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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Well, those things need to be reported to a bishop or up the ladder higher.
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DavidJoseph
Guest
Most definitely. But we all know how some bishops are about dealing with abuses.
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Anima_Christi
Guest
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but somewhere I got the idea that only the SSPX bishops are in schism, but not the people who attend their Masses. I don’t know whether or not their priests are considered to be in schism. Most of their sacraments are valid–baptisms, confirmations, holy orders, the Eucharist, extreme unction–but their confessions aren’t. The reason for this is that the priest’s power to absolve sins is not inherent in his ordination–permission is given by the diocesan bishop (this is why one priest cannot hear confessions in another diocese). Since the SSPX is in schism, they don’t have permission from any bishop to hear confessions. Of course, in an emergency situation any priest can hear confessions and give a valid absolution, even if he’s excommunicated. The SSPX reasons that the current situation in the Church is an emergency and hence their absolutions are valid. I have no idea if their weddings are valid.
Now, I see no problem with attending a Mass at an SSPX chapel if it is out of love for the Latin Mass (if there is no authorized Traditional Latin Mass) or out of curiosity. It would probably be wise to refrain from receiving the sacraments from the SSPX though (it might actually be sinful to receive from them).
That said, I must say if I was stuck out in the middle of nowhere and the choice was between THIS parish stjoan.com/
and an SSPX chapel, I’d choose the SSPX hands down!
In that case I would consider it an “emergency situation”!
By the way, I bet that many of the same people who condemn someone attending SSPX Masses out of curiosity or love of the TLM would also have no problem with someone who attends schismatic Eastern Orthodox liturgies or Protestant services for the same reasons.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Anima Christi:
obligation whatsoever to attend a schismatic chapel to fufill your obligation. If you’ve fufilled your obligation and you just want to go and see what it’s all about, I suppose that’s ok (that’s what I did, but I made my Sunday obligation at the Saturday vigil Mass AND I asked my confessor if I could go), but I don’t reccomend it.
You wouldn’t be out in the middle of nowhere, you’d be in Minneapolis, where there are lots of churches. Also, as awful (and it truly is awful) as that parish is, it is still officially in communion with the Archbishop of Minn.-Saint Paul, who in turn is still in communion with the Holy See. The SSPX isn’t and thus no argument can stand on which Mass is valid AND licit, supposing the priest at Saint Joan’s intends to confect the sacrament, and uses the correct form and the correct matter. If this parish was “out in the middle of nowhere,” and the priest notoriously refused to confect the Sacrifice using the correct intention, form, and matter, AND any attempt to travel to another parish would impose an undue hardship, then your obligation to attend Mass is set aside. You still have NO excuse nor
obligation whatsoever to attend a schismatic chapel to fufill your obligation. If you’ve fufilled your obligation and you just want to go and see what it’s all about, I suppose that’s ok (that’s what I did, but I made my Sunday obligation at the Saturday vigil Mass AND I asked my confessor if I could go), but I don’t reccomend it.
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bear06
Guest
No, they also need faculties from the local bishop.
The Vatican says that there being no other Tridentine isn’t a valid reason.
I’m afraid I’ve thought long and hard over this improbable and I’ve come to the conclusion that I would go to St. Joan’s (if it was valid) over the SSPX Mass because I would be repulsed by the St. Joan’s type of illicitness and I would be attracted by the SSPX type of illicitness. The last thing I need is to be attracted to something that is illicit. I’d just suffer with Our Lord at the St. Joan’s type of Mass. Thankfully, this will probably never be an issue here.
Uh, yes I would.
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findinghumility
Guest
It is such a joke to hear people argue that attending a SSPX or other independent Traditional Roman Catholic Mass is illicit on the grounds that these groups do not submit to the Holy Father. I could sit in just about any Novus Ordo Mass with a copy of Redemptionis Sacramentum and check of item after item where the Priest is NOT following the directions of the Holy Father. Maybe if the SSPX 'ers would include a few Clowns and liturgical dancers we could all get back together…LOL…
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paramedicgirl
Guest
I know what you mean. SSPX is all about tradition and holiness, and it is very attractive to many people, because of all the liturgical abuses in the NO Mass. Personally, as soon as the excommunication is lifted, I would attend their Mass if we had one in our community.
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Marilena
Guest
Thank you for all your replies. I appreciate it. Thank you for your help.
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JOHNYJ
Guest
Why,in the name of heaven why would any Catholic deservng of the name. Want to associate with people under sentence of Exommunication ?
Need another reason,some SSPX people are starting to adhere to the idea that Pius XII was the last legitimate Pope.
Need another reason,some SSPX people are starting to adhere to the idea that Pius XII was the last legitimate Pope.
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Anima_Christi
Guest
Thank God for me, there is a traditional Latin Mass celebrated by a Franciscan priest of the FSSP, with permission of the bishop, every day and just a two or three minute drive from my college dorm (almost within walking distance even)!! And when I’m at home, it’s about a 25 or 30 minute drive away. I am so blessed!
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bear06
Guest
Let’s see, how does the phrase go? Oh yeah. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
You seem to be under the impression that those who don’t like SSPX love clown masses. In my diocese, I fight both sides of the disobedient coin.
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Iohannes
Guest
There seems to be a double standard going around here. No one is critizing the pope for inviting Communist Catholic Patriotic Bishops to the synod when they are clearly in schism. All of their bishops are consecrated without a mandate at least before Benedict became pope. They all support the brutal one child policy and abortion and communism while the true underground Catholic Church suffers.
Rather than worry about couple of Catholics attending an SSPX Mass why don’t you guys fix your own problems and your own liturgical abuse. Cardinal Mahoney has been devasting his own diocese by shifting gay pervert priest around and allow them to pray on teenagers and you guys worry about some SSPX Mass. At least the SSPX know how to handle sex abuse cases correctly, that is to throw them out, not sufffle them around.
