Is sociopathy evil or a mental disorder? Can a sociopath be healed?

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The only problem is, sometimes people don’t access to “professionals” at times when they most need it, i.e. when they are in a situation where they must make some kind of decision as to how to deal with this kind of person (the sociopath or seeming sociopath…). In that kind of situation, i guess the best advice would be the advice i heard from my priest in confession recently. He said something i had told myself years ago but had forgotten somehow & needed 2b reminded again: “… [when confused…] just walk in the Spirit.” If you are walking in the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, you are far less likely to make a terrible mistake. And with these kinds of people, there is always such a good chance of that… I ought to know… I have more than one in my life…
I suggest if you aren’t a professional and don’t have access to a professional, stay away from sociopaths. Walk away from them with the spirit – because without training and experience, you have little chance of making things better and most likely will make them worse.
 
Leonie, when next you hear about those aweful paedophiles remember the chances are they are adults who as children were sexually abused. Not all abused children grow up to be abusers but a lot of them do.
Some studies say that many abusers were abused themselves, but I do not agree with the last statment you made, “a lot of them [abused children] do [grow up to be abusers].” I don’t know what your definition of “a lot” is, but the term would make it seem it is more than a 50/50 chance. I know of no research that supports that. Please quote your sources if you know of research that supports that claim. Keep in mind that estimates have been made that 1 in 4 U.S. women were sexually abused as minors.
 
Please quote your sources
I can but my sources are subject to confidentialilty and cannot be quoted without permission. As an enforcment officer I will try to obtain permission. 👍
 
I can but my sources are subject to confidentialilty and cannot be quoted without permission. As an enforcment officer I will try to obtain permission. 👍
What was the wink and thumbs up for? This is a serious topic.
 
Contramundam

I agree with a lot of what you say, but for a lot of people, their conscience is not value free to make rational objective decisions.

Someone who has internalised a problem-solving strategy of ‘lying to get out of trouble’, have internalised this so that they instrinctively lie without giving any concious thought to what they are doing. We all have internalised behaviours which are so automatic we just do them without any concious thought.

If a behaviour is committed without appeal to consious thought then it cannot be subject to conscience, least not in the same way as someone who is taught and has internalised the rule that ‘to lie is wrong’.

It is true we all have a conscience but for some it is value-free but for others constrained and conditioned. I have no doubt God will judge not only the gravity of offence but also the degree of culpability
If i were to say that a person is virtually always held accountable for his lying, you would probably accuse me of being “judgmental”. Yet, by you saying the aforementioned, you are also “judging” - or so some would say. I am not one who would say you are, definitely, judging… I believe u r only trying to figure out something that may not be “figure-out-able”. In any case, it is God’s domain to know a person’s heart. Psychologists can forget about ever fully understanding any given person’s motives, intentions, etc. as He does Yet the Bible says we will “know them by their fruits”. What comes out of a person’s mouth is what is in his/her heart. If lies & evil stuff come out of a person’s mouth incessantly, i think we can safely assume that that person is not, objectively speaking (or even subjectively- speaking?), committed to Christ… (& we could say so without being guilty of “judging”)…
 
I suggest if you aren’t a professional and don’t have access to a professional, stay away from sociopaths. Walk away from them with the spirit – because without training and experience, you have little chance of making things better and most likely will make them worse.
I learned the wisdom of that adivce the hard way…

Even so, I am wondering if it may be God’s will that we not walk away 100% (??). At least we should not refuse them our prayers. I believe they need our prayers more than virtually anyone else…

Now this scripture comes to mind: “Whatever you do to the least of My brethren, you do unto Me…” (Matt 25:36?). Maybe the ones who need our prayers the most are the ones who are trying to follow Jesus? To me, a person who is sold out to doing what he/she wants and only that… well, maybe that person isn’t exactly the least of His brethren? I mean, i will continue to pray for these people, but i am not going to do so at the expense of those who are on the Cross of Trying to Follow Jesus 100%. That is a very difficult road to be on… To me, sociopaths have taken the easy way out… the way of avoiding crosses at any cost (though it won’t be so “easy” when they get to Hell)…
i have an idea! I will pray for your sociopaths if you will pray for mine! 🙂
 
