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Trelow
Guest
No, the best solution is to evangelize everybody so everybody is Christian.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
I’m trying to take your rights away? Lighten up.
BUT you also have no right to take it away from others, which is what that whole “free speech” business in your Constitution is about. That law protects even speech that advocates for changes in current laws, like the speech that advocates for changes in the abortion laws.
You have no right to silence NAMBLA, depraved as they are (at least the ones who aren’t FBI agents…), just as the abortion providers have no right to silence you. You have to meet each other in the marketplace of ideas, and the people will choose what to do based on who makes the better case.
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Brad
Guest
Yeah - that’s great. Children killing children. Children raping children. Children killing themselves. Children killing their babies. Children getting STDs.
No promotion of religon - it’s done us good.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
You want the GOVERNMENT to do this? I can’t think of a more efficient way to turn us all into Buddhists in less than five years.
Your first amendment regulates governmental activity. The goverment can’t establish a religion. You, as individuals, can establish whatever religion you please. I nominate Catholicism.
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Brad
Guest
Penny Plain:
What is a group wanted to organize to libel you? What if they created websites, billboards, radio and TV advertisements that listed every bad thing you’ve ever done and every bad thing they think you might do - and promoted this concept to the entire nation. Would you want to stop them or would this be against their right to free speech?
What don’t you understand about free speech? My marketplace idea is that people that should not be allowed to promote child molestation and rape. That is my idea. I have a right to express it.
What is a group wanted to organize to libel you? What if they created websites, billboards, radio and TV advertisements that listed every bad thing you’ve ever done and every bad thing they think you might do - and promoted this concept to the entire nation. Would you want to stop them or would this be against their right to free speech?
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Penny_Plain
Guest
So the 10 Commandments are the basis for the laws of the US?
Please explain two things to me, a poor stupid foreigner:
- Where in the Constitution it says so; and
- How the First Commandment has been applied to US society in, well, ever.
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sbcoral
Guest
Your #2, at least, is a big error, here, Brad. The ACLU has never, ever done anything that has interfered with my ability to practice my Catholicism. Has it affected your ability? The ACLU, for the 100th time, only seeks to promote the religious civil liberty of all by opposing the promotion of a single religion by the government. That is all they do, friend, and they are no threat to our religion. We should be very glad that we have an organization like the ACLU here in our country. I think your religious zeal blinds you a little to the fact that not everyone believes the same as you and I, and not everyone wants to have our beliefs shoved in their face. Taking down nativity scenes in front of courthouses and prohibiting Christmas carols in public schools can seem at least trivial and at worst dangerous and hateful, but in the end these are necessary things if we want to maintain religious freedom for all in society. This, our ability to belief what we want, is what separates us from Saudi Arabia and all those other Muslim countries you love to hate, and if anything is what George W. Bush and our soldiers are fighting for right now. Don’t oppose them.
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sbcoral
Guest
OK, and let’s let the government do it for us.
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sbcoral
Guest
Is freedom of religion responsible for that? Let’s blame our Founding Fathers, then. What are you talking about, anyway?
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Brad
Guest
Penny Plain:
The foundation of a system is not the system. The constitution is the law - it is not it’s own foundation. The basis of this law has been written and spoken about in volumes of founding fathers data.
If you are interested in this, I will provide links later but have to run for now.
I would also ask you on what basis you would like your laws. Whatever Penny wants at the moment? What is your foundation going to be?
If you respond as if you read the entire post, including the part where I said nobody has ever been charged with not keeping the Lords’ day, then I will address your questions. Anyone can shoot holes in an argument - how about coming up with a good argument why someone cannot play a Christmas song in a school band. I’ve given you some good reasons why they should be able to.
The foundation of a system is not the system. The constitution is the law - it is not it’s own foundation. The basis of this law has been written and spoken about in volumes of founding fathers data.
If you are interested in this, I will provide links later but have to run for now.
I would also ask you on what basis you would like your laws. Whatever Penny wants at the moment? What is your foundation going to be?
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gilliam
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Penny Plain:
Thanks for the clarification. Remember, the people can ammend the Constitution (and has) when necessary. We do it through our representatives.
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Lisa_N
Guest
I think the basis was religious and certainly they recognize that there is a higher power and that higher power will help them overcome their addictions. As to sending athiests to other programs, well that’s interesting because I don’t know that you must prove a belief in God before attending AA. My late father was an alcoholic and joined AA in his seventies. He was clean and sober when he died (of lung cancer from yet another addiction smoking).
OTOH he was an avowed atheist and was extremely outspoken about it. When people asked me about my religious upbringing I said yes well I did hear the word “God” quite frequently, however it was always right before “Damn it.”
AA IS extremely effective, regardless of your belief system. If your wife is sending patients to other programs, I hope they have as good of a record or she is not doing those patients any favors by keeping them from coming into contact with her idea of a religion.
LIsa N
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Penny_Plain
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Temper, temper. I’ll settle for American laws based on the American Constitution, a document that appears to embrace religious pluralism. I still don’t understand why the founding fathers’ private lives and private writings have anything to do with what’s written in black and white.
Why can’t you play a Christmas song in a school band? Depends on whether we’re talking about a public school or a private school. Depends on whether we’re talking about “The First Noel” or “Frosty the Snowman.”
I would say you cannot play “The First Noel” in a public school Christmas concert because it deals specifically with a religious matter, and religious matters are not for the public schools.
If you don’t like it, form your own band, send your child to a private school, or wear a walkman and listen to music that you find more pleasing.
The fact that we’re having this conversation at all, Brad, shows that you place value on dialogue and the freedom of people to express differing views on topics that are important to society. That’s exactly what the ACLU does; you just denounce it because you don’t like the views it expresses.
I think the ACLU would be happy for you to do that, and they probably even would defend your right to call them a bunch of satanically inspired morons.
What a funny world we live in.
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Lisa_N
Guest
You know I often see this tactic when discussing issues with liberals. Instead of being reasonable, they will immediately come up with some kind of outrageous example that totally negates any value in their argument.
I don’t see anyone here suggesting that there be a Christian Taliban. I do see reasonable people suggesting that if someone says “Merry Christmas” it should not be considered prejudicial to people who are not Christians. We have a very diverse society and as such we all have to give a little here and there. I am not offended if my friend’s Jewish husband wishes me a wonderful Shabas. He knows I am not Jewish but he is sincerely trying to spread joy and good will. Similarly if the high school band plays Silent Night people need to get a grip. No one is going to be damaged playing a tune and if they have a reglious objection, well they can sit that number out. I used to take PE with a girl whose parents did not want her taking communal showers because they were from a very fundamentalist religious background. The school accommodated that request. It just isn’t that big a deal, to have to accommodate people here and there on "the small stuff.’
That we don’t want to give a LOT, i.e. approve of NAMBLA promoting perversion and illegal acts, does not make us impossible reactionaries who’d like to live in the first century. That’s where you totally lose me Catholic2003, you won’t even consider that there might be an agenda behind the ACLU’s activities and it’s not to protect my rights.
Lisa N
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
This bothers me and I think we need to start calling each other on this: This is OVERSTATEMENT! DRAMATIC OVERSTATEMENT!!!
We should discuss, opine, even argue, but we should do it like adults! This sounds like a high-brow version of responses I’ve heard my 4th grade students make to each other!
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Lisa_N
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Penny Plain:
I don’t believe someone has the right to force THEIR views on a private organization or be threatened with legal action by the ACLU. IOW were the BSA to embrace homosexuals and let the kids pledge to be morrally corrupt, I sincerely doubt if the ACLU would have the slightest interest in them.
Now before someone starts howling about the BSA’s use of public property, realize it IS available to the public. IOW our church group rented a private park for our summer picnic. We are clearly a RELIGIOUS group. So there should be no problem with the BSA using a public park. But in San Diego, they have been barred from using a public park…because they don’t support homosexuals.
Don’t you see the REAL agenda here? It’s not my rights or your rights they are worried about. They are trying to remove any impediments to a society that is hostile to organized religion so that the secularists and homosexual activists will have their own version of utopia.
Lisa N
OK Penny, do you think the same standard should apply to the Boy Scouts? IOW if you DONT believe in a higher power (however you might define it) and if you DONT want to pledge to remain morally straight then DONT join the Boy Scouts. IOW you are free not to join an organization that has a philosophy different than your own. I would defend that right wouldn’t you? Apparently that isn’t the ACLU’s opinion. They want to force the BSA to accept THEIR viewpoint on “a higher power” and on homosexuals. Since they do not they’ve been attacked relentlessly by the ACLU.
I don’t believe someone has the right to force THEIR views on a private organization or be threatened with legal action by the ACLU. IOW were the BSA to embrace homosexuals and let the kids pledge to be morrally corrupt, I sincerely doubt if the ACLU would have the slightest interest in them.
Now before someone starts howling about the BSA’s use of public property, realize it IS available to the public. IOW our church group rented a private park for our summer picnic. We are clearly a RELIGIOUS group. So there should be no problem with the BSA using a public park. But in San Diego, they have been barred from using a public park…because they don’t support homosexuals.
Don’t you see the REAL agenda here? It’s not my rights or your rights they are worried about. They are trying to remove any impediments to a society that is hostile to organized religion so that the secularists and homosexual activists will have their own version of utopia.
Lisa N
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Catholic2003
Guest
Lisa N:
It’s pretty hard to do steps 2 and 3 without having a belief in God. I suppose addicts could fake it, but what’s the point in going into a program if you don’t intend to follow it?
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Catholic2003
Guest
So I take it you would have no problem with changing the pledge to say “one Nation under Allah.” If not, then your post is nothing more than toothless bluster.
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Catholic2003
Guest
Lisa N:
My wife is Catholic; that is her idea of a religion. She is also a professional; she has a masters in substance-abuse counselling and is going back for her Ph.D. As far as recovery goes, there are dozens of programs, and a significant part of her job is finding the right program (or series of programs) for each client.
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Catholic2003
Guest
Let’s summarize. We have a Catholic who has two choices - renounce Catholicism, or go to jail. We have a group of people, the ACLU, who think this kind of thing is contrary to the First Amendment, and are fighting this situation in court.
On the other hand, we have a person whose hate of the ACLU is so strong that he cannot admit they are on the correct side of even a single issue, and thus supports the anti-Catholic treatment program. I assume that Brad is intelligent enough to realize threatening people with jail unless they renounce their religion is a violation of the First Amendment. Thus, I interpret his support of the program to be a desire to live in a country where the Constitution does not apply, and the government has every right to throw people in jail unless the espouse the “correct” religion. Is there some other analogy, other than a Christian Taliban, that would better represent such a government?
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