Is The ACLU A PAGAN GROUP?

[Brad]

Catholic2003, Penny_Plain, Sbcoral -

Is the following the type of country you want to live in? Support of taking anything Christian out of the public square is a few short steps away from what happens in other countries:

**China: Executed for Distributing Bibles
Brought to you by The Voice of the Martyrs

When 34-year old Jiang Zongxiu went to her neighboring market last June in Guizhou Province, China. Along with her mother-in-law, Jiang went through the marketplace, taking opportunities to hand out Bibles and Christian literature and telling people about Jesus. Only this day they had an encounter with the Chinese police.

The two Christian women were handcuffed together and brought to the police station. They were interrogated throughout the evening of the 17th. The next morning they were sentenced by the Public Security Bureau (PSB) to 15 days incarceration for “suspected spreading of rumor and disturbing the social order.”

Jiang and her mother-in-law knew the risk of spreading Christian literature in communist China. Both had been active in their church for more than 10 years and dared to go forth. Even when they were arrested, interrogated and sentenced to serve 15 days, they were willing to accept the consequences of their actions—all from a government that claims to have “freedom of religion.”

But it was not enough for the PSB to arrest and beat these two Christian women for the crime of passing our Christian literature. In the afternoon of June 18th, Mrs. Jiang Zongziu was pronounced dead by the PSB office of Tongzi County. They claimed she died of “natural causes.” The fact is she was beaten to death.

The Voice of the Martyrs has received video testimony from the surviving family, photos of Jiang body showing her bruised body, and a copy of the actual arrest document. All of this had to be smuggled out of China as the authorities continue to attempt to hide their systematic persecution of Christians. An international campaign is now under way on behalf of the surviving family.

Much of the world would like you to believe Christians are no longer persecuted. Sister Jiang’s family would disagree. Now you can stay informed of what is really happening to your Christian brothers and sisters in countries like China and even discover practical ways to help, with a FREE subscription to The Voice of the Martyrs monthly newsletter. Don’t turn your back on today’s persecuted church. Subscribe today.**

 

[Catholic2003]

Lisa N:

The right to legal counsel on the taxpayer’s nickel is limited to criminal cases. I understand the case against NAMBLA is a civil case.

NAMBLA has access to legal representation. They can PAY for it like the rest of us do when we are involved in a civil matter. That the ACLU is offering free counsel to a group that promotes illegal activities, seems a bit peculiar if you maintain its mission is upholding our laws. I believe they are offering this protection because they support homosexual agenda and the normalization of homosexual activities. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. The ACLU is a private organization, not a branch of the U.S. government funded by taxpayer dollars. And if they believe that the right to legal representation extends to all people and organizations, not just the rich ones, does that make them Satanic? And if New Jersey passes a law requiring public accomodations to accept homosexuals, and the ACLU wants to see the laws enforced, isn’t it really the New Jersey legislature that is supporting the “homosexual agenda” and the normalization of homosexual activities? I guess the ACLU is just easier to hate.

I’m pretty sure the Republican opposition to the ACLU is based on their opposition to administration efforts to take away our civil liberties by starting with suspected terrorists. Ever notice how if you call someone a “terrorist” or an “insurgent”, it makes it okay to do whatever you want to him? And if anyone disagrees, they are accused of supporting terrorism by the Republican thought police. Now that is the “agenda” that I am really worried about.

I just wish people wouldn’t take this Republican agenda and attempt to portray it as a Catholic one. It’s a big stumbling block to those who would be Catholic but who understand the importance of civil liberties. And you know what Jesus said about being a stumbling block!

 

[Brad]

Penny Plain:

I have edited and numbered your post to make responding easier.

1. Depending on the circumstances, yeah. I don’t want the little booger coming into my living room and singing it. I don’t want him doing it in the middle of the expressway at rush hour. And I don’t want him using my tax dollars to do it at school.

