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bear06
Guest
LOL! I’ve never heard it said quite that way. Here in God’s country we say “I’ll just take my toys and go home!”
However it’s said, it’s a useless attitude that does nothing for the Church.
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However it’s said, it’s a useless attitude that does nothing for the Church.
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Iohannes
Guest
Attendance at an SSPX is not ok.
Attendance at a protestant worship is ok apparent to a bishop*.
cbs4denver.com/local/local_story_294074939.html
THere you have it!!!
*to be fair he has not mentioned or say anything about the sspx to my knowledge.
Attendance at a protestant worship is ok apparent to a bishop*.
cbs4denver.com/local/local_story_294074939.html
THere you have it!!!
*to be fair he has not mentioned or say anything about the sspx to my knowledge.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Perhaps it has to to with what is obvious: Protestant services, though schismatic, are OBVIOUSLY protestant and thus cannot be confused with Catholic worship. The SSPX, however, are far more insidious in that their schism (and possible heresy) has the appearance of historical Catholicism (different from “traditional,” which is still in obedience to the Holy See, the arbitrator of tradition). Thus, they are a greater scandal. Also, they might be termed as “formal” schismatics (thus accountable for their sin of schism) as opposed to the “material” schism of Protestant sects (for which they cannot be charged with sin, according to the Catechism).
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palmas85
Guest
My understanding of this situation is somewhat limited, but as I understand it it is OK to attend the SSPX Mass, IF and only IF you do not adhere to their I guess, philosophy, for lack of a better word. I have also heard that it is reccomended that people NOT attend them regularly as by doing so you may be drawn into their belief system.
Now I could be all wrong on that, but those seem to be the guiding principles.
That being said, and understand I am a hard core traditionalist, Rad Trad as it were, and I would never attend a SSPX Mass. I have had the opportunity to attend, on a daily basis I might add and did not. If there is an Indult I will attend that for Sunday and Holy days, and Novus Ordo during the week or if no indult is available.
While I empathize with the SSPX in many areas and think they are sincere in what they believe, we cannot create our own church. True the Church is in a terrible, terrible state these days, but we cannot ever hope to have things better by abandoning our belief in the Holy Catholic Church, and disregarding the will of the Holy Father.
While it is true that the Holy Spirit will never allow the Church to disintegrate completely, I do think that we are being tested, severly tested too I might add, and it is up to us to make things right, to stand firm in the faith and not give up. The early martyrs were prepared to and often did die for the faith. We should be willing to do no less…
COR JESU SACRATISSIMUM MISERERE NOBIS
Now I could be all wrong on that, but those seem to be the guiding principles.
That being said, and understand I am a hard core traditionalist, Rad Trad as it were, and I would never attend a SSPX Mass. I have had the opportunity to attend, on a daily basis I might add and did not. If there is an Indult I will attend that for Sunday and Holy days, and Novus Ordo during the week or if no indult is available.
While I empathize with the SSPX in many areas and think they are sincere in what they believe, we cannot create our own church. True the Church is in a terrible, terrible state these days, but we cannot ever hope to have things better by abandoning our belief in the Holy Catholic Church, and disregarding the will of the Holy Father.
While it is true that the Holy Spirit will never allow the Church to disintegrate completely, I do think that we are being tested, severly tested too I might add, and it is up to us to make things right, to stand firm in the faith and not give up. The early martyrs were prepared to and often did die for the faith. We should be willing to do no less…
COR JESU SACRATISSIMUM MISERERE NOBIS
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bear06
Guest
Once again, we’re only seeing soundbites from a secular paper commenting on something we haven’t seen ourselves. I tried to log onto their site but apparently, despite a nice flash, it’s not up and running yet.
Lohannes, do you believe we can attend the wedding of 2 protestants?
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totustuusmaria
Guest
Whever the Vatican has been asked whether it is permitted for a Catholic layman to attend an SSPX mass, the Vatican has answered that there is no such thing as a lay “member” of the SSPX and it is more or less an issue of conscience.
With that said, the SSPX is highly irregular and without faculties. Thus I would say that one should never attend the SSPX except for grave reasons. I would, however, count it a grave reason if you had a problem of conscience with the Novus Ordo and the only Traditional Mass you could attend was an SSPX mass.
One point: it’s ok to attend mass there for grave reasons; it is not ok to recieve the sacrements of Penance or Marriage there since these require jurisdiction. It is possible that one, the other, or both of these sacrements are invalid when recieved from a SSPX priest.
With that said, the SSPX is highly irregular and without faculties. Thus I would say that one should never attend the SSPX except for grave reasons. I would, however, count it a grave reason if you had a problem of conscience with the Novus Ordo and the only Traditional Mass you could attend was an SSPX mass.
One point: it’s ok to attend mass there for grave reasons; it is not ok to recieve the sacrements of Penance or Marriage there since these require jurisdiction. It is possible that one, the other, or both of these sacrements are invalid when recieved from a SSPX priest.
