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fix
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Yes, authentic freedom is not license. The ACLU has a definite anti Christian agenda.
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Scott_Lafrance
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Amen. Authentic freedom is always tempered with responsibility, which is a quality the ACLU is sorely lacking.
And do you mean to tell me that if I got a group of people together and advocated the establishment of human sacrifice as an expression of a quazi-religious belief? Isn’t it my right to express my religion by taking the life of another person, as long as that person consents to being sacrificed?
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fix
Guest
We do not know what authentic freedom is and we do not know what authentic rights are either. Everything is a right to most people. They think they have a right to perversion, baby murder, to say anything they want, etc. We only have a right to do what is good.
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JKirkLVNV
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Lisa N:
I frankly think MOST of the ACLU’s little cursades are ridiculous, though they’ve had a few free speech victories that they deserve. BY AND LARGE, the vendetta against the BSA is absurd. However, BSA support by outside monies (from the government OR from United Way) poses a problem for me because it would tend support religious beliefs with which I, as a Catholic, do not agree (I was a Boy Scout). The BSA is enormously popular with the Mormon church. I don’t want any of my money given over to support in any way the futherance of their teachings, either in an overtly doctrinal manner or in a mere “atmospheric” manner. Better that the BSA be sponsored/supported by the Church or the other churches or ecclesiastical communities and their own fund-raising activities. My mother paid my way (single working mom, 3 sons, a reluctant ex-husband who got off cheap on child support). This is also why I’m a little leery of the “faith based initiative” agendas. I’ve no doubt that they are better able to serve the needs of their communities (the same thing could be accomplished through block grants to local governments/organizations, etc.), but I don’t trust all of them to keep it doctrine free. Our tax money might go to support the propagation of ideas that are not merely heresy, but also vitrolically anti-Catholic. At least with the United Way, I am able to select the org. that alone gets my cash (Catholic Charities of Southern Nevada) and can specifically exclude others if I don’t have a specific preference for who should get the cash. You can exclude by name and code groups like Planned Parenthood.
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sbcoral
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People in the United States have the right to think whatever they want. George Bush always talks about the “enemies of freedom,” and this is one of those freedoms that makes it great to live in our country. Don’t be an enemy of freedom, Brad.
There’s nothing socialistic about the ACLU. Where did you get that. As I mentioned above, they have defended the rights of pro-life protesters in the past. They don’t necessarily support the message of Nazis, or NAMBLA, or pro-lifers, but they do adamantly support the rights of everyone guaranteed by our Constitution.
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sbcoral
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Our Constitution guarantees us certain rights, and the ACLU does what it can to protect those rights, even for people and groups that we find repugnant.
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sbcoral
Guest
Yes, Scott Lafrance, you do have that right to form that group if you want. You’re not allowed to sacrifice humans, because it’s against the law, but if you want to right an essay about how useful that would be, or start a website or get together a group of like-thinking people to promote decriminalization of human sacrifice, you have every right to do that. And the ACLU would defend your right to do that.
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fix
Guest
All authentic rights come from the creator, man can’t invent a right. The ACLU is an organization bent on eliminating, or severly limiting, Christianity. They do not understand authentic freedom or authentic rights.
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sbcoral
Guest
What are you talking about?
The ACLU defends our civil liberties promised by the Constitution, and that is the issue, Fix, not theology.
There is no evidence that the ACLU is intent on destroying Christianity. It does take many positions that are not popular with the narrow-thinking, conservative Christian crowd, but it has no mission beyond protecting our civil liberties. Get a grip.
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Catholic2003
Guest
A good example of this is the Inner City Christian Outreach Residential Program from my post #79, which required Catholics to give up their rosaries and be saved before they could pass the drug treatment program. It’s a good thing there is a civil liberties organization to fight stuff like this!
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Lisa_N
Guest
RTL is NOT a direct parallel to NAMBLA. Not even close. Now you might find a more direct parallel to one of the very radical prolife groups that published abortion doctors’ phone #s on their website. Although they were not saying 'visit these guys at their homes, harrass them, shoot them…" the message was clear that they advocated direct action rather than working through channels to change the laws as does RTL.
