Is sociopathy evil or a mental disorder? Can a sociopath be healed?

[contramundum7]

I read the *Sociopath Next Door *last night. It didn’t help me much to sort this out.

The author says that research shows that in the USA, one in twenty-five people is a sociopath. And, that there is a fifty percent genetic component. And, that early childhood abuse is not definitely linked to sociopathy. Sociopaths have no conscience and no ability to love.

This just doesn’t square with my Catholic worldview. Aren’t we all born with the law of God written in our hearts?

And, there is no love at all? Aren’t all people made in the image of God–how can they have no ability to love?

 

[contramundum7]

contramundum7:
i had these same thoughts when i first encountered the s-paths in my life… but i really am (99%) convinced they have no conscience… I hope i am wrong… But in any case, God can give them back their consciences if they repent and repentance is something anyone can do even if its on the day he/she dies… I feel the only remedy for the problem is the Church - meaning the rosary and all the other weapons against Satan that the Church has. As that song by Marvin Gaye says: “…only love can conquer hate.” which is a what the scipture says, basically
“Love never fails.”

 

[Keikiolu]

My brother has had a tumultuous relationship with his ex girlfriend for 8 years or so. I trully think this woman is a borderline sociopath. She is a master manipulator. She lies all the time. It even seems like she will believe her lies as soon as she tells them. In conversation, she says exactly the right thing. She uses people to get what she wants. She seems to have no remorse. She is extremely charming.

She says she was abused as a child, but it is hard to know because she has lied about her past. In fact, she had the father of her first two children arrested for sexual abuse, then years later, said it was just a misunderstanding. You can’t trust anything she says–she will even lie about things that don’t matter like whether or not she likes a tv show. She’s lied about her brothers hitting her. She’s lied about my brother hitting her. She is very convincing.

I don’t know if she is just evil or mentally ill or if its all twisted up inside her. Of course, we pray for her.

Whether or not she really is a sociopath, sociopaths really confuse me.

Is it a mental illness? Can they be healed? Are they responsible for their evil actions? Are they trully incapable of remorse–thus they can’t repent. Are they then just perpetually damaged children? Could they be possessed?

Any ideas?

In so much as she is allowed the capacity to choose evil, and does so, her behavior is evil.

“She” is not evil, as a person, as she could always come to faith and right behavior, but her behavior is indeed evil.

She is diseased. She CAN be healed. She IS responsible, as a person, for her behavior (evil or otherwise). She IS capable of remorse, whether she exercises being remorseful or not. She is a PERSON of adult age, which makes her an adult, but her development has been ALLOWED to remain at a “childish” stage. She could be possessed,… see a priest.

The point is that she needs to be “constrained” such that she simply CAN’T get any “perks” from behaving evilly.

How would YOU pull that one off…? That’s the solution.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[leonie]

I’ve decided that despite what understanding that psychology can offer about sociopaths, I know the Church is Truth. So, I can only understand this type of person through the eyes of the Church.

The Church teaches that the law of God is written in the hearts of men. The Church teaches that all can be saved.

Therefore, it is impossible for any man not to have a conscience. If a man has a conscience, then he must be capable of remorse.

In this scenario, a sociopath would be responsible for the evil he has wrought. But, perhaps if he had a poor upbringing or some mental deficiency, he would not be as culpable as the rest of us.

And, I have to think that the devil works harder on these folks–weakening their wills and reason, tempting them, and twisting their perceptions. They probably aren’t possessed but severely oppressed.

How does that sound?

 

[Sixtus]

All this talk about genetics, childhood abuse, etc. To me, these are just influences, not causes per se.

Possibly, but we simply do not know the extent of the influences.

It may be the case among some the influences are not very much, to others they may account for 99% of the action

God (and only God) can see ALL the possible consequences that inevitably result from men’s sins…
).

