Is simple better?

[LutheranScholar]

I think this thread shows for many Protestant denominations theology is not simple at all. The Concord Book for Lutherans is quite large and huge , LOL!~ Makes one wonder where Sola Scriptura fits into the picture when you have Luther’s small and large Catechisms, and the Concord book.

It’s just about as heavy ( and as big) as the Lutheran Study Bible. When I read in bed, I tend to lean back and hold the book upright on my chest and I’ll tell you… the pages fill my field of vision completely. It’s heavy, the contents have to be read more than once to get a full appreciation of their flavor ( it’s physically heavy too, obviously… it’s hardback and has 826 pages in it) and fortunately for me, the editors of Concordia have chosen to include a lot of controversies and disputes that were later settled. The Antinomian Controversy, the Augsburg Interim, a lot of historical examples like these are explored in Concordia, the Book of Lutheran Confessions. Reading passages from it has become a part of my daily devotion… right after the Rosary, which is right after my Bible reading, which directly follows Martin Luther’s morning prayer.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Is Protestant soteriology really simple?

If we compare all the treatises on it by Lutheran, Evangelical, Reformed parties and that each seems to accuse the other of not fully keeping Sola Fide as well as they do, it seems a lot more complicated than it can appear to be on the surface.

Rarely does it simply begin in end with “all you need is faith in Jesus.” Explanations quickly follow that this does not deny the importance of works. Then two parties differ as to the place of salvation in Salvation (Lutheran insistence on them being necessary for the Christian life and Evangelical rejection of them completely).

I must confess that I find the literature on soteriology within Protestantism quite complicated, especially when different people try to expand on Paul. I think Protestantism is no more simpler than any other theological system.

 

[MaryT777]

It’s just about as heavy ( and as big) as the Lutheran Study Bible. When I read in bed, I tend to lean back and hold the book upright on my chest and I’ll tell you… the pages fill my field of vision completely. It’s heavy, the contents have to be read more than once to get a full appreciation of their flavor ( it’s physically heavy too, obviously… it’s hardback and has 826 pages in it) and fortunately for me, the editors of Concordia have chosen to include a lot of controversies and disputes that were later settled. The Antinomian Controversy, the Augsburg Interim, a lot of historical examples like these are explored in Concordia, the Book of Lutheran Confessions. Reading passages from it has become a part of my daily devotion… right after the Rosary, which is right after my Bible reading, which directly follows Martin Luther’s morning prayer.

Lutheran Scholar:
You are obviously well steeped into Lutheran theology but it does just beg the obvious question about simplicity.

If Sola Scriptura is part of what you confess then why is this heavy and huge LOL Concord book needed as well? Why not the Bible Alone and instead of reading the Concord book, you would be reading the Bible alone?

Instead of Martin Luther’s morning prayer why not read something such as a Psalm from the Bible alone?

Mary.

 

[Vico]

Protestant teaching generally holds that you need do only one thing to be saved, that is to have faith that Jesus died for your sins and that is it, the job is done. Some take this further than others for sure, but that is the gist of it, and indeed is it’s unique selling point.

Catholic teaching (and Orthodox as I understand it) requires much more of the believer. In comparison to the simplicity of protestant ‘believe and be saved’ does Catholicism come across as woefully complicated and far too difficult?

Simplicity:

Matthew 25:31-46

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.
32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand:

Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee?
39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?
40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.
43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee?
45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.​

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Lutheran Scholar:
You are obviously well steeped into Lutheran theology but it does just beg the obvious question about simplicity.

If Sola Scriptura is part of what you confess then why is this heavy and huge LOL Concord book needed as well? Why not the Bible Alone and instead of reading the Concord book, you would be reading the Bible alone?

Instead of Martin Luther’s morning prayer why not read something such as a Psalm from the Bible alone?

Mary.

Excellent point, Mary.

When I went to talk to a LCMS pastor years ago about taking communion there - at the end of the meeting he hands me Luther’s Catechsim lol. Seemed very Catholicesqe to me, and we are accused of being too complicated. So go figure…

 

[Reuben_J]

Judaism is even simpler. You are not damned to begin with so there is no need to be saved.

