Is suffering ever pointless?

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On the level I believe you are asking the question (as opposed to say a purely biological or evolutionary level), my own two cents would say that, yes, some suffering is immediately pointless. Not everything in this world is pre-ordained and ordered to humanity’s cause for fulfillment. Did the baby dinosaur who died after two days serve a purpose? Does that ant over there in the rainforest serve a purpose? What about that little fish in the deep ocean water that will never be discovered? Or the star in that distant galaxy? I take it that suffering is one of those things that can be ordered to God for meaning and purpose but can also be purely a result of the biology we have, a side effect of the limited Universe we inhabit. In the end, everyone will be happy and without pain with God except those who reject him.
 
catholic1seeks said:
On the level I believe you are asking the question (as opposed to say a purely biological or evolutionary level), my own two cents would say that, yes, some suffering is immediately pointless. Not everything in this world is pre-ordained and ordered to humanity’s cause for fulfillment.
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Nothing is wasted in God’s universe nor is suffering ever pointless if offered to God. We can offer all suffering to him, even that which we do not suffer because it has meaning to God, if not to all of us.
Did the baby dinosaur who died after two days serve a purpose? Does that ant over there in the rainforest serve a purpose? What about that little fish in the deep ocean water that will never be discovered? Or the star in that distant galaxy?
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Babies of all kinds have died down through earth’s history. Generally there is something seriously wrong with a baby that dies. Do those deaths mean nothing to God? Of course not. He knows every sparrow that alits in the trees. And I’m quite sure little fish in the deep ocean could care less if human beings ever know of its existence. They exist because God created them and loves them–that is sufficient for them. The stars don’t need our recognition, either–why would they? They serve God’s purpose, even if we don’t know what that purpose is.
I take it that suffering is one of those things that can be ordered to God for meaning and purpose but can also be purely a result of the biology we have, a side effect of the limited Universe we inhabit. In the end, everyone will be happy and without pain with God except those who reject him.
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You talk as if God is unaware of our biology and our limitations within our physical lives. He created us, and he knows full well the results of man’s fall from grace. Our happiness does not depend on having no sufferings–most of us suffer in some way, rather our happiness depends on our relationship with God–if we are in his grace. That’s what makes all our joys and our sufferings worthwhile.
 
Della said:
Nothing is wasted in God’s universe nor is suffering ever pointless if offered to God. We can offer all suffering to him, even that which we do not suffer because it has meaning to God, if not to all of us.

Babies of all kinds have died down through earth’s history. Generally there is something seriously wrong with a baby that dies. Do those deaths mean nothing to God? Of course not. He knows every sparrow that alits in the trees. And I’m quite sure little fish in the deep ocean could care less if human beings ever know of its existence. They exist because God created them and loves them–that is sufficient for them. The stars don’t need our recognition, either–why would they? They serve God’s purpose, even if we don’t know what that purpose is.

You talk as if God is unaware of our biology and our limitations within our physical lives. He created us, and he knows full well the results of man’s fall from grace. Our happiness does not depend on having no sufferings–most of us suffer in some way, rather our happiness depends on our relationship with God–if we are in his grace. That’s what makes all our joys and our sufferings worthwhile.
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Not everyone unites their sufferings to Christ. I did not say that it was pointless to do that, but again, not everyone does so.

Also, I said Not everything in this world is pre-ordained and ordered to humanity’s cause for fulfillment, which is why I gave the example I did.

God created a Universe that includes chance. Catholic doctrine does not specify that he orders, commands, and directly produces every single occurrence in nature.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Not everyone unites their sufferings to Christ. I did not say that it was pointless to do that, but again, not everyone does so.
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If only they knew they could, yes? 🙂
Also, I said Not everything in this world is pre-ordained and ordered to humanity’s cause for fulfillment, which is why I gave the example I did.
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Sorry to have misunderstood you. :tiphat:
God created a Universe that includes chance. Catholic doctrine does not specify that he orders, commands, and directly produces every single occurrence in nature.
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Yes, that’s true. But, of course, he knows everything that happens. It all plays into his will in one way or the other.
 
tonyrey said:
Does severe pain always serve a useful purpose?
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It depends upon the context, naturally.

