Is the christmas tree evil?

[quasimodo]

That is, metaphorically speaking, doesn’t the Christmas tree of today represent the same values as the tree worship in ancient Israel did that God condemned?

Your question represents a lack of understanding about what pagan idol worshop was. They believed that the idol created by their own hands (or some other object perhaps) had real power to effect change in the world around them. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, thinks that a Christmas tree has any kind of mystical power to effect change in the physical world (except to make a mess by dropping needles as they quite naturally do). Further, your question evinces a significant lack of understanding about what Worship is in general.

Christmas trees are pretty and inspire pleasant memories of past times with the family and friends. The “values” the christmas tree represents - if any - would be beauty, love of family, good friendships, comforts of home, peaceful contentment and the celebration of Christ’s birth (for many of us in this country, at least). All but the last may have been on the pagan’s list of values, but I’ll bet they are on your list too.

Your fear of any pagan influence on religion displays a lack of understanding of the influence that pagan Greek culture had on Israel before and after Christ - which influenced the Apostles and early Christians. The fact that the New Testament was written in Greek, perforce effects a profound influence on Christianity. Jesus himself paraphrased pagan philosophers. The New Testament writers quoted the Septuagint 300 times. The Septuagint, being written in Greek by Hellenized Jews, was profoundly influenced by Greek (pagan) culture. The influence, is so great that one wonders if the Holy Spirit purposely reached out to the pagan Greek culture to prepare for the coming of the Church so that it would be accessable to all the pagan cultures around the world - so that the Church could go out and preach the gospel to the whole world.

Finally, your question displays a lack of understanding of the nature of the Catholic Church. There are a Billion Catholics in the world. Those who celebrate with Christas trees are a minority. It is not an official religious artifact of the church. It is localized in a few areas of the world. Nobody worships them. Period. (Except perhaps my dog - she is kinda weird around them).

 

[quasimodo]

If it is ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols - Christmas trees are no problem. See 1Corinthians 10.

If Christmas trees make you fall down and worhip them, then don’t have one. I don’t have that problem so, according to Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, as long those who come to my house don’t worship it, a Christmas tree is OK. So far, nobody has sacrificed a chicken my Christmas trees. I’ll keep everyone informed.

 

[estesbob]

If it is ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols - Christmas trees are no problem. See 1Corinthians 10.

.

Would that be like Christmas ham?

 

[Tom]

I have tried very hard to present a topic in a non-threatening way by asking questions, not condeming anyone’s belief. For the life of me, I don’t understand you hostility towards me.

Ya know Tab, sometimes when we communicate we use inflammatory statements without even thinking they are inflammatory.

IMHO, if a catholic can quickly dismiss the suggestion that the tree represents pagan idolatry as non-sense;that person would have a difficult time explaining to a non-catholic that the eucharist is nothing more than eating crackers and drinking grape juice.

Being a former Catholic, surely you see how this is inflammatory? Calling the physical presence of God, crackers and grape juice?

Yes. I considered myself Catholic until I was 32. I am now 43 and have not done Christmas in 5 years. Over the past 11 years since I’ve stopped going to mass, I’ve learned more about the bible then I did during all those 32 years times seven.

Meaning we Catholics are ignorant of Scripture since you were we all must be?

I no longer am involved in the sin I use to do.

Meaning as a Catholic you were forced or expected to sin?

I’m married and have a beautiful home. I tithe to help the spiritual widows and spiritual orphans. All of which, came at the sacrifice of not doing Christmas.

It’s almost funny, since we Catholics are often accussed of attempting to buy our way into heaven with money and our good works.

I now view Christmas as a time for believers, atheist and pagans alike to hold hands and give thanks for being alive for one more year. Nothing more.

So now the Catholics are the same as pagans and atheists?

There is no spiritual truth in the annual ritual of Christmas. Did not Jesus order his followers to take up their crosses and follow him? (Luke 9:23)

We’re simply deceived?

When I did Christmas, I was laying my cross down and fulfilling the flesh.

So all Catholics are shallow, simply interested in “fulfilling the flesh”?
Yeah, I don’t know why anyone would be defensive!
Don’t be too offended, we simply didn’t understand we were so ignorant.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If it is ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols - Christmas trees are no problem. See 1Corinthians 10.

If Christmas trees make you fall down and worhip them, then don’t have one. I don’t have that problem so, according to Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, as long those who come to my house don’t worship it, a Christmas tree is OK. So far, nobody has sacrificed a chicken my Christmas trees. I’ll keep everyone informed.

