Is the Church intolerant for not Accepting Homosexual Behavior?

[TheGarg]

Setting this up to discuss an off topic offshoot of another thread.

That is Like asking if Christ is Intolerant of Sin…of course He is, but Sin and God cannot Coexist. Sin must be atoned for, and if you cling to that sin, you will be punished along with it.

Active Homosexuals, live a life against the Word of God. It is something that just is, not something a bunch of homophobes made up.

The Catholic Church is far more loving toward any sinner, proof being in the number of ways to obtian Grace, given to us by our Lord Jesus

 

[Gnosis]

The main reason they have a slighly higher rate of suicide is due to the rampant promiscouity engaged in by the majortiy of homosexuals. More partners means more breakups and the emotional stress of breakups is a contributing factor to a large number of suicidesby both among teen homosexuals and heterosexual

Are you kidding me? Please, take this from someone who has experienced the entire “coming out” thing…feeling that you have to repress and hide your sexuality, the frustration and anger that stems from attempting to change it, the obvious hostility towards your sexuali idenity from people surrounding you, the fear that your own family, never mind society at large, will reject you, the marginalization, ridicule and often outright cruelty and the pervasive feeling that you are alone because you have to keep this poisonous secret to yourself as it quite literally corrodes your soul…

Before I came out…it felt like there was a poison inside of me, literaly, it translated into a physical sickness…often I couldn’t eat breakfast before school because the stress made my stomach acidic . I was plagued by nightmares and I emotionally withdrew from my family. The coming out process coupled with strong support from friends and family has largely healed that pain but I can not forget it.

If you think what I mentioned above does not contribute to the higher rate of suicide among gay teens then you’re being delusional…regardless of your moral standpoint.

Notice he didn’t post even one link to back up his claim?
And if he does happen to find one, it will be biased and terribly lacking of any credibility whatsoever.

And NARTH, which has been sourced here, isn’t biased?

The conservatively defined group of GLBY were three times more likely than others to have been beaten in a fight to the extent they required medical attention; they were also 1.8 times more likely to have been threatened with a weapon in the past 12 months. Twice as many “felt unsafe at school most or all of the time”, and twice as many had skipped school for at least a day in the past month because of these fears (meaning that GLBY will be underestimated in surveys such as this because of this absenteeism factor).
*
Attempted suicide rates were eight times higher in the actively gay and bisexual group of adolescents, compared with their heterosexual counterparts. Another analysis of these data extended the definition of being gay or bisexual to those with this orientation, not merely including those who were sexually active, giving a figure of 4.4% (almost certainly an underestimate). These GLBY were significantly more likely to have been threatened or beaten, to carry a weapon for protection, to be heavy alcohol or drug users: 36.5 % had “attempted suicide” in the past year, compared with 8.9% of those who claimed themselves to be heterosexual.*

Some YRBS have reported on harassment in schools (including the journey to and from school) based on perceived homosexual orientation, and have reported significantly elevated rates of suicidality for these adolescents. The Oregon (1997) YRBS reported that 21% of the students harassed in the previous month had made a suicide attempt in the past year, compared with 5% of the non-harassed, a 4.2 times difference. The Seattle (1995) YRBS gives data making secondary analyses possible, indicating that harassed versus non-harassed students (in the past 12 month) were 3.3 times more likely to report a suicide attempt in the same period (20.4% versus 6.1%) (Tremblay, 2000b). This harassed 7.5% of students who were perceived as Gay or Lesbian accounted for 21.3% of suicide attempters, and 27.8% of adolescents reporting that their suicide attempt was of the more serious nature, requiring medical attention. Using logistic regression analysis, Garofalo et al. (1999) found that experiencing violence and victimisation was a significant predictor of suicide attempts by GLBY. Harassment based on one’s perceived homosexual orientation is often the consequence of individuals manifesting a detectable degree of gender nonconformity., supporting the Oregon (1997) findings.

