Is the CCC a rule or a suggestion or?

[fix]

mikew262:

See my post above. Post#76.

It may be we are misunderstanding each other.

 

[mikew262]

fix:

All that are saved are saved through the Catholic Church whether they know it or not.

I disagree. You are saying all non-catholic Christians are condemned. How arrogant and presumptous!

 

[fix]

mikew262:

I disagree. You are saying all non-catholic Christians are condemned. How arrogant and presumptous!

No, that is not what I am saying.

 

[mikew262]

fix:

It may be we are misunderstanding each other.

I hope so. If I misread or misunderstood your post, I apologize.

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

I’ll do better than that, I’ll give you a biblical one, which shows clearly that non-catholic Christians can be saved.

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).

While the Catholic Church claims there is no salvation outside the church, it also makes no presumption who will be in heaven and who won’t be. Since the Church doesn’t make this presumption, you shouldn’t either.

You just worry about how you’ll get to heaven; that’s enough worry for any of us.

As a Catholic I do worry about others. Where I can I spread the Gospel as Jesus commanded. However, I cannot twist anyone’s arm, but I can educate.

Lifting one Bible verse is not enough.

I’ll give you a few:

The Church must be one
Jn 10:16 - there will be one fold and one shepherd.
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
1Cor 1:10 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
1Cor 12:13 - in one spirit we are baptized into one body
Rom 12:5 - we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to be one hope
Col 3:15 - the peace into which you were called in one body
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church (singular)
Mt 18:17 - tell it to THE Church; if he refuses to listen even to THE Church… (must be visible)

then:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
338 AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

 

[mikew262]

buffalo:

As a Catholic I do worry about others. Where I can I spread the Gospel as Jesus commanded. However, I cannot twist anyone’s arm, but I can educate.

Lifting one Bible verse is not enough.

I’ll give you a few:

The Church must be one
Jn 10:16 - there will be one fold and one shepherd.
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
1Cor 1:10 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
1Cor 12:13 - in one spirit we are baptized into one body
Rom 12:5 - we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to be one hope
Col 3:15 - the peace into which you were called in one body
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church (singular)
Mt 18:17 - tell it to THE Church; if he refuses to listen even to THE Church… (must be visible)

then:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
338 AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

I’m not getting into the battle of the Bible verses, that battle can be never ending. Bottom line is that you made a wrong presumption that nobody outside the Catholic Church can obtain salvation. Even the Church says it doesn’t make that presumption, so how can you?

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

I’m not getting into the battle of the Bible verses, that battle can be never ending. Bottom line is that you made a wrong presumption that nobody outside the Catholic Church can obtain salvation. Even the Church says it doesn’t make that presumption, so how can you?

Awww shucks. It’s a battle you won’t win. I also quoted the Catechism which is a combination of Bible and Tradition. That is Church teaching.

What I said was - “If you find yourself in heaven it will be through the Catholic Church.” I made no presumption about their current state. Picture it this way. There are several roads that take you to the top of the mountain. There is one - the Catholic Church which has a sign pointing the way - on the top of the mountain there is a ladder. The ladder goes up to heaven. The ladder represents the Catholic Church.

 

[fix]

mikew262:

I’m not getting into the battle of the Bible verses, that battle can be never ending. Bottom line is that you made a wrong presumption that nobody outside the Catholic Church can obtain salvation. Even the Church says it doesn’t make that presumption, so how can you?

Of course, it is true there is no salvation outside the Church. That must be properly defined and understood.

 

[Linnyo]

blessedrosary:

First of all, we are not arguing the salvation of other Christians/Protestants. If you read your catechism, the church teaches that others outside the church can be saved by loving God as best as they know him. That aside… you who call yourself a “Catholic” yet “protest” the OFFICIAL teachings of the Church are in fact no Catholic. It takes humility to accept the teachings of a Church that has been around since when our Creator walked on earth over your own oppinions. If I had a dollar for everytime you used the phrase “in my oppinion” i would definately be a rich person. Heresy is a huge problem in the church now a days and I think its time to change this. The Church teaches infallibly and with absolutely NO leeway that they are 100% correct on Faith and Morality. If you have a problem with it, then you should probably change your faith or your religion, because in these two areas, the Catholic Church will NEVER change

I used the phrase in my opinion only twice which does not make you very rich at all! It seems unfortunate that you are unable to hold no opinions of your own. I am aware that the RCC will never change and I accept it with itas faults. All churches have faults because they contain people and all people come with faults. My major faults are as big as anyone elses but neither you or anyone else can tell me that there are not faults in every church. God loves us with our faults. He doesn’t tell us to go and join a different religion just because he doesn’t like what we are saying! (unlike some people) :yawn:

As for heresy - on you go and make judgements on me - it won’t do YOU any good.