Agree 100%

An analogy that has been used b4 but maybe needs repeating: A father tells his 3 boys go outside to play but “don’t get dirty”. One boy accidentally falls into a mud puddle. Another is pushed into a mud puddle by a friend. The third one deliberately throws himself into a mud puddle. Assume that the depth of the puddles (extent of dirtiness) is the same. Obviously, the father is going to be more angry at the third boy… but there is the question of: Which one needs a bath?
To me, the third boy is the sociopath. And his bath may end up being more uncomfortable since he’s distanced himself from his loving father.
…

The analogy is a good one. But it depends upon each child’s understanding of ‘not getting dirty’! One might think a very small spot of dirt is unacceptable, he is the one who has been brow-beaten, Another might think that a spot that can be seen and spoils appearance is dirt, he is the one who has received a balanced moral education and understands. Another might think getting dirty means the entire body caked in mud, if there is a spot on the body still without mud on it, then he is in his mind ‘clean’. Another might not even understand what is meant by ‘dirty’ and rolls around in the mud umpteen times and still does not know he is dirty’. I suggest the latter is the sociopath!

I believe most sociopaths were spoiled

You might be right, I simply do not know the answer to that one, nor have any evidence to support [or refute] your hypothesise.

extra chromosome: maybe it should be seen as a handicap - but we all have handicaps (which explain but do not exonera

A lot of people have disabilities. But very few have one’s which affect moral reasoning. There are many genetic varients such as those collectively called ‘learning disabilities’ which do affect ability to reason. That is why lots of folk are not culpable in law. A lot of learning disabilities DO have moral reasoning, but by no means all, it depends on the extent of the ability to reason.

Learning disability does not = mental illness, though of course a lot of people with learning disability also have mental health issues.

XYY and XYYY men are by definition very aggressive. They cannot help that. It is to a large extent due to a huge surge of testosterone going around their bodies. Testosterone is also a neurotransmitter which affects our thinking. This has not only physical consequencs but also affects neurological functioning too!

XYYY men also display a general lack of ability to empathise. I [and lots of others] get a bit squeamish if someone injures a fingernail. Someone once curled the nail back and it made my stomach turn. I felt sick and nauseas. That is the natural response. If someone is incapable of empathiy, they would not react. In fact they are incapable of imagining what anothers pain or discmfort is like. If anything, they would actually enjoy it.

I could use other descriptors but are beyond the scope of this discussion and forum. Suffice it to say sociopaths are incapable of any sort of empathy. In that sense it may be seen as a disability in its own right.

They would never repent seeings they would not consider they have anything to repent of. They would see the suggestion as ‘mindless’ or ‘madness’! They would see benevolence as pointless. They might be capable of helping someone distressed but only because they were asked and had nothing better to do at the time. They would not help because they empathised with another persons plight, which might be the major influence behind our benevolence.

In that sense, a sociopath might be seen as more generous than a generous person, as they are capable of ‘helping’ when they really do not see a need, but do so just because another person has asked. But they would turn it around if they could so that it ends up being destructive to the other person so help from a sociopath is not necassarily something anyone would want.

 

[Sixtus]

Leonie said:

Therefore, it is impossible for any man not to have a conscience. If a man has a conscience, then he must be capable of remorse.

In this scenario, a sociopath would be responsible for the evil he has wrought. But, perhaps if he had a poor upbringing or some mental deficiency, he would not be as culpable as the rest of us.

A sociopath may have a conscience but it is the extent that it functions that counts. I may feel very guilty at not holding a door open for someone struggling with their hands ful. A sociopath might kill someone and feel a mile twinge of guilt they have a dog which won’t go out for a walk tonight! That is the difference.

In world war two we had numourous examples of sociopaths committing horrendous counts of murder. It is unlikely they felt anything at the time. But after a period of reflection, who knows!!

the devil works harder on these folks–weakening their wills and reason, tempting them, and twisting their perceptions. They probably aren’t possessed but severely oppressed.

How does that sound?

