Is the devil real or a human invention?

[Promotor_Fidei]

Jennifer123:

I certainly am no biblical or literature scholar, maybe someone could clarify my thoughts or give more information about this.

Dei Verbum states regarding the Old Testament:

“These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy. (1) These same books, then, give expression to a lively sense of God, contain a store of sublime teachings about God, sound wisdom about human life, and a wonderful treasury of prayers, and in them the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way. Christians should receive them with reverence.”

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

Someone who doesn’t understand ancient Hebrew culture has NO CHANCE of understanding what an Old Testament author meant to convey. It was written for an audience that understood who the Northern Kingdom was, the Midianites, the customs etc.

Catholics do not regard scripture as self-explanatory or inerrant in all things. Scripture isn’t to be used as an accurate history or physics textbook.

“…books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”

The Bible is a history of salvation. It contains both saints and sinners, much like the Church.

 

[Shoshana]

contemplative:

The official website of Stephen King. stephenking.com/index_flash.php

Please explain yourself as I do not undertand the reasoning of your post.

 

[contemplative]

Shoshana:

Please explain yourself as I do not undertand the reasoning of your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshana

I wish my imagination was so creative!

The official website of Stephen King. stephenking.com/index_flash.php

Some of Stephen King’s stories contain very evil characters which mirrorr evil. King’s imagination is enough to create demons for his stories but in reality his imagination only imitates what already exists. Demons exist before our imagination and perception.

 

[deb1]

Just a note on Stephen King. He is MEthodist but his wife is Catholic. He said in a long ago interview on Sixty Minutes that he wears a Miraculous Medal. In the novel the Green Mile, he has the Hail Mary in French. Perhaps some of his evil characters are based on Christian beliefs in demons.

 

[wcknight]

Monarchy:

No. Physical Proof?

Visit Mexico City and the cloak of St Juan Diego. It is over 400 years old, and display an image of Mary, miraculously made from roses. It was scientifically analyzed and the pigments have properties that did not exist 400 years ago. Plus high magnification shows a reflection in the virgin’s eyes, showing an image of Juan Diego. The image can not be recreated even with today’s technology.

Visit Paris and Nevers, France, there you will find the incorrupt bodies of St Catherine of Siena and St Bernadette. They died in the 1800’s, and early 1900’s, yet their bodies are still intact. Or visit Bologna or Cascia Italy, you can see the bodies of St Catherine of Bologna, or St Rita of Casia. St Rita died over 400 years ago. Eyewitnesses have said the body of St Catherine sometimes rises in its enclosure and her eyes will open.

Examine the blood samples of the Eucharistic miracles of Akita, Casia, and several others you will find the same blood type (and probably the same DNA) for samples that are from the 7th century, the 15h century, the 19th and 20th century.

There is plenty of physical evidence, more than enough to convict most criminals with 100% accuracy. But skeptics and atheists just choose to close their eyes and discount it.

IF you honestly want to find the truth all you have to do is take the Miraculous Medal challenge. Get a miraculous medal and wear or keep it for one year, and if you are still an atheist after that year, come back here and tell us it didn’t work. You can harass us and gloat that you took our challenge and it failed.

I will even send one to you free, just email me with an address (but you have to promise you will wear or keep it with you for one full year).

wc

 

[Monarchy]

wcknight:

Visit Mexico City and the cloak of St Juan Diego. It is over 400 years old, and display an image of Mary, miraculously made from roses. It was scientifically analyzed and the pigments have properties that did not exist 400 years ago. Plus high magnification shows a reflection in the virgin’s eyes, showing an image of Juan Diego. The image can not be recreated even with today’s technology.

Visit Paris and Nevers, France, there you will find the incorrupt bodies of St Catherine of Siena and St Bernadette. They died in the 1800’s, and early 1900’s, yet their bodies are still intact. Or visit Bologna or Cascia Italy, you can see the bodies of St Catherine of Bologna, or St Rita of Casia. St Rita died over 400 years ago. Eyewitnesses have said the body of St Catherine sometimes rises in its enclosure and her eyes will open.

Examine the blood samples of the Eucharistic miracles of Akita, Casia, and several others you will find the same blood type (and probably the same DNA) for samples that are from the 7th century, the 15h century, the 19th and 20th century.