Why should I fight the SSPX when my own diocese is trying to get rid of the indult Mass and basically get rid “legit” Traditionalist. Under the previous bishops things were great, they left us alone, we left them alone, now it looks like the new bishop wants to end the indult for good.
If you guys have not noticed, there are major problems. The Church in America is suppose to conquer America’s soul, but it looks like the reverse has happened in America.
What has basically come down to.
SSPX bad catholics.
Russian Orthodox who spit on Catholics in Russia are treated nicely.
Schismatic Communist Bishops of Red China are treated as equals and are invited to the synod.
Anglican “bishops” get a good treatment from previous pope, even though they have not returned the stolen property they possess and have not apologized for the atrocities commited against Catholics especially the Irish.
Rather than worry about couple of Catholics attending an SSPX Mass why don’t you guys fix your own problems and your own liturgical abuse. Cardinal Mahoney has been devasting his own diocese by shifting gay pervert priest around and allow them to pray on teenagers and you guys worry about some SSPX Mass. At least the SSPX know how to handle sex abuse cases correctly, that is to throw them out, not sufffle them around.
Why should I fight the SSPX when my own diocese is trying to get rid of the indult Mass and basically get rid “legit” Traditionalist. Under the previous bishops things were great, they left us alone, we left them alone, now it looks like the new bishop wants to end the indult for good.
If you guys have not noticed, there are major problems. The Church in America is suppose to conquer America’s soul, but it looks like the reverse has happened in America.
What has basically come down to.
SSPX bad catholics.
Russian Orthodox who spit on Catholics in Russia are treated nicely.
Schismatic Communist Bishops of Red China are treated as equals and are invited to the synod.
Anglican “bishops” get a good treatment from previous pope, even though they have not returned the stolen property they possess and have not apologized for the atrocities commited against Catholics especially the Irish.
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Iohannes
Guest
Why,in the name(Pope Benedict XVI) of heaven why would any Catholic deservng of the name. Want to associate(or invite to the Eucharistic synod) with people under Communism(Chinese Patriotic Bishops) and in schism ?
Need another reason, some Novus Ordo people are starting to adhere to the idea that women can become priests.
If you are going to attack the SSPX at least attack their stances, not the people in the pews.
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cainem
Guest
oh that old chestnut of clown masses and liturgical dancers, in this country there is no such thing, and i dare say in your country it is a rarity, and if it is the norm don’t run off to the sspx stand firm and fight it, i’m also fed up with those who claim there is no reverance at the vernecular mass, there is always reverence in the catholic mass regardless what language it is spoken in, going to the sspx on sunday to me is just the same as going to any other church out of communion with rome, nice but not the real thing
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twiztedseraph
Guest
Ahem Well, I asked a friend of mine who was studying for the Capuchin Priesthood and he told me that while it isn’t a sin (well mortal anyway) its not alltogether good to go. Why? Because by going its as if your saying they are credible which they aren’t. Even if (and thats a big if) they had some good points, they still thrust themselves off the Rock of Peter…So either find a nice orthodox Novus mass or Find a nice traditional latin mass thats in communion with rome…
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paramedicgirl
Guest
In the case of the OP, obviously because she is unaware of their schismatic situation and came here seeking advice after hearing a few concerns about them.
It’s very easy to be attracted to this Mass, and there are actually people outside of CAF who are not aware of the depth of the situation of SSPX. I know, because I used to think they were just very traditional and opposed to modernism. Until I started reading the posts here at CAF. So don’t be so hard on people who just don’t know!
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Anima_Christi
Guest
Well said!
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
First of all, it’s clear that you have no idea of what is going on in China. In China, there are two churches, a schismatic patriotic association and the underground church. Most of the bishops who are involved with the patriotic association have already sworn loyalty to the pope (and thus are part of the underground church as well as the patriotic association), so it is treated as such. How do you know what goes on between the Vatican and those bishops?
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bear06
Guest
Have you noticed the thread title? Of course this is going to be the focus of this thread. If you’d like to start another thread on the church in China, I’m sure they’ll be people there taking them on too. You should be fighting disobedience on all fronts, not just the ones that displease you. The SSPX is not the answer to modernism. They’re just the other side of the coin.
Please stop with the straw arguments that those who don’t support the SSPX and fight against them are all for the schismatic Church of China. If you haven’t noticed, the Pope invites many schismatic churches to visit the Vatican including the SSPX.
So what have you done to fight Cardinal Mahoney?
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Sean_O_L
Guest
bear06 wrote:
Furthermore, it is within the “job-description” of a pope to endeavour to re-unite ALL who are not in communion with Holy Mother Church.
Instead of having a little-boy attitude of “Give me my footy - I’m not playing with you” attitude, Iohannes ought to let the pope “pope”, and pray for the pope’s intentions.
DavidJoseph’s message #3 is spot-on:
The fact that they DO (the fact of an action) celebrate Mass is entirely different to whether they CAN (the ability to) do so.
Straw AND emotionalist arguments!
Furthermore, it is within the “job-description” of a pope to endeavour to re-unite ALL who are not in communion with Holy Mother Church.
Instead of having a little-boy attitude of “Give me my footy - I’m not playing with you” attitude, Iohannes ought to let the pope “pope”, and pray for the pope’s intentions.
DavidJoseph’s message #3 is spot-on:
SSPX priests HAVE been “suspended a divinis” (that is, prohibited from all priestly functions) since 1976 AS WELL as being excommunicated for the very grave sin of schism when they have adhered to Lefebvre & Co.'s 1988 schism.
The fact that they DO (the fact of an action) celebrate Mass is entirely different to whether they CAN (the ability to) do so.
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