Interesting. Sounds nice. Why don’t we ever think of it.

 

[ajcstr]

So help me then, where in the catechism does it explain that the mountain being moved is not literal but spiritual?

I did not say that so I can’t help you.

 

[ajcstr]

The Protestant version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be the Divinely inspired Holy Bible. You can pick it up at any bookstore. Comparing them would be a good idea.

NO protestant reads the Bible except through the lens of his own Protestant tradition (except maybe Charles Taze Russell). If you don’t realize that then there is nothing more to say.

And another thing that really pisses me off. Christianity is under attack, big time, and we are here squabbling with each other about justification, sanctification, and every other thing you can think of when we should be uniting to save our faith. We should all be ashamed of ourselves.

 

[Reuben_J]

So help me then, where in the catechism does it explain that the mountain being moved is not literal but spiritual?

I don’t recall seeing that in the Catechism though it could be somewhere between the lines.

Anyway, it can be both literal and spiritual. We had a saint that moved a mountain.

 

[Hatikvah]

And another thing that really pisses me off. Christianity is under attack, big time, and we are here squabbling with each other about justification, sanctification, and every other thing you can think of when we should be uniting to save our faith. We should all be ashamed of ourselves.

We already are one faith in Jesus Christ. The issue is when everyone wants everyone else to convert to their tradition or denomination.

We should all come home to the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Lutheran Scholar:
You are obviously well steeped into Lutheran theology but it does just beg the obvious question about simplicity.

If Sola Scriptura is part of what you confess then why is this heavy and huge LOL Concord book needed as well? Why not the Bible Alone and instead of reading the Concord book, you would be reading the Bible alone?

Instead of Martin Luther’s morning prayer why not read something such as a Psalm from the Bible alone?

Mary.

Well, Mary, there has to be a historical context in everything, right? Tradition might play a subordinate role to Scriptures, but it does play a role. Bible alone, without any context added, can lead one to all sorts of harmful and incorrect interpretations. Just reading the Bible by itself and one could ( completely Biblically!) follow the teachings of Arius, Pelagius or Nestorius and be totally faithful to the word contained in Scripture or even worse, you could make up your own theology and try to win over followers to your point of view, potentially losing millions of souls to traditional Christianity.

All Sola Scriptura means is that we claim to root all our traditions in Scripture, or Scripturally based practices, hallowed by tradition. I know that there are Presbyterians who do read their psalms, but they have their own catechism to serve as a sort of guide.

 

[Usige]

Protestant teaching generally holds that you need do only one thing to be saved, that is to have faith that Jesus died for your sins and that is it, the job is done. Some take this further than others for sure, but that is the gist of it, and indeed is it’s unique selling point.

Catholic teaching (and Orthodox as I understand it) requires much more of the believer. In comparison to the simplicity of protestant ‘believe and be saved’ does Catholicism come across as woefully complicated and far too difficult?

I was raised Presbyterian and am an adult convert to Catholicism; just as a point of reference.

I would not say that protestantism is simpler, but rather that Catholicism has a greater depth. What I mean by that is I often felt like every answer I had as a Presbyterian came down to “love Jesus and everything else will work itself out”. The thing is that it didn’t. I found the church couldn’t provide me any answers or true guidance. I often felt like we were a bunch of individuals floating on rafts. Sometimes we were lashed together, but often broke up. When a storm came through? Maybe you were lucky enough to have others near by, but without compass, astrolabe, or any other tools we could never say we were heading towards Christ.

For me all the “rules” are my compass and astrolabe. In the Catholic Church I no longer feel like I am an individual cast adrift to find my way to God, but rather am on a flotilla of mighty ships with a steady pilot in the Pope and worthy captains in the bishops. The deep draft of the barque of Peter knocks aside shoals of sin that as a Presbyterian I would get hung up on and left to flounder off on my own. When I have questions I have the catechism plus 2000 years of writings to answer those questions. I don’t feel like I am just left to figure it out.

