes them for the evil they inflict upon creation. He separates them from his goodness, and therefore I think it dangerous to look for good in them. The Good comes from God.

I dont quite see Satan and the other fallen angels as being punished in anyway currently, or the past 2000 yrs. They apparently feel comfy in hell, as they seem to embrace the fire and are able to come and go between there and our plane of existence, so does not seem like punishment to me, and even in the end, when they are chained up in hell, if this is their home, I dont see even that as being awful for them.

If God truly wanted to punish them, why did he not create a more ‘hellish’ place for them? If they like the fire and other things in hell, then that is not a punishment for them, and surely God knows this, but still God created Hell, specifically for Satan and the fallen, seems more like someone building their sworn enemy a new comfy house.

 

[HardRockGTR]

IIf God truly wanted to punish them, why did he not create a more ‘hellish’ place for them? If they like the fire and other things in hell, then that is not a punishment for them, and surely God knows this, but still God created Hell, specifically for Satan and the fallen, seems more like someone building their sworn enemy a new comfy house.

My impression is that God doesn’t punish sinners, nor does he create a place that is ostensibly cruel, being a perfectly ‘good’ entity. Rather, it would seem to make more sense that we all see the beatific vision. However, the holy will wallow in it, while the wicked will dislike it.

Despite this theory (which resembles the afterlife of the Baha’i Faith, although in BF you may reach out for God even after death), I also enjoy C.S. Lewis’ idea of hell in which hell is locked from the indoors. Therefore, all the inhabitants of hell may leave as they please; they’re just comfortable where they are, like you’re theorizing.

 

[Elizium23]

My impression is that God doesn’t punish sinners, nor does he create a place that is ostensibly cruel, being a perfectly ‘good’ entity. Rather, it would seem to make more sense that we all see the beatific vision. However, the holy will wallow in it, while the wicked will dislike it.

This is more or less the Orthodox conception of Hell.

 

[HardRockGTR]

This is more or less the Orthodox conception of Hell.

Interesting. I did not know that. I’m not all that familiar with Orthodox Christianity.

 

[PJM]

=Elizium23;11371986]This is more or less the Orthodox conception of Hell.

A POINT to consider:

How does man emulate God as we know from Gen. 1:26-27

John 4:24 “God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth”.

Psalms 43:25 “For our soul is humbled down to the dust: our belly cleaveth to the earth”
1Cor.15: 47-49 "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven."

Our bodies re corruptable an return to DUST. Wha remains is mans mind, intellect, freewill which are ALL permnatey attached to our Emortal Souls. [Which is HOW man emulates our Spirital God]

“Spirit” cannot suffer physically; but because of the retianed GIFTS can and WILL suffer mentally, and spiritually is Hell for ever KNOWING the loss of the Batific Vision [which they gain a glimse of in the First Judgement. The Souls in Purgatory BOTH suffer this temporary loss of being in God’s presence; while at the same time eagerally seking and knowing FULLWELL that their time in Purgatory is temporary.

Matt.5: 48 [COLOR=“red”]“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

God Bless you,
Patrick