And I am sure that if I go and visit these shrines they will just let me go right up and physically inspect the items and run experiments on them.

There is plenty of physical evidence, more than enough to convict most criminals with 100% accuracy. But skeptics and atheists just choose to close their eyes and discount it.

Like the shroud of Turin? Once it was actually examined and the age checked it was dicovered it was only 700 years old, a mere 1300 years off.

IF you honestly want to find the truth all you have to do is take the Miraculous Medal challenge. Get a miraculous medal and wear or keep it for one year, and if you are still an atheist after that year, come back here and tell us it didn’t work. You can harass us and gloat that you took our challenge and it failed.

So prayer and asking isn’t enough? I just have to were a medal and I will magically be shown God exists?

 

[juancross]

Real,but dont look for the guy with horns and tripod, hes much too cunning and devious to show himself openly, hes hiding somwhere .Jesus is the way and the Truth
:blessyou:

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

Monarchy:

And I am sure that if I go and visit these shrines they will just let me go right up and physically inspect the items and run experiments on them.

Like the shroud of Turin? Once it was actually examined and the age checked it was dicovered it was only 700 years old, a mere 1300 years off.

Actually, it turns out the infamous carbon-14 sample was taken from one of the patches on the cloth, not the cloth itself. I saw a PBS documentary, part of their “Secrets of the Dead” series, where they had a textile expert from Switzerland examine the Shroud, and she identified the linen as a particular kind of cloth you’d find being woven in Palestine during the 1st Century AD.

 

[StratusRose]

Monarchy:

So prayer and asking isn’t enough? I just have to were a medal and I will magically be shown God exists?

Ok, I’m jumping into this discussion now. I’ve been following along for a couple days. If you want to start praying, then do it. No one has to have a medal to be shown that God exists. Go to a private, quiet place and pour your heart out. Pray with an open mind. Try it for a long period of time and see what happens. If you don’t feel a presense or hear a still voice speaking to you, then fine, you got your answer.

I have to ask something. Why are you here? It seems to me that you are here only to provoke us and mock our beliefs. Or is it out of curiosity and the nagging thought in the back of your mind that you may in fact be wrong about this whole “God doesn’t exist” thing. Faith is all about believing in something with no evidence. It’s like getting married and having faith in your partner. There’s no assurance or physical evidence that he or she will remain faithful to you, but you trust them anyway because of love.

Do you think nuns, priests, brothers, the pope, and the faithful laity just make this stuff up about hearing God’s voice and believing in him? For 2000 years, don’t you think that maybe there is something keeping us spiritually alive? This kind of thing just doesn’t happen by itself.

Next time you look through a Bible to prove how God is evil, why don’t you read through it with out malice. Read it like it’s just any other book and see if you feel the same about it.

 

[dranzal]

The devil is real. He is a created being who chose to reject God and now works tirelessly to lure us to choose likewise.

He is likely quite pleased that so many think he is nothing more than myth.

Saint Michael, defend us in battle…

 

[Nan_S]

Wow. I log off for a few days and look what happens in this thread…

Monarchy:

Is it possible that God exists? Yes. It is also possible that Unicorns, Griffins, etc exist. Do you believe in them? Why not? I have no belief in god because there is NO proof that he exists.

Monarchy, I have no proof that you exist. You could just be the controversial internet alter-ego of a quiet housewife. Can you prove otherwise?

You’ve acknowledged the possibility that God could exist. But then you deny it because you have not seen convincing proof. It’s obvious that the proofs which convinced me to believe are deemed to be inadequate by you.

So let’s try this from a different angle. How would you prove to me that God DOES NOT exist? What convinced you?

 

[Monarchy]

Matrix Refugee:

Actually, it turns out the infamous carbon-14 sample was taken from one of the patches on the cloth, not the cloth itself. I saw a PBS documentary, part of their “Secrets of the Dead” series, where they had a textile expert from Switzerland examine the Shroud, and she identified the linen as a particular kind of cloth you’d find being woven in Palestine during the 1st Century AD.

So a carbon-14 sample hasn’t been done on the actual cloth?
Then there is no proof either way.

 

[Monarchy]

StratusRose:

Ok, I’m jumping into this discussion now. I’ve been following along for a couple days. If you want to start praying, then do it. No one has to have a medal to be shown that God exists. Go to a private, quiet place and pour your heart out. Pray with an open mind. Try it for a long period of time and see what happens. If you don’t feel a presense or hear a still voice speaking to you, then fine, you got your answer.

What makes you think I haven’t? I have prayed and haven yet to feel anything.

I have to ask something. Why are you here? It seems to me that you are here only to provoke us and mock our beliefs. Or is it out of curiosity and the nagging thought in the back of your mind that you may in fact be wrong about this whole “God doesn’t exist” thing.

Ah yes the resiquite “why are you here?” post. I post here because I am defending atheism against the mistruths told about it here. The same way a catholic might post on a baptist board to defend the Catholisism when they start saying “catholics are idoloters”, etc.

Faith is all about believing in something with no evidence. It’s like getting married and having faith in your partner. There’s no assurance or physical evidence that he or she will remain faithful to you, but you trust them anyway because of love.

I can show that my partner exists, I can touch her, pick her up etc… I have faith in things that can be shown to exist

There are those who scoff at the school boy, calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the schoolboy who said, “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.”
– Mark Twain, Following the Equator, ch. 12, “Pudd’nhead Wilson’s New Calendar” (1897)

Do you think nuns, priests, brothers, the pope, and the faithful laity just make this stuff up about hearing God’s voice and believing in him? For 2000 years, don’t you think that maybe there is something keeping us spiritually alive? This kind of thing just doesn’t happen by itself.

Do you think Muslim clerics just make it up about hearing Allah? People fool themselves all the time. It’s a major human trait. Many believe in the ‘tunnel of light’ thing when dying, but it has been shown to just be the brain reacting to extreme stress.

Next time you look through a Bible to prove how God is evil, why don’t you read through it with out malice. Read it like it’s just any other book and see if you feel the same about it.

What makes you think I haven’t?

Next time you look through a Bible to prove how God is good, why don’t you read through it with out blinders on. Read it like it’s just any other book and see if you feel the same about it.

 

[Monarchy]

Nan S:

Wow. I log off for a few days and look what happens in this thread…

Monarchy, I have no proof that you exist. You could just be the controversial internet alter-ego of a quiet housewife. Can you prove otherwise?

You could PM me your address and a secret code word, and I could travel to your house, ring your door bell, and shake your hand, telling you the code word so you would know it was me.

You’ve acknowledged the possibility that God could exist. But then you deny it because you have not seen convincing proof. It’s obvious that the proofs which convinced me to believe are deemed to be inadequate by you.

I would say this is a fair statement

So let’s try this from a different angle. How would you prove to me that God DOES NOT exist? What convinced you?

You can not show physical proof for any non-existential claim. Therefore logic dictates that the person making the claim needs to prove their assertion.

 

[Nan_S]

Monarchy:

Nan S:

Monarchy, I have no proof that you exist. You could just be the controversial internet alter-ego of a quiet housewife. Can you prove otherwise?

You could PM me your address and a secret code word, and I could travel to your house, ring your door bell, and shake your hand, telling you the code word so you would know it was me.

Yes, assuming no one else hacked into the the message, that could prove it. Tell me, short of seeing your face with my own eyes and shaking your hand, how else could you prove that you exist?

The equivalent answer to the existence of God is what happens the moment after our death. And when we die we WILL have that answer in person. The problem is that we have to make the choice to accept or reject God BEFORE we have that personal meeting.

Monarchy:

You can not show physical proof for any non-existential claim. Therefore logic dictates that the person making the claim needs to prove their assertion.

On the contrary, physical proof for non-existence of something is easy. One examines the various claims of existence, shows how and why they are untrue, and eventually is able to prove by a preponderance that the claimants are spurious. So, I ask you again, how would you prove to me that God DOES NOT exist? What claims have you examined and found to be false?

 

[Monarchy]

Nan S:

Yes, assuming no one else hacked into the the message, that could prove it. Tell me, short of seeing your face with my own eyes and shaking your hand, how else could you prove that you exist?