And I think this re-inforces the point:​

[

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. To the pure all things are pure, (http://www.blueletterbible.org/rsv/Tts/Tts001.html#15)

I think verse 15 is making the same point as St.Paul makes in Romans 14; & as [James says,

Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. ](http://www.blueletterbible.org/rsv/Jam/Jam004.html#17).

There is a larger issue here, if not several:

• What is permissible to a Christian ?
• What are the limits of the Christian’s liberty ?
• How does one live in this liberty without giving scandal to:
• • other Christians
• • non-Christians
• How far are the prescriptions in the OT to be observed by Christians, whether of the Apostolic age, or of today
  Catholics & Calvinists are both concerned to be “holy to the Lord” - neither sort of Christian is alone in this, neither is seeking to ignore it; the issue between them seems to be, what being holy forbids; both (not one or the other alone) can fall into a deadening legalism, yet both claim to be living under grace - so: is it incompatible with a gracious Christ-centred life to have Christmas trees, or to use musical instruments in worship ? We & Lutherans (for example) would say neither is of itself forbidden.

Catholicism seems to allow certain things, and to disallow only their abuse - alcohol being an obvious example; Calvinism seems to object to the use of some things (such as alcohol) even in principle. ##

 

[tabcom]

If it is ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols - Christmas trees are no problem. See 1Corinthians 10.

**1Co 10:28 -
But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat {it,} for the sake of the one who informed {you,} and for conscience’ sake;

IMHO, you are misunderstanding the context of this passage.

Let me present an example. Let’s say a baby believer is struggling with their faith. They look up to you as a role model for how a christian should live. Let’s say a co-worker offers you a gift of a wooden Ganesha (see earlier post for a picture). You know it is a meaningless idol. However, if that gift is to cause confusion in the baby believer, you should refain from accepting the gift.**

 

[tabcom]

So all Catholics are . . .

Your illogical conclusion that my testifying to my personal experience can be superimposed on all the Catholics is unfortunate

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Would that be like Christmas ham?

That, &​

• mutton
• fish
• beer
• wine
• blood sausages
• hamburgers
• salami
• pizza
• pork chops
• pork pies
• steak
• leg of lamb
• haggis
• scones
• sandwiches
• • and that is just for entrees.
    All are from animals offered to idols - so fish, bread, sheep, bovine creatures, & all things made therefrom, are forbidden

Fasting is (possibly) allowed ##

 

[tabcom]

Your question represents a lack of understanding about what pagan idol worshop was. They believed that the idol created by their own hands (or some other object perhaps) had real power to effect change in the world around them.

**
From where did the first tree worship begin? I believe it began in Gen 2:16.

Genesis 2:16 17 – of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.

And what was the ‘real power’ that was promised to Eve?

Genesis 3:5
“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

After spending the past five years not doing Christmas, I believe the tree metaphorically represents the tree in the garden.

When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).

1 John 2:15-17

15
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16
For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and pride life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17
Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.

I humbly submit this not to enrage, but to testify, as to my personal path to Christ.**

 

[runandsew]

2 Peter 3:15
There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

You gotta love Sola Scriptura.

I think the whole point of this is that we are to worship the creator, not the creation.
The Christmas tree is a creation, we do not worship it. The Christmas tree can have many meanings for us to point us to Christ. The evergreen because Christ is everlasting, and because in the dead of winter there is life.
The lights because they point us to the light of Christ.
If the Catholic celebrates Advent, and then Christmas deep in his or her heart, then, they are preparing themselves for the birth of our Lord, and also the 2nd coming.
But no one worships the Christmas tree. I have never heard anyone pray " Oh holy and mighty Christmas tree, creator of all that there is…"
No, we worship God alone, and the tree is one of God’s creations which we use to help us get closer to the reality of God sending his one and only son to die for us and save us from our sins.
Yes, there are many pagan and other practices, which Christians saw had some truth in them, and have incorporated them into their practices. The same is true with the Jewish customs. You will find a lot of what is written in the bible, having been practiced by other cultures before God used them in Jewish history to glorify him.

 

[deb1]

**1Co 10:28 - **
But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat {it,} for the sake of the one who informed {you,} and for conscience’ sake;

**IMHO, you are misunderstanding the context of this passage. **

Let me present an example. Let’s say a baby believer is struggling with their faith. They look up to you as a role model for how a christian should live. Let’s say a co-worker offers you a gift of a wooden Ganesha (see earlier post for a picture). You know it is a meaningless idol. However, if that gift is to cause confusion in the baby believer, you should refain from accepting the gift.