*Further evidence of the hazards experienced by GLBY in schools comes from the most recent research of D’Augelli et al (2000) which showed in a cross-national sample of 350 youth that ‘gender atypical’ males were most likely to experience abuse. Abuse was in turn linked to a range of negative mental health profiles, including suicidality. Remafedi et al. (1991) have also reported on the basis of logistic regression analysis, that the more ‘feminine’ GB male youth were three times more likely to be suicide attempters than other GB male youth. *

fsw.ucalgary.ca/ramsay/homosexuality-suicide/05-crisis-suicide-paper.htm

 

[Mr_Jullien]

Typical lies by those with a hetereosexual agenda. Obviously Paul was a suppressed homosexual or bisexual. Any psychologist could spot that from a mile off.

So you’re an authority on Paul? You’ve met him? Had him psychoanalized, did you? ** I don’t *think ***so.

The Bible is (whether you like it or not) the inerrant “Word of God”, and Inspired BY God.
Paul’s writings cannot be so easily dismissed as “typical lies by those with a heterosexual agenda”.
So, since God inspired Paul, I suppose, by your reasoning, **He too is "a suppressed homosexual or bisexual"?
Again; **I don’t *think ***so.

Sorry, but your argument (if one could even call it that), doesn’t hold water.
You need to come up with something more substantial to refute The Word of God, than your own agenda and opinions.

PAX,

Jullien

 

[TotalTop]

Love of a man for a man is the HIGHEST physical expression of LOVE that exists on this planet. The HATEFUL campaign of the Catholic Church against it is INTOLERANT evil.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Love of a man for a man is the HIGHEST physical expression of LOVE that exists on this planet. The HATEFUL campaign of the Catholic Church against it is INTOLERANT evil.

We all are aware for you **PERSONAL OPINIONS ** on the issue! Thank-you for sharing. However, I’m personally still waiting for some info to back up your claims.

Example: You stated,

Typical lies by those with a hetereosexual agenda. Obviously Paul was a suppressed homosexual or bisexual. **Any psychologist could spot that from a mile off. **

Where is a quote from a psychologist that back this up. Please give name and where this psychologist practices and license. Thank-you.

you stated:

The Catholic Church has driven many gay youths to suicide by telling them that they are intrinsically disordered. This is hate speech and should be banned by the government.

Where is the study that backs this statement up???

Please provide PROVE to back up your PERSONAL OPINIONS!
Thanks

 

[Mr_Jullien]

First, I need to point out that at least three posts are missing from this thread.
Two were mine. (Although I received no notice of their removal, either by PM or E-mail)
The third was from the poster who made derogatory assumptions about St. Paul’s character, of which he had no basis.

One of my removed posts contained the quoted Scripture text I posted in #3, defending the inerrancy of the Bible.
And since the Church teaches from and adheres to Sacred Scripture, the issue was not that the Church is intolerant of homosexuals, rather; it is intolerant of the behavior.
Big difference, there.
The Church and the Bible are intolerant of all sinful behavior.
Homosexual acts are not singled out and set apart from any of the other sinful acts listed in the text.
I’m sure that if you read those Scripture passages, you’ll agree.
The Church cannot go against Sacred Scripture which we believe is the written “Word of God”. Inspired by God.

The second of my removed posts was in defense of what the poster said (which was totally inappropriate and unfounded) about St. Paul.

                          Notice he didn't post even one link to back up his claim?

And if he does happen to find one, it will be biased and terribly lacking of any credibility whatsoever.

NARTH isn’t the one being falsely accused of not tolerating homosexuals, and it isn’t being accused of causing homosexual youth to commit suicide.
The evidence/link I wanted (and still want) to see is proof that the Catholic Church, as a whole, is solely responsible for teen homosexual suicide.

It has been pointed out above, and numerous times on this thread, The Catholic Church is not intolerant toward homosexuals (people). It is intolerant (as well as the Bible) of homosexual behavior. And yet, those unwilling to accept the Teachings of the Church (which by the way, She cannot change) continue to accuse and codemn Her.