So simpler? I guess so, but also less assurance of Heaven from my own personal experience. For me I’d rather have a guidebook that tell me where pitfalls are rather than set across the wilderness and just figure it out.

 

[ajcstr]

The Protestant version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be the Divinely inspired Holy Bible. You can pick it up at any bookstore. Comparing them would be a good idea.

So, from the Bible (not looking for answers - just making a point),

Is Jesus really present in the bread and wine or is this symbolic?

Should infants be baptized?

Is sprinkling ok for baptism or is it immersion only?

Do works have any role in salvation?

Will Christ reign for a literal 1,000 years?

Will only 144,000 be in heaven?

Will Christ rapture his church prior to the Tribulation?

Is the Church visible or is it an invisible body?

Can a person reject Gods grace?

Is a person’s eternal state predestined from birth?

I could go on and on and on. FROM THE BIBLE, put 100 christians in a room and how much agreement would there be? BUT, from how you answer those questions I would pretty much be able to tell what “tradition” you belong to.

 

[MaryT777]

Well, Mary, there has to be a historical context in everything, right? Tradition might play a subordinate role to Scriptures, but it does play a role. Bible alone, without any context added, can lead one to all sorts of harmful and incorrect interpretations. Just reading the Bible by itself and one could ( completely Biblically!) follow the teachings of Arius, Pelagius or Nestorius and be totally faithful to the word contained in Scripture or even worse, you could make up your own theology and try to win over followers to your point of view, potentially losing millions of souls to traditional Christianity.

All Sola Scriptura means is that we claim to root all our traditions in Scripture, or Scripturally based practices, hallowed by tradition. I know that there are Presbyterians who do read their psalms, but they have their own catechism to serve as a sort of guide.

Yes, I can certainly understand an affinity for Tradition. Tradition!~ You actually make an argument for Catholics as why Sola Scriptura does not work. Alone with a Bible alone you might be like the poor Ethiopian.

Acts 8/NIV online

30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32*This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
****and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
***so he did not open his mouth.
33
In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
****Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”
34The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

This begs the ? as to who has the authority to interpret scriptures. The Lutheran Church does not claim that authority does it? To be an infallible interpreter of Scripture. Just like the Catholic Church there have been issues in interpreting in the LCMS.

I think of the Seminex walkout, the Benke dispute and others all over interpreting scripture and how to do it, or how to interpret scriptures that lead to syncretism or unionism such as 911.

I don’t even see such words as syncretism and unionism in the Bible. But that’s another story.

Mary**

 

[ajcstr]

All Sola Scriptura means is that we claim to root all our traditions in Scripture, or Scripturally based practices, hallowed by tradition.

See, that word “tradition” keeps coming up. WHOSE tradition do you speak of? That’s the key question and that’s how you will interpret the Bible. THAT will be your authority. I don’t see any way around it, again, unless your name is Charles Taze Russell.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

We already are one faith in Jesus Christ. The issue is when everyone wants everyone else to convert to their tradition or denomination.

We should all come home to the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.

I disagree.

We should all come together under the “Chinese full gospel, fellowship international”.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The Protestant version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be the Divinely inspired Holy Bible. You can pick it up at any bookstore. Comparing them would be a good idea.

If only books actually started interpreting themselves…or if God just dropped textbook style bibles from the sky. There would be no need for our Catechsim

 

[ajcstr]

The Protestant version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be the Divinely inspired Holy Bible. You can pick it up at any bookstore. Comparing them would be a good idea.

And I tell you - I am ALWAYS seeking the truth. If you find ANYTHING in that Catechism that directly contradicts scripture or is not derived from scripture in some way, please present it.

I’m sure you will find interpretations of scripture you don’t agree with but I would say you could also walk into any protestant church down the road from you and find interpretations you do not agree with.

 

[Michael68]

The Protestant version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be the Divinely inspired Holy Bible. You can pick it up at any bookstore. Comparing them would be a good idea.

You do know that your Divinely inspired Holy Bible is a Catholic book right?

 

[ajcstr]

You do know that your Divinely inspired Holy Bible is a Catholic book right?

I believe its more PC to use the phrase “picking fruit from a tree one did not plant”