Similarly the head of some kind of Aryan Nation/Neo Nazi group WAS held responsible for the actions of his followers who murdered an Ethiopain man, Mulagetta Suraw here in Portland. Although the leader of the group never saw the man, never arranged for the killing and in fact did not OVERTLY condone violence in his propaganda, the courts decided his philosophies were enough to hold him responsible. I see a direct connection between THIS case and the NAMBLA case you cited.
A group can be found responsible for the actions of its followers. Although certainly the NAMBLA website does not say “Go out and find little boys to molest and kill” their website is FULL of “testimonials” from little boys who CLAIM that the forty year old pervert they met is the ‘best thing that happened to me.’ Not a real stretch here to claim that the men who molested the boy were only trying to ‘do him a favor.’
All I can say is EEEEEEEEWWWWWWW this group is beyond redemption.
Lisa N
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fix
Guest
What are YOU talking about? Theology is not the issue. Truth is the issue. Rights come from the creator, not men. That is true, no matter what one believes or does not believe. The founders of this country understood that much.
The ACLU takes many positions that are at odds with the truth and with right reason. The immoral left wing accepts most of their propaganda because they too have poorly formed consciences. It is easy to see their point of view; they are rigid moral relativists.
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Catholic2003
Guest
It is true that the ACLU doesn’t understand authentic freedom or authentic rights; this is why they are on the wrong side of the abortion issue.
However, my impression going into this discussion was what sbcoral has said – that the focus of the ACLU is to fight for the civil liberties guaranteed to all citizens by the U.S. constitution. And nothing I’ve read here has changed my impression.
In theory, non-Christians are not second-class citizens in our country. The Ten Commandments do not be long in a courthouse that supposedly guarantees justice to all, any more than an excerpt of the Koran belongs there. And when a judge is told to remove them, he has no business disobeying. You would think a judge would understand the concept of “contempt of court”.
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sbcoral
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Lisa N:
I don’t know about the Aryan Nation case. I agree with “ewww,” too, and don’t even want to look at NAMBLA’s website. But I think the ACLU did the right, if very unpopular, thing in defending the group, based on my understanding of the case.
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sbcoral
Guest
The ACLU defends our civil liberties promised by Constitution, and that’s all. Sorry it’s not more than that.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
Yes, and the US government should be in the business of deermining what the Truth and Right Reason are? From what I know of the ACLU, it generally takes the position that expression of all ideas is entitled to protection, even repellent ones, so people can decide for themselves what to believe.
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Lisa_N
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Lisa_N
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OK so tell me exactly what civil liberties are being thwarted by the Boy Scouts? They do not have to believe in God, as we Christians perceive God. They pledge to maintain morally straight behavior. Anything wrong with that? If you don’t want to be “morally straight” OK, you probably wouldn’t be a very good Boy Scout.
So tell me about that TINY cross on the seal of LA? Look at the copies of the seal as Gilliam posted. What do you notice. The HUGE Roman goddess in the middle or the tiny cross on one side? What possible REAL civil liberty is being infringed? Before you answer, the Constitution does not have any legal right never to be offended by anyone or anything.
I agree with the premise that people can express ideas, however repugnant. I don’t agree with the KKK either but if they want to dress up in bedsheets and walk down the streets looking like nitwits, well they are welcome to do so. But where I disagree with the ACLU is their picking and choosing and an apparent agenda with respect to radical homosexual activists. If I saw any real balance in their approach I’d have a different impression. But saying they protect “all” of our rights is like saying PBS is balanced news coverage. (And they get govt money!)
Lisa N
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gilliam
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Penny Plain:
The position the ACLU takes (you only have to review their case load to realize this) is that if it is a case attacking Christian values, or supporting hedonistic, atheistic or socialistic values, then they will take it. Otherwise, they will be on the other side.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
I will take your word for it, Gilliam. I am sure you know more about it than I do. However, those expressions generally seem to be the ones that the narrow-minded and intolerant are trying to shut down, so they are the ones that need protection.
Don’t get me wrong: I think the world would be a much better place if NAMBLA and all its members fell into a cave and never came out. BUT they have a right to express their opinions, even if those opinions are depraved. I do not want the government deciding which opinions are licit and which ones are not because tomorrow it may decide that mine are illicit.
I also do not want it deciding which religions it should support or oppose because tomorrow it might decide to oppose mine.
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