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Iohannes
Guest
Here is how it is played out:
If you are protestant, you are “imperfectly” united with the church as a “seperated bretheren”.
If you are Catholic, and attend a sspx chapel, or cleric, you are a “outside the church” and a “schismatic”, and no you are not invited to a interfaith assisi prayer service hindus and buddist are.
If you are protestant, you are “imperfectly” united with the church as a “seperated bretheren”.
If you are Catholic, and attend a sspx chapel, or cleric, you are a “outside the church” and a “schismatic”, and no you are not invited to a interfaith assisi prayer service hindus and buddist are.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
The link will only take you to one more radical traditionalist who thinks he’s more Catholic than the Pope and nothing good happened after the Council of Trent, except Vatican I. I don’t see why ANYONE, including Protestants, would regularly attend these services (I would only show for a wedding or a funeral), but to complain about the ill-treatment of the SSPX is disingenous. The SSPX are FORMAL schismatics and may be FORMAL heretics. Protestants are material heretics, who according to the Catechism cannot be “charged with the sin of seperation.” SSPX cannot make the same claim.
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Iohannes
Guest
The arthor of that article looks like he is an indult traditonalist, and the poster is a indult supporter.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Maybe, but he denounces what he terms as the “false” ecumenism of the Church (I deny that the Church’s understanding of ecumenism is false because the Church can’t BE false) and he defends the schismatic SSPX.
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Sean_O_L
Guest
Iohannes wrote:
Can you not comprehend that an originator (and his contemporary supporters) of schism and/or heresy is more guilty than his/their descendents - in very many cases of very many generations? This is, to be as plain as can be: Luther was more guilty than a Lutheran living in today’s world.
Just as Luther lost his Catholic Membership - so too do the present day SSPX adherents lose THEIR membership - and are subject to the Outside the Church there is no Salvation monition.
I am NOT saying that either Luther OR Lefebvre are thereby in Hell - but both placed themselves in grave danger thereof, and, like Judas (and all mankind), are subject the Judgement (and, hopefully, the Mercy of God.
We have NO idea whether Luther or Lefebvre gained and used the final graces which, it is defined Dogma - are sufficient for the Salvation of all men. Let us pray that they DID attain Salvation.
This is typically emotional and illogical unsubstantiated claims!
Can you not comprehend that an originator (and his contemporary supporters) of schism and/or heresy is more guilty than his/their descendents - in very many cases of very many generations? This is, to be as plain as can be: Luther was more guilty than a Lutheran living in today’s world.
Just as Luther lost his Catholic Membership - so too do the present day SSPX adherents lose THEIR membership - and are subject to the Outside the Church there is no Salvation monition.
I am NOT saying that either Luther OR Lefebvre are thereby in Hell - but both placed themselves in grave danger thereof, and, like Judas (and all mankind), are subject the Judgement (and, hopefully, the Mercy of God.
We have NO idea whether Luther or Lefebvre gained and used the final graces which, it is defined Dogma - are sufficient for the Salvation of all men. Let us pray that they DID attain Salvation.
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Sean_O_L
Guest
Iohannes wrote:
There ARE some “lay members” of the SSPX! The Members consist of the SSPX Bishops, priests AND lay Third Order Members.
Caveamous Iohannes!
Which is patently false - and should be a warning to you!
There ARE some “lay members” of the SSPX! The Members consist of the SSPX Bishops, priests AND lay Third Order Members.
Caveamous Iohannes!
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Sean_O_L
Guest
Here is a sample of Brian Mershon’s thoughts in April 2003:
http://www.diocesereport.com/guest_col/sspx_mershon_april03_response.shtml
http://www.diocesereport.com/guest_col/sspx_mershon_april03_response.shtml
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Iohannes
Guest
Sean O L:
As usual, you are taking things out of context. Generally, people who attend the SSPX chapels are not part of the SSPX, unless they are part of the Third order. That is what he meant. Or he does not know there is a third order sspx.
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Iohannes
Guest
Do you do anything other than go after the SSPX? It seems the SSPX is your phantom trying to kill you or trying to take you away. Number one, the number of SSPX priest in the US is only 50. That is not a lot of SSPX Masses in the United States compared to liturgical abuses that happen in the Novus Ordo.
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Iohannes
Guest
It is about hypocrisy.
At least the SSPX are showing who they are. The AmChurch bishops are wolves in sheeps clothing.
At least the SSPX are showing who they are. The AmChurch bishops are wolves in sheeps clothing.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Sean was a member of the SSPX for YEARS. I would take his observations about the society over most others. You seem to be able to do no other than dump on the post-conciliar Church.
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Marian_Carroll
Guest
**Please stay on thread subject which is the SSPX Mass question.
Introducing all kinds of extraneous side issues does not substitute for reasoned, charitable or intelligent discussion. Your help will be very much appreciated**
Introducing all kinds of extraneous side issues does not substitute for reasoned, charitable or intelligent discussion. Your help will be very much appreciated**
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bear06
Guest
Once again, check the thread title.
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