The “little booger”? I think I’m starting to understand where you are coming from.
Penny Plain:

1. I am not a US citizen, although I do pay US income taxes (yuck). Of course I do not agree with where my money goes. However, the government gives money to religious organizations, including Catholic ones, and it apparently is interested in faith-based solutions to stuff. I don’t see how you limit it to one faith.

Wait a minute. Now you are saying it is ok to sing Christmas songs as long as Hanukkah and other faith songs are represented? I agree with that position but that is not the position you have been taking.
Penny Plain:

1. But we’re forced to pay for it, even if my kids don’t go to public schools for part of the year either.

Why is that a problem? You just said it was ok you are forced to support other religous groups with your tax dollars in #2.
Penny Plain:

1. I have no idea what this means.

All names listed have Jewish or Christian origin. The very name of someone (I know several John Pauls) is a promotion of their religion in many cases. The ACLU would be against a teacher wearing an “I love Jesus” shirt. For consistency, shouldn’t they be against someone being called by a Christian name? That gives validation to the name and the faith in a public place.
Penny Plain:

1. I do not support their right to act out deviant behavior. I do support their right to talk about it, because I believe that stupid, evil, and repellent ideas die when they’re exposed to criticism and public dialogue.

Why should we wait for general public criticism when this type of behavior has been universally condemned forever and the people that support it must have some type of psychological deficiency?
Do you not think that anyone in NAMBLA has acted out on this depraved fantasy as a result of association with the group? Is this not a violation of the victim’s rights - for the rest of their life?
Penny Plain:

1. I don’t know if they could or not. It might depend on whether what they said was true. If somebody hated me enough to spend that sort of money, I’d be very surprised. You volunteering? I can give you a list of potential contributors.

You might be surprised but that is not what I asked. I asked whether you thought this should be legal. I am not volunteering. I am a Christian.

 

[Brad]

Penny Plain:

No, I am not. I think the Boy Scouts can exclude homosexuals if they want to.

Good. Then you are opposed to the ACLU’s efforts to require them to accept homosexuals as leaders? You think the ACLU is violating the BSA’s freedom by taking action against them - correct?

 

[Brad]

fix:

Because their goal is not to advance authentic rights, but to limit Christianity and advance moral relativism under the guise of supporting the constitution. Their agenda is transparent. They have a tremendous dislike for Christians.

Apparently it’s not that transparent to some Catholics.

 

[Catholic2003]

Brad:

Is the following the type of country you want to live in? Support of taking anything Christian out of the public square is a few short steps away from what happens in other countries:

So you are saying that the Chinese government shows what happens when a country lets civil liberties grow too powerful, and if we don’t stop the ACLU from defending our civil liberties, we’re going to end up just like China?

I’m sorry, but China is the exact opposite of the U.S. as regards civil liberties. Your news item is a perfect example of the horrors that occur when the government is given the power to determine what religion citizens are allowed to practice. This is the very same thing that the Detriot judge did to the Catholic man, and the very same thing that the ACLU is pledged to fighting.

Really, if you are going to pick another country to show what can happen when there are too many civil liberties, try Sweden.

 

[Brad]

Penny Plain:

Well, Brad, that’s not what I suggested in the other thread, and you know that perfectly well. Are you just making things up, now?

The point of your post, as I understood it, was to (using irony and other techniques) point out that many good practices in daily life are consistent with Christian principles.

No kidding.

Great - we are making progress. Now you are also opposed to the ACLU’s efforts to ban people from saying “Merry Christmas” in public schools. We agree again.

You are partially correct about the point of my post. Not only are the good practices consistent with Christian principles, a good many of us have been shaped by these good principles by Christianity. As a result (if we are following what we have been taught) we are walking and talking promoters of Christianity simply by living our daily lives. It is even MORE of a promotion that blindly singing “Silent Night” as part of a school program.
We have the right to promote religion all over Amercia - that is what makes the Constitution and our Delcaration of Independence so great - all of us have been given inalienable rights by our creator, says the D of I - we are free from oppression of religion - that is what the Europeans escaped from - people were put in jail and killed for refusing to belong to the Church of England.