 

[mikew262]

buffalo:

Awww shucks. It’s a battle you won’t win. I also quoted the Catechism which is a combination of Bible and Tradition. That is Church teaching.

What I said was - “If you find yourself in heaven it will be through the Catholic Church.” I made no presumption about their current state. Picture it this way. There are several roads that take you to the top of the mountain. There is one - the Catholic Church which has a sign pointing the way - on the top of the mountain there is a ladder. The ladder goes up to heaven. The ladder represents the Catholic Church.

While I admire your devout “Catholic Church is the only way” attitude, I respectfully disagree.

As far as not participating in the “my bible quotes are better than yours” contest, I’ve observed too many on this board and others. Nobody wins, because anybody can find a Bible quote to support their position.

 

[mikew262]

fix:

Of course, it is true there is no salvation outside the Church. That must be properly defined and understood.

I disagree. You can’t tell me that a obvious Christian like Billy Graham will not be welcomed into Heaven because he wasn’t Catholic. Do you believe that? Seriously?

 

[mikew262]

Linnyo:

As for heresy - on you go and make judgements on me - it won’t do YOU any good.

I told you it wouldn’t take long for the “heresy” label to come out.

 

[fix]

mikew262:

I disagree. You can’t tell me that a obvious Christian like Billy Graham will not be welcomed into Heaven because he wasn’t Catholic. Do you believe that? Seriously?

You seem to misunderstand what the CC teaches.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

It is possible for folks who are not formal members to be saved, but if they are saved they are saved through the Catholic Church.

 

[mikew262]

fix:

You seem to misunderstand what the CC teaches.

It is possible for folks who are not formal members to be saved, but if they are saved they are saved through the Catholic Church.

Either I’m very dense (I’m not ruling that out BTW), or what you are saying doesn’t make any sense.

Billy Graham can only be saved through the Catholic Church, is what you are saying? I would say Billy Graham knows the Gospel of Christ better than most. Keep in mind, you are quoting the CCC, which carries no authority with non Catholic Christians.

 

[Linnyo]

mikew262:

Either I’m very dense (I’m not ruling that out BTW), or what you are saying doesn’t make any sense.

Billy Graham can only be saved through the Catholic Church, is what you are saying? I would say Billy Graham knows the Gospel of Christ better than most. Keep in mind, you are quoting the CCC, which carries no authority with non Catholic Christians.

I would agree. Billy Graham is saved through Christ who is the only way to God. How can he be saved through a church he may never have set foot in?

 

[fix]

mikew262:

Either I’m very dense (I’m not ruling that out BTW), or what you are saying doesn’t make any sense.

Billy Graham can only be saved through the Catholic Church, is what you are saying? I would say Billy Graham knows the Gospel of Christ better than most. Keep in mind, you are quoting the CCC, which carries no authority with non Catholic Christians.

I cannot speak to the salvation of any particular person, but Christ founded the Church and that is the means for salvation. If one is not formally a member it is still possible one may be saved but their salvation is still accomplished through the one Church founded by Christ.

As for authority, the Church is the authority. That some refuse to accept it, or do not grasp that fact, does not mean it is not the authority.

 

[fix]

Linnyo:

I would agree. Billy Graham is saved through Christ who is the only way to God. How can he be saved through a church he may never have set foot in?

Perhaps you could see this link as some help?:

#16 says: “For they who without their own fault do not
know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere
heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in
practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain
eternal salvation.” John Paul II in his Encyclical on the Missions in #10
says the same [underline added]: “For such people [those who do not
formally enter the Church, as in LG 16] salvation in Christ is accessible
by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the
Church, does not make them part of the Church.” We underline the
word “formally” to indicated that there may be something less than formal
membership, which yet suffices for salvation. A similar thought is found in
LG #14 which says “they are fully incorporated” who accept all its
organization. . . . ." We will show presently that there can be a lesser,
or substantial membership, which suffices for salvation.
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT

Also, we connot separate Christ and His Church.

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

I told you it wouldn’t take long for the “heresy” label to come out.

One who cleaves from the truth is a heretic. Not a label at all, just a correct description.

 

[buffalo]

mikew262:

. Keep in mind, you are quoting the CCC, which carries no authority with non Catholic Christians.

It really doesn’t matter if they believe it or not. The truth is the truth. Now what contributes to one’s salvation is upon hearing the truth and not believing it. I am sure Graham has heard the truth. So I will leave it up to God.

 

[buffalo]

Linnyo:

I would agree. Billy Graham is saved through Christ who is the only way to God. How can he be saved through a church he may never have set foot in?

The Church is not something you set foot in. That is too basic of a definition here.