I think Leonie has probably hit the nail on the head. I am sure it is no coincidence they seem to find the perverted material they seek to suppiment their already perverse thinking. I am sure you are absolutely right.

It sounds pretty good to me.

No doubt there were sociopaths in the Lords Day. How many chose to follow HIm? We will of course never know, but I would imagine there were very few.

History shows how some sociopaths have turned to God and become very religious. My own ancestors [on my mothers side] were close family relations of William the Conqurer [cousins of William], went on to commit terrible crimes against the Welsh, one of whom reflected on his terrible guilt, gave away all his wealth and spent the rest of his life in a monastery. So it does go to show they are capable of redemption. But that fellow not until after he had personally ordered the brutal killiing of thousands of innocent men women and children.

 

[contramundum7]

In so much as she is allowed the capacity to choose evil, and does so, her behavior is evil.

“She” is not evil, as a person, as she could always come to faith and right behavior, but her behavior is indeed evil.

She is diseased. She CAN be healed. She IS responsible, as a person, for her behavior (evil or otherwise). She IS capable of remorse, whether she exercises being remorseful or not. She is a PERSON of adult age, which makes her an adult, but her development has been ALLOWED to remain at a “childish” stage. She could be possessed,… see a priest.

The point is that she needs to be “constrained” such that she simply CAN’T get any “perks” from behaving evilly.

How would YOU pull that one off…? That’s the solution.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

I wouldn’t say she is borderline sociopath - i would say she is all the way there… And, as stated in another post, i believe part of the reason people get that way is by being “spoiled” by one or both parents/caregivers and at the same time, mistreated/abused/neglected… but even so, there comes a time in everyone’s life when he/she is given a choice to follow the right path or the wrong path… We must always pray for those who are on the wrong path (esp: the rosary/offering up Masses!). As Jesus said while dying on the Cross “… they know not what they do…” None of us really knows what we are doing in life… We commit sins without wanting to or meaning to… and then we & others are left to deal with the consequences. Sociopaths are like everyone else in that sense. I feel that its not so much that they don’t have a conscience (although that may be the case 90% of the time??), it is probably more accurate 2 say that they have a different criteria for what they consider “right” and “wrong”, sinful & not sinful… They got sent “off” messages as children.
One criticism i have of the Catholic Church: It doesn’t catechize its own people very well… & therefore, it is no wonder Her members & especially those outside the Church get Her wrong… & there-4 fall into error… but if all people were catechized in the Catholic faith, there would be FAR fewer sociopaths/criminals in this world… and more people getting into Heaven. Martin Luther ruined everything…
Spread the Catholic Faith in whatever way you can!!

 

[Sixtus]

One criticism i have of the Catholic Church: It doesn’t catechize its own people very well.

I cannot say I have ever knowingly met a sociopath who is catholic, but in my experience ‘ex’ catholics are among the most unChristian people one could ever meet.

My theory is that they are well aware of what they have turned their backs upon and think ‘what the hell, I am bad so I am going to be really so’.

Just a thought.

 

[nobody]

If only life was that simple. As a practicing catholic have to accept all the church teaches but based on my hard experiences, have learned there is a disparity between church teaching and the cold facts of reality.

I would like to talk about this more. This belief could harm faith, couldn’t it?

You do go on to say:

It may be the case that 'all are conceived with the propensity All amy be born with it but it is a cold hard fact that not all are born with the propensity to cultivate it.

Genetic component is a major factor, but even this tends to be modified by the experiences of the individual in their social interactions, peer groups influence and role models from child- hood.

All of the above are results of humans’ “fallen nature”, the results of original sin, yes?

Is there any medical cure for the XYY/XYYY condition?

Do you believe that God could cure these people with a miracle? What might bring about that miracle?

I am tempted to digress to my usual topic of “why does God allow evil?” but I do not want to divert this thread. I think I’ve asked enough questions for this post.

 

[jman507]

As to the state of the sociopath’s soul, and one’s ability to repent, I can say I am not a qualified to make that judgement, I’ll refer you to God.