I’d say the ACLU causing a poor bus driver to lose her job because she suggested to children that embryonic stem cell research has shown no medical progress is a lot closer to religious persecution than parents having to listen to schoolchildren sing “Away in a Manger”.

Christianity is a part of me. If I were to slip out a “Merry Christmas” or a “Praise the Lord” or a “Thank God” in a public place, it would simply be a part of who I am. For anyone to restrict such speech in public is an infringement on more than my right to speech - it takes away who I am. Heck, I might even want to pray at lunch and read the Bible in study hall. If I can’t then my freedoms are being trampled upon.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Brad:

Good. Then you are opposed to the ACLU’s efforts to require them to accept homosexuals as leaders? You think the ACLU is violating the BSA’s freedom by taking action against them - correct?

“Violating the BSA’s freedom”? No. I believe the ACLU has a perfect right to help somebody bring this lawsuit if it wants to.

It is not a position that I agree with, although I see the arguments for both sides.

 

[Brad]

Penny Plain:

Don’t the parents of Christian children have the right to opt them out of those programs anyway?

Apparently you haven’t been exposed to the kindergarten homosexual indoctrination in California.

.
Penny Plain:

I’m a good Catholic and a taxpayer. The ACLU is anti-Catholic because they don’t send somebody to change my tyres when I have a flat.

I know you are not American - is that why you chose a foreign language for the above statment?

 

[Penny_Plain]

Brad:

Great - we are making progress. Now you are also opposed to the ACLU’s efforts to ban people from saying “Merry Christmas” in public schools. We agree again.

You are partially correct about the point of my post. Not only are the good practices consistent with Christian principles, a good many of us have been shaped by these good principles by Christianity. As a result (if we are following what we have been taught) we are walking and talking promoters of Christianity simply by living our daily lives. It is even MORE of a promotion that blindly singing “Silent Night” as part of a school program.
We have the right to promote religion all over Amercia - that is what makes the Constitution and our Delcaration of Independence so great - all of us have been given inalienable rights by our creator, says the D of I - we are free from oppression of religion - that is what the Europeans escaped from - people were put in jail and killed for refusing to belong to the Church of England.

I’d say the ACLU causing a poor bus driver to lose her job because she suggested to children that embryonic stem cell research has shown no medical progress is a lot closer to religious persecution than parents having to listen to schoolchildren sing “Away in a Manger”.

Christianity is a part of me. If I were to slip out a “Merry Christmas” or a “Praise the Lord” or a “Thank God” in a public place, it would simply be a part of who I am. For anyone to restrict such speech in public is an infringement on more than my right to speech - it takes away who I am. Heck, I might even want to pray at lunch and read the Bible in study hall. If I can’t then my freedoms are being trampled upon.

I don’t think it’s illegal to pray at lunch – silently – or read the Bible in study hall – silently. I think it is obnoxious, inappropriate, and wrong for public employees such as bus drivers to subject students to their religious views.

You do not have the right to promote religion “all over America,” Brad. A basic example or two: you do not have the right to promote it in my living room, or in the middle of a symphony concert.

And if “who you are” is dependent on your ability to wish somebody a merry Christmas, then you need to work on your self image.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Brad:

The “little booger”? I think I’m starting to understand where you are coming from.

I picked this phrase up from my husband, who is from Corpus Christi, Texas. It is a term of affection.

 

[Brad]

Catholic2003:

I just wish people wouldn’t take this Republican agenda and attempt to portray it as a Catholic one. It’s a big stumbling block to those who would be Catholic but who understand the importance of civil liberties. And you know what Jesus said about being a stumbling block!

It is completely preposterous for you to accuse good Catholics of acting solely on a Republican agenda when we oppose the ACLU for being anti-Christian.