I learned the wisdom of that adivce the hard way…

Even so, I am wondering if it may be God’s will that we not walk away 100% (??). At least we should not refuse them our prayers. I believe they need our prayers more than virtually anyone else…

Now this scripture comes to mind: “Whatever you do to the least of My brethren…” (Matt 25:36?). Maybe the ones who need our prayers the most are the ones who are trying to follow Jesus? To me, a person who is sold out to doing what he/she wants and only that… well, maybe that person isn’t exactly the least of His brethren? I mean, i will continue to pray for these people, but i am not going to do so at the expense of those who are on the Cross of Trying to Follow Jesus 100%. That is a very difficult road to be on… To me, sociopaths have taken the easy way out… (though it won’t be so “easy” when they get to Hell)… Hey - i have an idea! I will pray for your sociopaths if you will pray for mine! 🙂
You got yourself a deal.👍

My point, of course, is that “helping” sociopaths is like repairing the Space Shuttle – a job for qualified experts only.
 
In the current state of psychiatric medicine these personalities cannot be “cured.” Don’t hold your breath waiting for a miraculous cure, either. For your own protection keep this person out of your home. As you have seen, such a disordered personality spreads confusion and havoc in its wake.

In the Father’s Love,
Matthew
I agree completely. These people have no conscience. I had a sociopathic “boyfriend” once…why I got involved is beyond me, perhaps my self esteem was in the gutter at that time.

If you’re in a relationship with someone who uses and manipulates you - get out! Sometimes they will try anthing to keep you in the relationship, including words of love and threats of suicide, more often violence and threats.

Here’s a good book to read on the subject “The sociopath next door” by Martha Stout.
 
I agree completely. These people have no conscience. I had a sociopathic “boyfriend” once…why I got involved is beyond me, perhaps my self esteem was in the gutter at that time.

If you’re in a relationship with someone who uses and manipulates you - get out! Sometimes they will try anthing to keep you in the relationship, including words of love and threats of suicide, more often violence and threats.

Here’s a good book to read on the subject “The sociopath next door” by Martha Stout.
Kipling has something to say on this:
My son, if I, Haifez thy father
Take hold of thy knees in my pain
Demanding thy name on stamped paper
For one day or one hour, refrain.
Are the links of thy fetters so light
Thou cravest another man’s chain?
Who takes up with a sociopath can never “cure” that person – they can only add to their own fetters.
 
I read in one post that sociopathy is - or probably is - a mental illness. I think it is dangerous to call certain tendencies toward evil “mental illness”. A child under 7 may not have the ability to truly know right from wrong, but all, or most, others do. Mental illness, i feel, can interfere with a person’s… well, it can interfere with anything… but it can’t FORCE a person to do evil. The scriptures are very clear that those who choose evil and refuse to repent will end up in Hell. I think psychology often tends to complicate matters and make excuses for people’s behavior where God, apparently, does not. Of course, God is the ultimate judge & we never know how He sees things… All we have to go by is His Word, as expressed in Scripture and the Church…(plus what the Holy Spirit reveals to us, but who can prove such things absolutely?). It seems that no one wants to believe in eternal Hell anymore - its supposedly “not loving” to believe in such a horrible place. But in saying that, we are saying, in effect, that the Word (& justice) of God is un-loving. It then follows that God is not truly loving or just. Jesus said very clearly that whatever we do to the least of his brethren, we do to Him… and in the end of that passage, He speaks not of just punishment for those who don’t care for his brethren [Purgatory], but ETERNAL punishment… (Hell) (Matthew 25:31-46).
Sometimes we have to choose between psychology and God’s word…
Saying that a sociopath has a mental illness doesn’t negate Hell, it only acknowledges that God alone can judge a person’s heart. I’m sure there there is a method he uses to judge them, but only he knows that and we hope for his mercy, just as we do for ourselves.