Now, if you were to ask me:

• Are there members of the Catholic Church who are intolerant to homosexuals? I say, “yes, absolutely”.
• Are there members of other Christian Churches who are intolerant to homosexuals? Yes.
• Are there members of non-Christian Churches who are intolerant to homosexuals? Yes.
  I’m sure this question also applies to all religions, as well as Atheists and Agnostics.
  In every community, one will find people who are intolerant of homosexuals.
  Let’s be honest here; there are cruel poeple in every community, but one cannot blame the community as a whole, because it has some bad apples in it.
• Do I condone the ill treatment of homosexuals? Absolutely not.
• Would I reject/disown my own son if he came to me and told me he was homosexual, or my daughter? When hell freezes over.

But that doesn’t mean I’m going to condone them acting on it.
I don’t condone the mistreatment of any human being.

However, if someone is going to attack and falsely accuse my Church of being intolerant of certain groups of people, I’m not going to sit idly by and ignore it.
Catholics have the same right to speak out against those who condemn us and our Church as everyone else.
In fact, it’s not only our right, but our duty.

Personally, IMNSHO: Whatever goes on behind the bedroom door, should stay behind the bedroom door.
I do not need, nor care, to know what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

PAX,

Jullien

 

[Riley259]

No, the Church is just speaking the truth - for some people that hurts.

 

[Mike_OToole]

It is never intolerant to object to sinful behavior such as homosexuality. Jeses Christ showed us that it was wrongful behavior. The he was ridiculed for being a truth teller. He does not want his church to allow sinful behavior of any kind in his church. He does not want it from anyone calling themselves homosexual or heterosexual or even bisexual or transexual.

 

[deborahssong]

Let me pose a question. Has anybody read the scripture where Paul teaches how to discipline within the church? Has anybody seen that? Yet it is rarely done today. In church, all of them, we have become seeker friendly! Instead of keeping and maintaining the body of Christ the way His Holy word says.
In the church of Corinth for gosh sakes, there was incestual relationships taking place. Actually Paul said if a brother does not receive his correction then remove him from the church(body). That is what it says. For all churches be it catholic or protestant. Jesus is about truth, HIs! Love the sinner, but dont condone it and hate the sin! Amen. And bring a brother to restoration if possible! Amen. The problem I see is that most christians do not know Gods word and they only take someones word for it instead of knowing it themselves! I have begun reading some of the early church writings, Justin Martyr did not say anything different than what the Holy Scriptures say! So let me ask, is that difficult to understand? I do not think so.

In His love,
Deborah

 

[Mike_OToole]

Jesus Christ taught that it was not natural for individuals of the same-sex to have sex with each other. Since He also taught that many would willingly distort truth and reject truth. Cults do it. Those practicing homosexual acts do it. Reject truth.

On a seperate note: In Illinois, Governor race, Judy Topinka, Rod Blogojevich, and Rich Whitney all allow for same-sex civil unions (state gay marriage) yet WRITE-IN candidate Randy Stufflebeam (a born-again Christian) is against these type unions. Learn more about this stedfast Christian (a retired Marine and a baby boomer) at his web site www.runrandyrun.com and tell others abiout him too! We need more people like him in elective office in Illinois.

 

[urban-hermit]

… take this from someone who has experienced the entire “coming out” thing…

Dear Gnosis,

I am impressed by your ability, at 18, to express your experience and I am glad you have a family who loves you and I’m sure you are dealing with the fact that you have Same-Sex Attraction the best way you have found to do so.

I am not going to tell you what to do - all I want to let you know is that there is another way. I am an older man (43) whose life was probably not too different from yours in my early 20s, and my point of view about the Catholic Church was similar as well.

In time I found that there is another way to deal with SSA besides choosing homosexual activity. It has brought me a lot of peace and a meaningful life as a chaste single person. I will pray that God protects you in your journey and that you will eventually find what I have found.