My stance has NOTHING to do with politics and EVERYTHING to do with my Caholic faith. Jesus mandated us to spread the Gospel and the ACLU works feverishly to shut us up when we try to bring the message of God’s goodness to schoolchildren.

Opposition to God is a CATHOLIC issue my friend. It’s not my fault the Democrats decided to lie in bed with feminists, atheists, homosexuals, abortionists and pornography peddlers. Good gracious sakes - How can you support a party that makes GOBS of money from their ties to murder(abortion, embryonic stem-cell research), depraved lust(homosexuality and pornography), modifying scripture and sacred tradition(feminists), and pride(atheism).

Every Catholic Democratic Senator makes personal dollars by supporting abortion in all its forms. They may take the “I’m personally opposed” positon but if they were really personally opposed, would they tell the NARAL that they take pride in supporting them and accept their blood money?

The positions against the ACLU and liberalism is one that is wholly and completely consistent with the Gospel of Jesus Christ - it has nothing to do with Republicans.

 

[Trelow]

Penny Plain:

I don’t think it’s illegal to pray at lunch – silently – or read the Bible in study hall – silently. I think it is obnoxious, inappropriate, and wrong for public employees such as bus drivers to subject students to their religious views.

embryonic stem cell research has shown no medical progress
And this is a religious view how?
Penny Plain:

And if “who you are” is dependent on your ability to wish somebody a merry Christmas, then you need to work on your self image.

So as a Christian “if who you are” is dependent on acting as a Christian, then you need to work on your self image?

I thought you admitted defeat already?

 

[Brad]

Catholic2003:

So you are saying that the Chinese government shows what happens when a country lets civil liberties grow too powerful, and if we don’t stop the ACLU from defending our civil liberties, we’re going to end up just like China?

I’m sorry, but China is the exact opposite of the U.S. as regards civil liberties. Your news item is a perfect example of the horrors that occur when the government is given the power to determine what religion citizens are allowed to practice. This is the very same thing that the Detriot judge did to the Catholic man, and the very same thing that the ACLU is pledged to fighting.

Nope. I’m saying teh Chines government is a good example of what happens when good people say nothing when their rights are taken away (10 commandments, prayer in schools etc.) You still say the ACLU (I guess because of their name and your sympathetic postion to all things legal) is a protector of rights.
I disagree (again). I say they lobby to eliminate rights.

You cannot see the parallel between disallowing prayer in school (to the point where you are expelled if you violate the “law”) and someone being imprisoned for evangelizing on a public road?

It is not thinking that this is possible that leads to Chinese and Soviet Union governments. Study what happened to the Church in Germany in the early 20th century. Hitler didn’t start out that bad - he just started taking away some Christian things here and some Jewish things there. No big deal. No harm no foul. A lot of Catholics weren’t affected. Hey, some Catholics were never affected.

Catholic2003:

Really, if you are going to pick another country to show what can happen when there are too many civil liberties, try Sweden.

Good example. Sweden is ripe for a Socialistic, Marxist takeover - many already subscribe to the ideology. They just haven’t lived under totalitarianism for 25 years to know how bad it really is.

 

[Brad]

“Violating the BSA’s freedom”? No. I believe the ACLU has a perfect right to help somebody bring this lawsuit if it wants to.

It is not a position that I agree with, although I see the arguments for both sides.

Bringing the lawsuit is not assisting someone in taking away the BSA’s freedom? If you don’t agree with the position, then you oppose the ACLU’s support of the position - no? You can choose to support the ACLU’s right to exist - so do I - but I oppose them in this case - I take the BSA’s side. Likewise, I take the schools side when they are sued because of Christmas songs. This is called conviction of your postion. It’s important for a lawyer as well as anyone else.

I see the arguments from both sides too. The BSA does not want someone from the outside redefining their organization. The “somebody” is attempting to redefine their organization against their will. The ACLU is helping the “somebody”. That’s ok with you? Would you support the ACLU if I sued your family to require a convicted child-molester to be your family’s nanny and the ACLU took the case.