Also, we are not born with a conscious as you know it. When a child is born they do not know right from wrong, they only know pain and pleasure. Being feed brings pleasure, being wet - pain. One thing a child of this age needs is holding by the parent, so that they learn that physical contact and closeness brings pleasure.

They remain in this stage until about the age of two when they start developing shame. A two year old doesn’t feel guilt when they perform a misdeed, but they do feel shame at being caught. It’s not until they reach the age of reason that they’ve truly developed guilt.

But this is all contingent on being properly trained. If not given the proper care as an infant the child distorts the pleasure and pain to pleasure being “what I want” and pain being “what I don’t want”. They learn that physical touch is bad and teach themselves not to want it, thereby making it physically painful to get a hug.

Then when they reach shame, they have no bond with the mother so being caught produces no effect of shame on them. They often get pleasure (and pleasure is what counts remember) from seeing the mother get upset they reinforced in their negative thinking. If they have no shame, they never develop guilt over their actions.

Now there is something of a conscious that is innate within us, which enables us to develop past the stage of two when all other animals remain at that emotional stage. Since not all institutionalized or abused children end up this way, there must be another factor to take into account. We only vaguely know the state of our own souls and I say vaguely because so often we delude ourselves into thinking we’re not all that bad. It’s easy to see the actions of others and not to take into account upbringing and knowledge.

Remember a sin is only a sin if the person KNOWS that it is wrong to do and chooses to do it with DELIBERATE CONSENT. They may intellectually know that an action is wrong, but feel that they have no choice but to commit the action. To do the good would be so physically painful that they would fear it as death itself.

As I said before, this doesn’t negate the possibility of Hell, and, in fact, it might be a more pleasant place for them if they were completely incapable of appreciating Good. In the end I pray for them, that the Lord will truly be merciful to them, whatever that will mean.
 
nally Posted by Sixtus
I can but my sources are subject to confidentialilty and cannot be quoted without permission. As an enforcment officer I will try to obtain permission.
What was the wink and thumbs up for? This is a serious topic.
Yes, I guess it is. But it is not the most serious. What do you do for a living? What is your experiences of people with problems? I ask because I am genuinely interested. I would like to know the person[ality] behind the statement.

The thumbs up means I will try to get permission but the likeli-hood is pretty remote. There is such a thing as Public Protection and that includes divulging of information. Otherwise known as 'the excesses of a Nanny State: protecting you from what is not considered in your best interests to know
 
nally Posted by Sixtus
I can but my sources are subject to confidentialilty and cannot be quoted without permission. As an enforcment officer I will try to obtain permission. 👍
Nobody said:
What was the wink and thumbs up for? This is a serious topic.
Yes, I guess it is. But it is not the most serious. What do you do for a living? What is your experiences of people with problems? I ask because I am genuinely interested. I would like to know the person[ality] behind the statement.

The thumbs up means I will try to get permission but the likeli-hood is pretty remote. There is such a thing as Public Protection and that includes divulging of information. Otherwise known as 'the excesses of a Nanny State: protecting you from what is not considered in your best interests to know
 
Sixtus said:
nally Posted by Sixtus
I can but my sources are subject to confidentialilty and cannot be quoted without permission. As an enforcment officer I will try to obtain permission.
Nobody replied
Nobody said:
Quote:What was the wink and thumbs up for? This is a serious topic.
Yes, I guess it is. What do you do for a living? What is your experiences of people with problems? I ask because I am genuinely interested. I would like to know the person[ality] behind the statement.