Someone mentioned the pain of their toothache that cannot be tended to for some time due to financial reasons. But even then, that serves a purpose. Our bodies live in the present; if we felt a pain that then ceased, we would not consider it important enough to deal with. By a pain that continues, our bodies insist that the mind tends to their needs.

Other times however, the pain is useless, such as the pain felt **after **you stub your toe, when there is nothing to be done. Or the pain of a broken limb: the inability to use the limb is all the warning needed.

Basically, pain, like fever, allergy or inflammation, is a body-defense mechanism that developed from a flawed nature and does not work perfectly.

ICXC NIKA
 
IMNAAHO, and only IMNAAHO, we should not conjecture too much about stars, birds and fish. These are a digression, as we can know nothing about those kinds of being; human suffering is mysterious enough.

ICXC NIKA
 
I contend that suffering is simply a consequence of being alive for any length of time.

John
 
Rhubarb said:
I guess that depends on your definition of useful purpose.

I suppose in one sense, yes. Pain tells us when something is wrong. Even minor paper cuts and charlie horses are reporting SOMETHING is amiss.

In another sense, I don’t know if emotional pain is always useful. I don’t know if that tells us something is wrong in the same way. Maybe it does but I’d have to think about it some more.

I think in another sense though, pain is quite pointless. This toothache I’ve got is pointing to a problem, yes. But I know this problem exists. Alas, until the next enrollment comes around I go without insurance so there’s nothing I can do but endure it. This is a contrived example though - I suspect cancer patients make a better example. Why must they endure these diseases? Why do their cells reproduce out of control and cause them such suffering? I mean, the pain of chemo therapy in the first sense tells us something is wrong: chemo therapy is literally poisoning yourself - something is wrong. But having to endure the therapy at all, is there a point to that?

Christianity gives us a point - we all have our crosses to bear. We can offer it up. But that leads to the problem of evil. I’m assuming most folks here are going to grant that pain isn’t always evil though. Or, to live in a world where pain is a thing we need. I tend to disagree.
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I agree that sometimes pain is pointless but it is a defence mechanism without which the body would be damaged or even destroyed.
 
Della said:
The phrase “snatched from the fire” does not refer to those in hell. Rather, it refers to those in danger of going there.
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If you follow the references given in the Bible, Zec and then Amos, there is question about this. Jude is the patron of hopeless cases. Only those in hell are hopeless? or so they think?
 
Sacred_Heart said:
All suffering is pointless and unnecessary. Take it from someone who suffers severe mental illness.
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This couldn’t be anymore innacurate for a Christian to say. We share in Christs suffering daily, each of us. It is meaningful beyond measure.
 
Michael19682 said:
He doesn’t “will” evil.
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True.
He merely proves not to stop it, and thereby proves that either we resist evil by prayer, or, if they are evil, they follow the sound of it.
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He does stop evil but we have to co-operate. Which is why prayer is so important, especially the Rosary!
 
friardchips said:
He does stop evil but we have to co-operate. Which is why prayer is so important, especially the Rosary!
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Thank you 🙂 friardchips for your response. My only legitimate response was happiness at your answer; and a renewed understanding that co-operate means for me to assent to his will for me as discerned in prayer. :):)🙂
Excuse the wordiness, I like restating things.
 
Michael19682 said:
Thank you 🙂 friardchips for your response. My only legitimate response was happiness at your answer; and a renewed understanding that co-operate means for me to assent to his will for me as discerned in prayer. :):)🙂
Excuse the wordiness, I like restating things.
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👍👍👍🙂
 
as Paul himself wrote, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit,

Rm 6:19
“I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your nature.”
 
oldcelt said:
Certainly not…happiness is possible even in the midst of suffering. They are not mutually exclusive.

John
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Using the Socratic method for a moment…would you also say that happiness is the consequence of being alive for any given length of time?
 
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