 

[rubycanoe]

I think my stepdaughter possibly has this disorder. I am not sure it may be a different personality disorder or illness that has always lied? I met her when she was seven years old, and her dad and I were engaged. She happened to be in the same class as my son and at teacher conferences (without my husband) the teacher told me that she lies, I think she tried to warn me but it made me feel bad. I always try to be open minded and loving. Her mom had custody of her and my husband found out she was on drugs and leaving her alone and went to court they just made her mom go to treatment and she still had custody of her. I did feel that she lies, and at age ten told me she liked being mean to other girls. I also think she shoplifted once when I was with her. All this was horrifying to me. I think my husband was the one who spoiled her and her mom spoiled/neglected /hit her They moved far away when she was 13 and she came to live with us twice at 14 and 17 when her mom kicked her out. She never finished high school ,and also dropped out of alternative school .I dont think her mom ever took her to school when she was younger, she walked or did the normal things parents do ,never gave her rides anywhere ,which I know some parents do but not me I took them a lot of places, tried to do a lot for them, give them opportunities.
Anyway she ended up a meth addict, spend almost a year in jail, doesnt keep a job more then 2 months. I just worry about her having more than a drug addiction and if I can ever trust her or if she is a sociopath who believes her own lies?

 

[leonie]

I think my stepdaughter possibly has this disorder. I am not sure it may be a different personality disorder or illness that has always lied? I met her when she was seven years old, and her dad and I were engaged. She happened to be in the same class as my son and at teacher conferences (without my husband) the teacher told me that she lies, I think she tried to warn me but it made me feel bad. I always try to be open minded and loving. Her mom had custody of her and my husband found out she was on drugs and leaving her alone and went to court they just made her mom go to treatment and she still had custody of her. I did feel that she lies, and at age ten told me she liked being mean to other girls. I also think she shoplifted once when I was with her. All this was horrifying to me. I think my husband was the one who spoiled her and her mom spoiled/neglected /hit her They moved far away when she was 13 and she came to live with us twice at 14 and 17 when her mom kicked her out. She never finished high school ,and also dropped out of alternative school .I dont think her mom ever took her to school when she was younger, she walked or did the normal things parents do ,never gave her rides anywhere ,which I know some parents do but not me I took them a lot of places, tried to do a lot for them, give them opportunities.
Anyway she ended up a meth addict, spend almost a year in jail, doesnt keep a job more then 2 months. I just worry about her having more than a drug addiction and if I can ever trust her or if she is a sociopath who believes her own lies?

I think it is possible to love someone without trusting her. I don’t think it is safe to ever trust someone who has a track record of lying.

My brother’s exgirlfriend (who I think is a sociopath) also has trouble keeping a job. She has no trouble getting a job—she’s very charming, but after a couple of months, she gets caught in her lies and either gets fired or quits before she can be fired.

 

[contramundum7]

I cannot say I have ever knowingly met a sociopath who is catholic, but in my experience ‘ex’ catholics are among the most unChristian people one could ever meet.

My theory is that they are well aware of what they have turned their backs upon and think ‘what the hell, I am bad so I am going to be really so’.

Just a thought.