The thumbs up means I will try to get permission but the likeli-hood is pretty remote. There is such a thing as Public Protection and that includes divulging of information. Otherwise known as ‘the excesses of a Nanny State’: 'protecting you from what is considered ‘not in your best interests to know’! 👍
 
Sixtus said:
I can but my sources are subject to confidentialilty and cannot be quoted without permission. As an enforcment officer I will try to obtain permission. 👍
Nobody replied

Quote:What was the wink and thumbs up for? This is a serious topic.

Yes, I guess it is. What do you do for a living? What is your experiences of people with problems? I ask because I am genuinely interested. I would like to know the person[ality] behind the statement.

The thumbs up means I will try to get permission but the likeli-hood is pretty remote. There is such a thing as Public Protection and that includes divulging of information. Otherwise known as ‘the excesses of a Nanny State’: protecting you from what is considered ‘not in your best interests to know’! 👍
 
Every human being is different. But it is possible to make observations and to look for patterns. That is the role of forensic psychology. In my own experiences of what you call sociopaths [not quite sure what you mean by this but your name will suffice]. I have observed six factors of personality manfested in every case I have observed:** Neurosis, impulsivity, insensitive to the feelings of others, inhumane, aggressive and a low tolerance to frustration hence the often impulsive behaviour.**

Insensitivity to the feelings of others and inhumane may be evil I do not know. But neurosis and impulsivity are not, they are learned behaviours.

In UK the 1983 Mental Health Act allows for complusory detention only if it is felt that either there is a public risk or there is a chance of treatment and recovery.

But the above are only extreme manifestations. No disrespects but I have seen lesser symptomatic behavioural manifestations in all sorts of social situations including people in Church, in the Knights of St Columba and even on this forum.

No disrespects but folk on this forum are often of the ‘hang-em and flogg em’ brigade. By that I mean that anyone with a problem is seen as psychopathic. Even in this thread. Sometimes I read contributions and they display such an ignorance and naivity [of pathology] I have to turn my computer off and go make a cup of coffee!!

Whether or not the person is possessed, it must not be forgotten that they are usually such due to biological factors in social interaction. That means society and culture are heavily incriminated in the making of sociopathalogical disorder.

I welcome an (name removed by moderator)ut from other suitably qualified and experienced professionals on what I have just said. If they contradict me, then I stand contradicted and I shall re-evaluate my perceptions.

Please note: I am in no way trying to minimalise the tragedy or victimising effects such people have on ordinary folk. It can be very traumatic. Arguably some of their victims never recover from the ordeal.

I would like to see such a person enter a room with a competent excorsist. It is my belief they would harm the excorsist before they had excorcised but it would be an interesting experiment. I would like to see a range of sociopaths with a range of exorcists in a controlled laboratory experiment
 
I read the *Sociopath Next Door *last night. It didn’t help me much to sort this out.

The author says that research shows that in the USA, one in twenty-five people is a sociopath. And, that there is a fifty percent genetic component. And, that early childhood abuse is not definitely linked to sociopathy. Sociopaths have no conscience and no ability to love.

This just doesn’t square with my Catholic worldview. Aren’t we all born with the law of God written in our hearts?

And, there is no love at all? Aren’t all people made in the image of God–how can they have no ability to love?
 
Leonie wrote:
research shows that in the USA, one in twenty-five people is a sociopath.
I simply do not believe that. One of the symptomes of sociopathy is neurosis. I can believe that one in 25 is neurotic but not possessing full-blown pathology.I would say probably less than one in 1000!
fifty percent genetic component.?
That is probably correct. The single biggest is XYY AND XYYY

In Uk less than one in 1000,000 are XYYY yet in Broadmore psychiatric prison about 1 in every 5 criminally insane are XYYY!