Riley259:

No, the Church is just speaking the truth - for some people that hurts.

It does hurt. I agree with you but I think it’s also a good thing to keep in mind (and I think you can verify this by reading what Fr John Harvey - Catholicism’s expert on the pastoral care of the homosexual person if ever there was one - has said and written) that people with SSA do not choose to experience these urges. It’s confusing and scary to young people when they do experience them.

It is possible (and necessary) to be unequivocal about the Church’s teaching on this matter while also extending a real helping hand. But it is far from easy. SSA is simply a very difficult problem to deal with all around. Our best bet is to put God first, know our Faith, and practice both charity and honesty. Hope this helps.

 

[Mr_Jullien]

Dear Gnosis,

I am impressed by your ability, at 18, to express your experience and I am glad you have a family who loves you and I’m sure you are dealing with the fact that you have Same-Sex Attraction the best way you have found to do so.

I am not going to tell you what to do - all I want to let you know is that there is another way. I am an older man (43) whose life was probably not too different from yours in my early 20s, and my point of view about the Catholic Church was similar as well.

In time I found that there is another way to deal with SSA besides choosing homosexual activity. It has brought me a lot of peace and a meaningful life as a chaste single person. I will pray that God protects you in your journey and that you will eventually find what I have found.

It does hurt. I agree with you but I think it’s also a good thing to keep in mind (and I think you can verify this by reading what Fr John Harvey - Catholicism’s expert on the pastoral care of the homosexual person if ever there was one - has said and written) that people with SSA do not choose to experience these urges. It’s confusing and scary to young people when they do experience them.

It is possible (and necessary) to be unequivocal about the Church’s teaching on this matter while also extending a real helping hand. But it is far from easy. SSA is simply a very difficult problem to deal with all around. Our best bet is to put God first, know our Faith, and practice both charity and honesty. Hope this helps.

A beautiful post, urban-hermit.
I commend you for your courage in sharing such a personal issue.

Peace to you and yours.

PAX,

Jullien

 

[deborahssong]

Its so awesome to see the hearts of christians here who trully understand the love, grace and mercy, of our Lord & Saviour, Jesus. Its not at all that the church is intolerant of people, but we would not be “the” church If we tolerated sin. People who are either in sin or just plain dont understand will be the ones to get offended. It was the same way when Jesus, Peter, and Paul walked. Mankind hasnt changed much.
Today I read an excerpt from our Charismatic conference. A priest said, "what I pray for is to see the church, catholics, show what they know about the good news. he said he is tired of seeing long faces every sunday. Sad looks and no joy! I am telling you that pleases me to hear him say that. We are suppose to have the answer to life folks and show the world HIs light. So we have lots to do. remember James said that faith without works is dead. If we say we have faith and yet we do not live accordingly, then we have no faith. Faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God. No other way! Yes Jesus did set us free from every bondage. We must choose to walk it out. We are NOt to walk by the flesh. It will always get us in trouble. God has so much fo us here, if we just receive and get on board of His plan. To the young man struggling, God loves you so much and He is only a breath away to help you in YOUR time of need. I know for He rescued me from a life of hell, not homosexuality but just the same a terrible inner soul. Torn and wounded for years,but God… Please go to Dennis Jernigans website and read his awesome story. How God delivered him. With God all things are possible. God bless!

 

[StevenAC]

This whole thread is emblematic of what the world thinks about the Church. That is that the Church should change, or adapt, to what the world believes. Where would we be if the Church had done that in the past? I doubt the Church would have survived 2000 years if it were not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Our generation is just like those of the past, we have our problems, and I think one of them is “tolerance”. We need ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and the Catholic Church stands up for it!! If it didn’t it would have never survived 2000 years. I have found it a lot easier to trust the Church on theological and moral issues. I am amazed by the rationalization people do to try to convince others their divergence from the truth is ok. Who do they think they are fooling? Ultimately God will judge us all, I hope everyone who diverges from the Church’s teaching are prepared fot that. P.S. I include myself as on of those who sometimes strays, even though I don’t want to. (Romans 8:7)

 

[boppaid]

The Apostles taught the same way. It was a generation before anything was written down, and the New Testament as we know it only emerged in about 382 AD.