This is an interesting comment 2 me because i have observed the same thing. One “exception” (or whatever): When i was a… well… not an ex-Catholic but a non-practicing Catholic, i wasn’t such a rotten person as far as hurting anyone or whatever, but i really committed some whoppers in other ways… (long story). Now i am in “Purgatory” on Earth, “endlessly” paying for my sins, some of which i know i will pay for (virtually) til i die. But in any case, i have also noticed that those who outright reject the Church (i never have) really ARE the MOST un=Christian people i’ve ever met (“You will know them by their fruits”). One person i am thinking of at the moment acts like she’s possessed when she doesn’t get her way (or used 2 - i don’t associate with her anymore). The interesting thing is that she calls (called) herself a Christian (watches - or used to - Benny Hinn, TBN, etc…).
Those who attack the Catholic Church would do well to remember the story of Uzzah & what happened when he touched the Ark of the Covenant - against God’s express commands… Even though he did so (?) more or less out of ignorance, he died. The Catholic Church is the New Ark of the Covenant because Jesus’ True Presence abides there 24/7…
I feel that the reason Jesus tells us that there are “few who find the way of eternal life” is that few seem to want to be TRULY Catholic… It is a hard way to live… which is why Jesus calls it the “narrow” way"… But oh well. I’m sure Heaven is worth it. Anyway, i have to go. God bless…
Also - there ARE Catholic sociopaths, but i do believe they are few and far between and even when u find one, he/she may not be as “bad” a sociopath as one who is not Catholic…
If anyone reading this knows of a Catholic sociopath (or supsected one?) please let the forum know. I, for one, am very interested… God bless.

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

One criticism i have of the Catholic Church: It doesn’t catechize its own people very well… & therefore, it is no wonder Her members & especially those outside the Church get Her wrong… & there-4 fall into error… but if all people were catechized in the Catholic faith, there would be FAR fewer sociopaths/criminals in this world.… and more people getting into Heaven. Martin Luther ruined everything…
Spread the Catholic Faith in whatever way you can!!

I’ve been thinking about what a completely Catholic world would be like, where ALL people were well catechized in the faith.

• All the various cultures of the world would exist and flourish.
• The economies of the world would be VERY similar to what they are now, except that there would be more “HEART” in it.
• All people would have a common way of relating to each other, on the personal, community and national levels.
• There would still be squabbles between individuals and groups, but handling those squabbles would be more “civil”
• “Mental health” would be handled ENTIRELY differently, and infinitely more effectively.
  Many people would argue vehemently that it would be a complete tyranny of the Papists,… but I would disagree.

Some would say, “Isn’t that what the Islamicists want, and wouldn’t that be a BAD thing!?”

That WOULD be a bad thing, but not because there would be a unifying force that overhung all humanity. It would be a bad thing because it wouldn’t be Christian (Catholic).

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

My theory is that they are well aware of what they have turned their backs upon and think ‘what the hell, I am bad so I am going to be really so’.

Just a thought.

Yup. They figure they’re goin’ to hell anyway,… may as well have a grand ol’ time while they can…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[contramundum7]

I’ve been thinking about what a completely Catholic world would be like, where ALL people were well catechized in the faith.

• All the various cultures of the world would exist and flourish.
• The economies of the world would be VERY similar to what they are now, except that there would be more “HEART” in it.
• All people would have a common way of relating to each other, on the personal, community and national levels.
• There would still be squabbles between individuals and groups, but handling those squabbles would be more “civil”
• “Mental health” would be handled ENTIRELY differently, and infinitely more effectively.
  Many people would argue vehemently that it would be a complete tyranny of the Papists,… but I would disagree.

Some would say, “Isn’t that what the Islamicists want, and wouldn’t that be a BAD thing!?”

That WOULD be a bad thing, but not because there would be a unifying force that overhung all humanity. It would be a bad thing because it wouldn’t be Christian (Catholic).

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

Its interesting that at one time, the whole known world was either Catholic of unbelievers… All the christians were more or less on the same page… i think that would be so wonderful… Like i said, Martin Luther ruined everything… It is because people don’t know Jesus that they do the things they do. I didn’t always know Jesus and at that time in my life, i was lost, felt alone, committed sins without really meaning to or knowing what the consequences would be… I didn’t know God and thoght all kinds of weird things about him (such as: he doesn’t love me and i can’t come back to him because he’s too holy and i’m worthless - which was a message i got from certain people in my life. I projected that onto God, something a lot of people do…).
things in my life now are not perfect, but at least i know God and his wonderful Son… and some day, all that’s wrong in this world will be made right in the Heaven i plan to get to…
God bless…

 

[distracted]

I agree completely. These people have no conscience. I had a sociopathic “boyfriend” once…why I got involved is beyond me, perhaps my self esteem was in the gutter at that time.