I argued the case for screening all new born babies for genetic propensity and where XYYY was detected, monitoring thoughtout their lives, but that was considered a breach of human rights!! If 1 in 5 criminally insane is a convicted mass murderer, what about the human rights of the murdered victims of sociopaths? Not all XYYY become mass murderers.
And, that early childhood abuse is not definitely linked to sociopathy.
No one would suggest it is. 1 in 10of hte adult population over the age of 50 has been abused by one definition or another but probably less than 1abused person in 100 has any malevolence towards others. Though a lot do end up malevolent towards themselves, in self harm and extreme sexual abberations.
Sociopaths have no conscience and no ability to love.
See my post above where I cite this from my observations based on my experiences.
This just doesn’t square with my Catholic worldview. Aren’t we all born with the law of God written in our hearts
If only life was that simple. As a practicing catholic have to accept all the church teaches but based on my hard experiences, have learned there is a disparity between church teaching and the cold facts of reality.

It may be the case that 'all are conceived with the propensity All amy be born with it but it is a cold hard fact that not all are born with the propensity to cultivate it.

Genetic component is a major factor, but even this tends to be modified by the experiences of the individual in their social interactions, peer groups influence and role models from child- hood.

So child hood abuse is not sufficient cause on its own. Invariably there are a lot more factors, not least influences from the sociopaths [or more correctly] sociopathological social environment.
 
Leonie wrote:

I simply do not believe that. One of the symptomes of sociopathy is neurosis. I can believe that one in 25 is neurotic but not possessing full-blown pathology.I would say probably less than one in 1000!

That is probably correct. The single biggest is XYY AND XYYY

In Uk less than one in 1000,000 are XYYY yet in Broadmore psychiatric prison about 1 in every 5 criminally insane are XYYY!

I argued the case for screening all new born babies for genetic propensity and where XYYY was detected, monitoring thoughtout their lives, but that was considered a breach of human rights!! If 1 in 5 criminally insane is a convicted mass murderer, what about the human rights of the murdered victims of sociopaths? Not all XYYY become mass murderers.

No one would suggest it is. 1 in 10of hte adult population over the age of 50 has been abused by one definition or another but probably less than 1abused person in 100 has any malevolence towards others. Though a lot do end up malevolent towards themselves, in self harm and extreme sexual abberations.

See my post above where I cite this from my observations based on my experiences.

If only life was that simple. As a practicing catholic have to accept all the church teaches but based on my hard experiences, have learned there is a disparity between church teaching and the cold facts of reality.

It may be the case that 'all are conceived with the propensity All amy be born with it but it is a cold hard fact that not all are born with the propensity to cultivate it.

Genetic component is a major factor, but even this tends to be modified by the experiences of the individual in their social interactions, peer groups influence and role models from child- hood.

So child hood abuse is not sufficient cause on its own. Invariably there are a lot more factors, not least influences from the sociopaths [or more correctly] sociopathological social environment.
 
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contramundum7:
…All this talk about genetics, childhood abuse, etc. To me, these are just influences, not causes per se. Once a person becomes an adult (actually no, about the age of 7, but definitely by the time of adulthood), he/she is capable of knowing right and wrong. As the catechism says, there are factors that make a person less than fully culpable… but still… Sin is wrong because God (and only God) can see ALL the possible consequences that inevitably result from men’s sins…
An analogy that has been used b4 but maybe needs repeating: A father tells his 3 boys go outside to play but “don’t get dirty”. One boy accidentally falls into a mud puddle. Another is pushed into a mud puddle by a friend. The third one deliberately throws himself into a mud puddle. Assume that the depth of the puddles (extent of dirtiness) is the same. Obviously, the father is going to be more angry at the third boy… but there is the question of: Which one needs a bath?
To me, the third boy is the sociopath. And his bath may end up being more uncomfortable since he’s distanced himself from his loving father.
I believe most sociopaths were spoiled by at least one parent and at the same time, neglected and/or otherwise abused by one or both parents. His being spoiled leads to a sense of “entitlement” which i believe all socios have… yet he is also self-destructive because of the absue/neglect… &/or other factors.
Anyway, i’m out of time. About the extra chromosome: maybe it should be seen as a handicap - but we all have handicaps (which explain but do not exonerate…).
 
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