It is difficult for me to relate to receiving a Ganesh. What if we changed the item to playing cards?

I attend a Baptist Church that told my son that he couldn’t bring playing cards to the Youth meeting. He had brought them because he noticed that the teenage males were getting disruptive after the meeting but before their parents came. He thought that it would keep them quiet to play a game that you sat down for.

Unfortunately the youth minister told him that many people associate cards with gambling and that he couldn’t bring them to church.

I told my son to follow the rules. I also informed him to be conscious that for some Christians their own weakness might make a harmless game of spades sinful. He was to be respectful and considerate. I told him to make certain that when the children of these parents came to our home, that he did not ask them to play a game of cards out of respect for their parents.

Yet, if asked, he was not to lie and deny that he liked to play cards or pretend that he didn’t occasionally do so. Neither did I advise him that he should stop playing spades because some Christians had difficulty with any card game. If he had received a deck of cards in front of such a church member, I would not have told him to return the gift.

Personally, I think that I was giving him very biblical advise. Stronger Christians are to be considerate of other Christians weakness. But the weaker Christian is not supposed to control the stronger Christian.

 

[deb1]

From where did the first tree worship begin? I believe it began in Gen 2:16.

Genesis 2:16 17 – of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.

**And what was the ‘real power’ that was promised to Eve? **

**Genesis 3:5 **
"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

**After spending the past five years not doing Christmas, I believe the tree metaphorically represents the tree in the garden. **

When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).

1 John 2:15-17

15
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16
For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and pride life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17
Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.

I humbly submit this not to enrage, but to testify, as to my personal path to Christ.

But by this interpretation, then trees themselves are evil and pagan. Something that they are not.

 

[tabcom]

2 Peter 3:15
There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

You gotta love Sola Scriptura.

**
It appears to me that your citation of 2 Peter 3:15 is in error. Would you care to try again?

2 Peter 3:15
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,

nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/2peter/2peter3.htm**

 

[Karin]

It appears to me that your citation of 2 Peter 3:15 is in error. Would you care to try again?

2 Peter 3:15
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,

nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/2peter/2peter3.htm

2* Peter 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you***
drbo.org/chapter/68003.htm

Your point?

 

[tabcom]

2* Peter 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you***
drbo.org/chapter/68003.htm
Your point?

With respests to post #88, runandsew has quoted from the bible in error. I’m not sure what runandsew intent is.

 

[tabcom]

But by this interpretation, then trees themselves are evil and pagan. Something that they are not.

** I’m afraid that if you cannot see the metaphorical imagery, you are missing my point.
**

 

[Karin]

With respests to post #88, runandsew has quoted from the bible in error. I’m not sure what runandsew intent is.

it is from a website…
zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m1/bbl.html

 

[Sandi]

The tree isn’t evil but sometimes I think my cats are after they’ve knocked it down for the umpteenth time.

I should add that I saw someone make mention of HAGGIS…I don’t know how that made its way into a discussion of Christmas trees but I will aver that HAGGIS truly IS evil.

 

[quasimodo]

**1Co 10:28 -
But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat {it,} for the sake of the one who informed {you,} and for conscience’ sake;

IMHO, you are misunderstanding the context of this passage.

Let me present an example. Let’s say a baby believer is struggling with their faith. They look up to you as a role model for how a christian should live. Let’s say a co-worker offers you a gift of a wooden Ganesha (see earlier post for a picture). You know it is a meaningless idol. However, if that gift is to cause confusion in the baby believer, you should refain from accepting the gift.**

I misunderstood NOTHING. That is the context in which I presented the verse. So far nobody has a problem worshiping my trees. If they slaughter a Christmas ham and sprinkle the blood around the tree stand, I’ll let you know.

If I suspected some bonehead thought I was going to take a statue home to worship it, I probably would not take - but I would take the opportunity to catechize said bonehead. I guess I have never met someone so profoundly ignorant.

 

[runandsew]

**
It appears to me that your citation of 2 Peter 3:15 is in error. Would you care to try again?

2 Peter 3:15
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,

nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/2peter/2peter3.htm**

oops sorry it should be 2 Peter 3:16

If you look into the Old Testament, God commanded Moses to make and use the bronze serpant to heal the people who had been bitten by the snakes. It wasn’t until the people began to worship that bronze serpant that God made them smash it. So this shows me that it is the worship of idols and images that God forbids.