So for about 350 years, Christianity was taught by word of mouth, aided by some written documents, but not based on them. In fact, when the Canon of the New Testament was finally established, many “candidate” documents were found to be spurious or badly edited.

I guess I’m still confused. Wasn’t Paul, Peter, John, etc. chriistian? It wasn’t a generation before anything was written down (as far as I know) since Paul, Peter, etc.were writing things down since Christ died!

 

[boppaid]

Q: Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God?
click here for the answer

This also might be helpful The Sacraments & The Bible (Baptism, Confession, & The Eucharist)

Thank you. That was helpful. Except, where does it say to confess to a priest? It says to confess to men, I get that, but no where does it say priests only. At least that’s what the Baptist I’m debating with said to me when I quoted the scripture you gave me. I have to admit, I’m stumped by that.

 

[rlg94086]

Hi boppaid,

It doesn’t explain it fully, but your answer is in the link mommy gave…

Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him…so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins. And, just in case they didn’t get it, verses 22-23 say this, “And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’”

Those disciples were the first Bishops and priests. We all don’t have the ability to “bind and loose” - only those who are ordained. Here are some other links:

catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
catholic.com/library/Bishop_Priest_and_Deacon.asp

God bless,

Robert

Thank you. That was helpful. Except, where does it say to confess to a priest? It says to confess to men, I get that, but no where does it say priests only. At least that’s what the Baptist I’m debating with said to me when I quoted the scripture you gave me. I have to admit, I’m stumped by that.

 

[Exalt]

Is the Church intolerant for not Accepting Homosexual Behavior?

As a gay 20-year old man, my first reaction was that the Church isn’t “intolerant” for finding homosexual behavior immoral. However, the Catholic Church is opposed to governments recognizing homosexual unions. I find this position intolerant and inconsistent. The Church does not expect the government to uphold the Catholic definition of divorce. The reasoning is that it would unfair to those people who do not have the Catholic definition of marriage and divorce. After all, they say, how would Christians like living under, say, Muslim rule?

 

[rlg94086]

Divorce has been accepted (though still scandalous) in this country since it’s founding, as it was primarily founded by Protestants. Catholics were in no position to protest it way back then. We live in a country where we vote on issues like this. Certainly, it is our right to protest a change in respects to marriage and/or homosexual unions.

God bless,

Robert

As a gay 20-year old man, my first reaction was that the Church isn’t “intolerant” for finding homosexual behavior immoral. However, the Catholic Church is opposed to governments recognizing homosexual unions. I find this position intolerant and inconsistent. The Church does not expect the government to uphold the Catholic definition of divorce. The reasoning is that it would unfair to those people who do not have the Catholic definition of marriage and divorce. After all, they say, how would Christians like living under, say, Muslim rule?

 

[urban-hermit]

Just want to point out that civil divorce is sometimes necessary to divide the property when, for example, a woman needs to separate from her husband who is an unrepentant wife-beater or some such situation. In that case, the Church recognizes that civil divorce fulfills an unfortunate but necessary function: to divide the couple’s assets and provide for the wife and children if there are any. After the civil divorce is finalized, the question of whether or not an annullment is possible can be explored.

So under certain circumstances civil divorce is necessary. But there is no circumstance when “gay marriage” is necessary or warranted. It’s qualitatively different in that it distorts and makes a mockery of true marriage, which is based in large part on the physical complementarity of the male and the female.

It’s wrong to assume that objections to “gay marriage” are based on religious belief. Muslims, Jews, Atheists, etc. can all find common ground on this issue because it is essentially a rational issue, a perception of objective reality, that marriage is based in large part on the physical complementarity of the male and the female.