The ACLU is causing me to lose my money that I gave to the BSA because now the BSA has to defend itself from a frivilous, money-seeking lawsuit. That’s ok with you?

 

[Penny_Plain]

Brad:

Bringing the lawsuit is not assisting someone in taking away the BSA’s freedom? If you don’t agree with the position, then you oppose the ACLU’s support of the position - no? You can choose to support the ACLU’s right to exist - so do I - but I oppose them in this case - I take the BSA’s side. Likewise, I take the schools side when they are sued because of Christmas songs. This is called conviction of your postion. It’s important for a lawyer as well as anyone else.

I see the arguments from both sides too. The BSA does not want someone from the outside redefining their organization. The “somebody” is attempting to redefine their organization against their will. The ACLU is helping the “somebody”. That’s ok with you? Would you support the ACLU if I sued your family to require a convicted child-molester to be your family’s nanny and the ACLU took the case.

The ACLU is causing me to lose my money that I gave to the BSA because now the BSA has to defend itself from a frivilous, money-seeking lawsuit. That’s ok with you?

Brad, I hate to say this, but the ultimate fate of your money is not high on my list of concerns. The American legal system allows people to sue other people; life goes on. The court will determine whether the lawsuit is frivolous or not.

Your example does not seem to me like the sort of case the ACLU would take.

I am glad you have “conviction of your position,” whatever that is. It seems to make you so happy…

 

[Brad]

Penny Plain:

I don’t think it’s illegal to pray at lunch – silently – or read the Bible in study hall – silently. I think it is obnoxious, inappropriate, and wrong for public employees such as bus drivers to subject students to their religious views.

Round and round we go - where we stop - only God knows.

How can the bus driver say “you shouldn’t fight with one another”? any more than “there hasn’t been any medical success in embryonic stem cell research”. Is it obnoxious to state facts in public?
Penny Plain:

You do not have the right to promote religion “all over America,” Brad. A basic example or two: you do not have the right to promote it in my living room, or in the middle of a symphony concert.

I don’t want to preach in your living room if you won’t let me. Nor do I want to do it in the middle of a symphony concert or math class. I want the right to use a public school (for which I support with my tax dollars) to have a bible study class. The ACLU is opposed to this.
Penny Plain:

And if “who you are” is dependent on your ability to wish somebody a merry Christmas, then you need to work on your self image.

My self image is quite all right thank you. I know I was made in the image and likeness of God, so I feel quite ok about me. You were too. How do you feel about you? You think this would be a good thing to tell impressionable youngsters or, as you might call them “little boogers”? Perhaps there would be more peace and love in the world if they understood this.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Brad:

Round and round we go - where we stop - only God knows.

You know what? Here’s good.

 

[Brad]

Penny Plain:

Brad, I hate to say this, but the ultimate fate of your money is not high on my list of concerns. The American legal system allows people to sue other people; life goes on. The court will determine whether the lawsuit is frivolous or not.

I see. You are only adament about your tax dollars not going to support Christian carols in schools (I thought you were Christian?). All this time, I thought you were sticking up for a Hindu parent’s tax dollars. Silly me.
Penny Plain:

Your example does not seem to me like the sort of case the ACLU would take.

I wasn’t asking for you analysis on the probability of the hypothetical. I was asking whether you would oppose the ACLU if they took the side of the child molestor. You can’t dodge the question because you don’t think it would happen. I’m measuring the depth of your conviction.
Penny Plain:

I am glad you have “conviction of your position,” whatever that is. It seems to make you so happy…

This is scary Penny. You may make it into the chapter of my book which will be titled (the chapter) “The Death of Conviction.”

Conviction is what built the Church through the conviction of martyres that gave up their blood for the faith.

Convictions is what built the United States through the conviction of freedom-seeking revolutionaries that frequently risked life to create a country free of economic and religious persecution.

Without conviction of position, none of us would be talking here.

 

[Brad]

Penny Plain:

You know what? Here’s good.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: