Is the Catholic Church Sexist?

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by Pound Coolish

Still, people talk of the NT and how it challenges the social norms of the time and here the most famous woman of the Church makes her mark in the Bible the exact same way the vast majority (not all, please don’t start siting exceptions) made their mark. By giving birth to a male. No challenge of ancient social norms there.

This comment made me think of St Anne, the mother of Mary. We don’t know much about her life, yet here she is, a silent figure, who gave birth to the woman, who would go on to give birth to the son of God.

Yes males have the priviledge in our church to rule it, that is clear.

 

[7_Sorrows]

No.

 

[roseofshannon]

You sincerely think motherhood makes women’s rights proportionate to those of men? Feeding children? Sincerely?

As for men doing the heavy work, that work happens to include the corporate world and the entire economy, choosing when to fight wars, and thus far, running the country. All rather powerful positions. Yes, we do do a lot of the heavy work, and women have fought for centuries to have their share in that heavy work.

Power?

The hand that rocks the cradle…rules the world!

Mary didn’t just feed, Jesus. She educated Him.

She was educated in the temple from a very young age and had memorized the Scriptures which she taught to Jesus.

This is why her lap is referred to as the Seat of Wisdom.

God, the all powerful creator of the universe, put His only Son in her hands.

She could have taught Him to love money, power and warfare. She could have taught Him Satanic rituals. She could have taught Him to hate certain races. She could have taught Him to hate women. She could have beat Him, neglected Him, even sexually abused Him or secretly kill Him.

She was given complete power over God!

Mom’s don’t just birth and feed and scrub floors.

They form consciences. Consciences are what create History. Behind every great man is a great woman.

They create and form souls which last for all eternity.

Doctors can save a life (temporarily) but it will eventually end. Only a Mom can give someone their life. That’s an ETERNAL gift. It never ends.

The whole human race depends on women and their sacrificial love.

There are over 10,000 named Saints, but there are many, many more that are unnamed and never canonized.

A real Saint would prefer to be unnamed. They would never seek glory for themselves. They would only want their story to be shared if it gave greater glory to God and not to themselves.

The good deeds Moms do are hidden in the home, so their rewards won’t be seen until Heaven as Jesus promised.

 

[Dorothy]

Power?

The hand that rocks the cradle…rules the world!

Mary didn’t just feed, Jesus. She educated Him.

She was educated in the temple from a very young age and had memorized the Scriptures which she taught to Jesus.

This is why her lap is referred to as the Seat of Wisdom.

God, the all powerful creator of the universe, put His only Son in her hands.

She could have taught Him to love money, power and warfare. She could have taught Him Satanic rituals. She could have taught Him to hate certain races. She could have taught Him to hate women. She could have beat Him, neglected Him, even sexually abused Him or secretly kill Him.

She was given complete power over God!

Mom’s don’t just birth and feed and scrub floors.

They form consciences. Consciences are what create History. Behind every great man is a great woman.

They create and form souls which last for all eternity.

Doctors can save a life (temporarily) but it will eventually end. Only a Mom can give someone their life. That’s an ETERNAL gift. It never ends.

The whole human race depends on women and their sacrificial love.

There are over 10,000 named Saints, but there are many, many more that are unnamed and never canonized.

A real Saint would prefer to be unnamed. They would never seek glory for themselves. They would only want their story to be shared if it gave greater glory to God and not to themselves.

The good deeds Moms do are hidden in the home, so their rewards won’t be seen until Heaven as Jesus promised.

Blessings to you for your excellent post!

 

[Usige]

Pound Coolish,
Unfortunately you seem to not have a very good understanding of the various roles in the Church. That comes across in some of the inaccuracies in some of your statements.

First, Deacons, Priests, Bishops and the Pope (who is a Bishop - the Bishop of Rome) make up one sacrament of Holy Orders. Each builds on the previous, so if a Deacon must be a male, then all other grades of Holy Orders must be also. The Church has time and time again stated why the priesthood is restricted to men; it is through Christ’s own actions. If you have an issue with priests, et cetera being male then you need to take your beef up with Christ. To say the Church is sexist because of who she ordains is to say Christ is sexist.

With regards to nuns, friars, monks and Holy Orders. Friars and monks do not always receive Holy Orders. Nuns, sisters, friars, monks, et cetera are religious which is completely separate from Holy Orders. Their purpose is to build up the storehouse of graces of the Church through prayers and good works. Religious women far out number religious men, so much of the storehouse of graces come from the prayers of these women. One of the most pious posters on this site, BrotherJR, is a religious brother, but he is not a cleric (i.e. received the sacrament of Holy Orders). He has as much (if not more) value to the life of the Church than a Deacon, Priest, or any other man in Holy Orders. The Church has always acknowledged the good of religious, so I would be very careful discounting the importance of nuns and religious sisters simply because they do not receive Holy Orders.

As for the disproportional numbers of male to female saints? We can’t change who was canonized in the past. The Church has canonized women since the earliest age of the Church and She has several Doctors of the Church that are female. St Teresa of Ávila is considered one of the greatest writers on prayer of all time and was canonized maybe 40 years after her death. At that time it would have been considered a very rapid canonization. Yes, the statistics show a disproportional number of male saints, but much of that can be attributed to the fact that many women in prior ages simply left no writings or other material for their cause for sainthood. One could say the same about the disproportional number of canonized religious to laity. It is not because there are more monks in heaven than laity, but rather the laity simply lead quieter lives. They are not out writing on religion or making news headlines because of their religious zeal. I suspect there are fewer canonized religious female saints simply because they spent more time praying and caring for others than they did writing books. If a person is not widely known, then there is a far smaller chance for a cultus to rise up and pray for their intercession. Without that there is no way for the Church to know if a person is in heaven or not.

It is really sad to me when people try to tear down the beauty of the Church because of political ideologies. Canonization is not a reward for a good life. Holy Orders is not a path to temporal power to be grasped at. We should live a life dedicated to serving Christ without an eye to being canonized. Those who dedicate their lives in religious life or Holy Orders should do so out of love for Christ and a desire to serve Him without looking for reward or recognition.

 

[tawny]

Have you ever been behind the scenes in a parish?
There is a high percentage of female parishioners there doing all the heavy lifting.

Women do most of the teaching, most of the liturgy planning, most of the cleaning, taking care of the things in the Sacristy, and sit on every single committee.
I WISH there were more men to pick up the slack. I long for male volunteers and (name removed by moderator)ut.
So do the priests.

So true.

 

[Stephen_says]

I think you bring up some valid concerns that many people today are facing…but that word “sexism” kind of grates on me, but I hope you understand, because I am a practicing Catholic, I do not enjoy confronting criticism of my Church, but such criticism is necessary sometimes.

I do not know the answer to the question that you’re asking. What I do know is that the sacred scriptures and the Catholic Church both understand men and women are inherently different. This understanding may be what has led to men being in more leadership roles, and women to be in more servile work (I hate to say it, because of the negative connotation “servant” has now days, but then I don’t, because Jesus himself said “If any man desire to be first, he shall be the last of all, and the servant of all” ).

That being said, I think that there is a necessary conversation to be had and a process of discernment to go through to learn what being a woman and being a servant of the church really mean.

I think the Catholic church, since it is run by humans, is prone to some non-doctrinal error, but I don’t think that the “sexism” of the past can be seen as wrong, unless you believe that all the Popes and Bishops and men of the past were purposefully flouting God in order to suppress women. I don’t believe that. I think men were honestly trying to follow God, and unfortunately, women wound up being less esteemed by the church, and that was sort of collateral damage.

I pray I expressed my thoughts sufficiently and faithfully. I would like to hear your response.

Pax

 

[misspriss]

Well, isn’t it rather sexist of us to assume that the role of motherhood is something inferior?

Isn’t it sexist of us to reduce being a mother to simply “being impregnated” and “giving birth”, rather than feeding, teaching, caring for and comforting that child until adulthood (and beyond)?

Isn’t it sexist of us to assume that “all” Mary did was give birth to Jesus, and forgetting how she: dedicated her life to serving God and her neighbours, enduring hostility and ostracism for her decision, going through extreme suffering as she witnessed her only son being tortured and killed, helping to form the early Church, dedicating her eternal life still to serving God and serving others as she intercedes for us on earth and in purgatory (even though, have you seen how people mock and ridicule her down here?), taking an even more active role by appearing to the saints and mystics throughout Church history…

Isn’t it rather that we assume that “all” Mary did was give birth and that’s it? There’s no other human person in history who has done more for God and humanity than she has.

 

[WJeffrey]

Church tradition has delineated the roles of men and women that have served for thousands of years. Each are beautiful. I am sure that many men may feel that it is sexist that they can’t participate in beauty of womanhood within the Church.

God made men and women different. These differences work together so that men and women compliment each other. If people outside, (or inside the Catholic community) perceive sexism, educate them. Neither gender is superior or inferior to the other. They are different. Celebrate the differences and the similarities.

 

[Entwhistler]

A note to several posters: no one argued Mary “just” did anything. The point is what she mainly remembered for. She figures in the Bible because she gave birth to and cared for Jesus. Very little else is mentioned. She is mentioned mainly insofar as she connected to the life of a male. Granted, a male who is Jesus, so it could be written off as a technicality. The fact remains, however. She is remembered for fulfilling the traditional gender role of giving birth. Please do not assume this is to say there is something wrong with motherhood. As stated in the topic statement, it is a job. It is also invaluable to society and a very precious, beautiful thing. Still, people talk of the NT and how it challenges the social norms of the time and here the most famous woman of the Church makes her mark in the Bible the exact same way the vast majority (not all, please don’t start siting exceptions) made their mark. By giving birth to a male. No challenge of ancient social norms there.

Giving birth to God is a pretty big deal. If any one of us here had anything to do with the birth of Our Lord that is probably all we would be remembered for. Just touching God is huge. Carrying Him inside you is unimaginable.

Besides, what’s so bad about having kids and being a mom? Since when has deciding when to kill people become superior to giving life? I think that what has confused the radical feminists is their views of what is most important. Money is not everything. Compared to a human life it is nothing.

If you’re talking about Mary giving birth to a man as sexist, maybe you should take that up with God. God could have challenged societal norms and come down to earth as a woman. But he didn’t.

 

[Nelka]

It’s not sexist.

Would you call Jesus sexist because he picked twelve men?

 

[WJeffrey]

It’s not sexist.

Would you call Jesus sexist because he picked twelve men?

I can picture Hillary Clinton and Debbie Wasserman Schultz doing this. They would probably ask why no one consulted Mitt Romney since he has a binder full of women.

 

[frizzgrig]

The Catholic Church is, officially, pro woman. It talks of how motherhood is beautiful and indeed a job. It endlessly honors our Blessed Mother in art. Still, the big-picture seems to be sexist. It is simply a matter of proportion. Individually, each case may have a very good theological or practical explanation. The problem is the over-all inequality.

The problem is you can not discount the valid reasons for each individual case. Taken all together it is easy to claim there is a bias one way or the other. A bias, a predisposition or propensity to select consciously or unconsciously a particular outcome, is not the result of well reasoned thoughts.

If a person was to list all the authors they said were their favorites, and the majority were male - does that mean the person is sexist? If they listed their favorite performers and the majority were male, does that make them sexist? If they list their friends and the majority are male, does that make them sexist? How about taken all together - is a person who’s favorite authors are majority male, their favorite performers are majority male, and the majority of their friends are male - is this person sexist?

You simply can not answer that question without examining the reason why the majority of these preferences are the way they are. To discount the reasons for the particular situation in each particular case is to declare there is some absolute measure that says a person, or organization must have an equal number of participants in every area of each sex and if a person or organization fails to have equal numbers of male and female people in each area they are sexist.

Is the Roman Catholic Church sexist? Is the Catholic Church in all 23 suri iuris churches (22 eastern rite and one western rite) sexist? Each person will have to decide this for themselves because it is largely a matter of opinion as there is no definitive objective definition of “sexist.”

If you go to a dictionary definition of sexist and apply it to each case you believe is evidence of the Catholic Church being sexist, I believe you find it harder to call the Catholic Church “sexist.” Look in the Code of Canon Law for the Churches. Excluding the Sacrament of Holy Orders, the overall attitude and treatment toward women is pretty much equal to the attitude and treatment toward men. (caveat - the Church is made up of individual people, and each individual person may or may not have a similar attitude and treatment toward others. The attitude and treatment from any one individual, cleric or lay person, is not an accurate measure of the Church.)

 

[twf]

OP: as others have noted you conflated some of the issues in your first post. Deacons, priests, bishops and certainly the pope, who is first among the bishops, should be seen as a single category: ordained clergy who have received the sacrament of holy orders. It’s just different degrees. Consecrated life is a completely separate category with many variations, some for just one sex and some for both. Among the vocations to consecrated life that are strictly for women we have consecrated virgins, religious sisters, and nuns. (No they are not the same- nuns are in solemn vows and often cloistered, while sisters are in simple vows and often active in the world). Friars and monks are two variations of consecrated life for males, some of whom MAY also receive holy orders.
Historically women religious, certain great abbesses, have commanded both men and women. St Hilda of Whitby was a 7th century abbess who ruled a house of nuns and a house of monks.

Then there’s soft power. Who has more real power in the Church? The bishop of a small Midwestern city or someone like Mother Angelica who’s network (EWTN) reached the whole world, who rebuked bishops with righteous fury, who founded orders of both female and MALE religious, all who honoured her as Mother.

I would, of course, agree that historically society, and thus sinful human beings who make up the Church, often had sexist views. Thus people may have been more likely to move forward the causes of male saints than women. This, thankfully, is no longer the case.

 

[TomFromMD]

First, let’s examine the roles we allot to men as opposed to women. Only men are allowed to be priests. (Again, we are not here considering the reasoning of each individual case. Only the overall resulting disproportion.) Only men can be bishops. I assume only men can be popes. It is not the in Cathecism to my memory, it seems to simply be assumed that a woman cannot lead the church. Only men can be deacons. Only men can be be friars. Only men can be monks. In fact, only men can join Holy Orders at all in any form.

Bishops are priests, and the Pope is a bishop. Friars and monks (which is somewhat redundant in that friars are a subset of monks) don’t receive holy orders (unless they happen to be priests or permanent deacons as well). Nuns are an analog. There are Trappist sisters, just as there are Trappist brothers. There are Dominican sisters, just as there are Dominican brothers.

 

[Dorothy]

All of us, male and female, need to concern ourselves primarily with allowing our Lord Jesus Christ to sanctify us. And, our Blessed Mother Mary is a great gift to us from Jesus, given to us at the foot of the cross.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Since the earliest of days in the Church there has been sexism. Let’s not pretend otherwise. For centuries women were considered property. When Jesus chose the 12 men he knew the dangers they would be facing even as men. Choosing to send women to travel and preach was unthinkable for that time and culture. And yet some remarkable women did wield influence in spite of the institutional sexism.

 

[jilly4ski]

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Since the earliest of days in the Church there has been sexism. Let’s not pretend otherwise. For centuries women were considered property. When Jesus chose the 12 men he knew the dangers they would be facing even as men. Choosing to send women to travel and preach was unthinkable for that time and culture. And yet some remarkable women did wield influence in spite of the institutional sexism.

LOL, “institutional sexism.” You realize that the Romans and other pagan cultures had female priestesses (for their female gods), so it wouldn’t have been very strange for Christians to do the same.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Please put it in the proper context then.

 

[HelenRose]

LOL, “institutional sexism.” You realize that the Romans and other pagan cultures had female priestesses (for their female gods), so it wouldn’t have been very strange for Christians to do the same.

Not only that. The Church Herself is feminine. We refer to the Church as the spouse of Christ.

She is beautiful indeed.

(I really try to avoid the “The Church is Sexist” argument but sometimes I get so tired of the clichés that are hurled at Her, that I jump in)