If you’re in a relationship with someone who uses and manipulates you - get out! Sometimes they will try anthing to keep you in the relationship, including words of love and threats of suicide, more often violence and threats.

Here’s a good book to read on the subject “The sociopath next door” by Martha Stout.

Thanks for the info about the book. I hope the library has it. God bless…

 

[distracted]

Leonie wrote:

I simply do not believe that. One of the symptomes of sociopathy is neurosis. I can believe that one in 25 is neurotic but not possessing full-blown pathology.I would say probably less than one in 1000!

That is probably correct. The single biggest is XYY AND XYYY

In Uk less than one in 1000,000 are XYYY yet in Broadmore psychiatric prison about 1 in every 5 criminally insane are XYYY!

I argued the case for screening all new born babies for genetic propensity and where XYYY was detected, monitoring thoughtout their lives, but that was considered a breach of human rights!! If 1 in 5 criminally insane is a convicted mass murderer, what about the human rights of the murdered victims of sociopaths? Not all XYYY become mass murderers.

No one would suggest it is. 1 in 10of hte adult population over the age of 50 has been abused by one definition or another but probably less than 1abused person in 100 has any malevolence towards others. Though a lot do end up malevolent towards themselves, in self harm and extreme sexual abberations.

See my post above where I cite this from my observations based on my experiences.

If only life was that simple. As a practicing catholic have to accept all the church teaches but based on my hard experiences, have learned there is a disparity between church teaching and the cold facts of reality.

It may be the case that 'all are conceived with the propensity All amy be born with it but it is a cold hard fact that not all are born with the propensity to cultivate it.

Genetic component is a major factor, but even this tends to be modified by the experiences of the individual in their social interactions, peer groups influence and role models from child- hood.

So child hood abuse is not sufficient cause on its own. Invariably there are a lot more factors, not least influences from the sociopaths [or more correctly] sociopathological social environment.

 

[distracted]

Leonie said:

A sociopath may have a conscience but it is the extent that it functions that counts. I may feel very guilty at not holding a door open for someone struggling with their hands ful. A sociopath might kill someone and feel a mile twinge of guilt they have a dog which won’t go out for a walk tonight! That is the difference.

In world war two we had numourous examples of sociopaths committing horrendous counts of murder. It is unlikely they felt anything at the time. But after a period of reflection, who knows!!

I think Leonie has probably hit the nail on the head. I am sure it is no coincidence they seem to find the perverted material they seek to suppiment their already perverse thinking. I am sure you are absolutely right.

It sounds pretty good to me.

No doubt there were sociopaths in the Lords Day. How many chose to follow HIm? We will of course never know, but I would imagine there were very few.

History shows how some sociopaths have turned to God and become very religious. My own ancestors [on my mothers side] were close family relations of William the Conqurer [cousins of William], went on to commit terrible crimes against the Welsh, one of whom reflected on his terrible guilt, gave away all his wealth and spent the rest of his life in a monastery. So it does go to show they are capable of redemption. But that fellow not until after he had personally ordered the brutal killiing of thousands of innocent men women and children.

God’s truth never contradicts “cold hard facts”… There are many things about God’s creation we do not understand… but that doesn’t take away from what the Church teaches us - officially. I am wondering if you could explain better what you meant by this statemnt? Thanks…

 

[leonie]

God’s truth never contradicts “cold hard facts”… There are many things about God’s creation we do not understand… but that doesn’t take away from what the Church teaches us - officially. I am wondering if you could explain better what you meant by this statemnt? Thanks…

I think I was accidently cited for other’s statements.

I guess what I am wondering if sociopathy can even exist given Catholic teaching. It would seem not. The Church teaches that everyone has a conscience–the law of God written in our hearts. And that all can be saved.

Given this, there can’t be a person with no conscience at all–who is capable of no remorse, right?