Gee, the fact that I am caring on a conversation with you online, which anyone who wants can access and read? I could call you on the telephone, etc…

The equivalent answer to the existence of God is what happens the moment after our death. And when we die we WILL have that answer in person. The problem is that we have to make the choice to accept or reject God BEFORE we have that personal meeting.

Please read:
jhuger.com/kisshankbutt.php

On the contrary, physical proof for non-existence of something is easy. One examines the various claims of existence, shows how and why they are untrue, and eventually is able to prove by a preponderance that the claimants are spurious.

Please read what I wrote, I said Physical Proof. What you just stated is logic, not physical proof. I can argue that santa doesn’t exist because for him to visit every house in the world he would have to travel at millions of miles per hour, etc… But I can not show physical evidence that he does not exist.

Put it another way. In a court of law, the onus of proof is on the prosecution to prove their assertion is true (this man murdered his wife, etc…) as they are making the assertion.

Put it even another way, Can you show proof that you don’t owe me a million dollars?

So, I ask you again, how would you prove to me that God DOES NOT exist? What claims have you examined and found to be false?

see above

 

[Nan_S]

Monarchy:

Nan S:

Tell me, short of seeing your face with my own eyes and shaking your hand, how else could you prove that you exist?

Gee, the fact that I am caring on a conversation with you online, which anyone who wants can access and read? I could call you on the telephone, etc…

None of that proves that you are whom you say you are, and not some imposter. You COULD exist, but I can’t be certain. The same problem occurs when a skeptic (you) asks a believer (me) for absolute, irrefutable proof that God exists.

On the other hand, I could prove that you did not exist if I traced your URL back to your origin PC and found that these messages were being typed by a group of 16-year-old boys.

Monarchy:

Nan S:

When we die we WILL have that answer in person. The problem is that we have to make the choice to accept or reject God BEFORE we have that personal meeting.

Please read: jhuger.com/kisshankbutt.php

That was so funny I forgot to laugh. Did you have a question?

Monarchy:

Please read what I wrote, I said Physical Proof. What you just stated is logic, not physical proof. I can argue that santa doesn’t exist because for him to visit every house in the world he would have to travel at millions of miles per hour, etc… But I can not show physical evidence that he does not exist.
Put it another way. In a court of law, the onus of proof is on the prosecution to prove their assertion is true (this man murdered his wife, etc…) as they are making the assertion.
Put it even another way, Can you show proof that you don’t owe me a million dollars?

Santa: 1. (AKA Saint Nicholas, bishop of Myra, died 345A.D.) Was a real person. His remains are entombed in Bari, Italy.
2. (Of the popular modern legend) Can be easily proven to be not real, by examining the **physical evidence **claims/locations/sightings and showing them to be all imposters or deliberate falsifications.

Tell me, what claims/locations/sightings of God, offered by legitimate religious authorities, have you examined and shown to be false? Can you name any? (I’m not talking about the spurious claims, like the guy who “saw” the face of Jesus on his burnt toast.)

Court of law: In AMERICAN courts the onus is on the prosecution. That is a unique Americanism, designed keep (most of) the innocent free at the price of letting the some of the guilty walk free. In many other lands the onus is on the defense. A guy can still be guilty, and the police know it, despite lack of procecutable evidence.

Million dollars: I can show you a notarized, paid promissory note, absolving me of any past or future claim. It would be as false as your claim that I DID owe you a million dollars, but there you have it.

Monarchy:

Nan S:

So, I ask you again, how would you prove to me that God DOES NOT exist? What claims have you examined and found to be false?

see above

Yet another dodge. Nice try. None of the above examples have anything to do with the existence or nonexistence of God.

It appears that I have no other choice but to believe this: You are not even attempting to prove the non-existence of God because you HAVE NOT examined any evidence and found it to be false.

 

[cynic]

The existence of God, or any supernatural being, is unfalsifiable, meaning that we can never disprove God, and Christians use this as proof that God must exist, when it is no such thing. Unfalsifiable assertions don’t help anyone, esp when arguing with people who don’t believe. They make christians look stupid. If Gods existence were obviouse to any rational person with an open heart, as you want to claim, (ie athiests are just sinners who don’t want to face it), then there would be no need for faith, we would all just go through the motions for fear of going to hell…

 

[Nan_S]

cynic:

The existence of God, or any supernatural being, is unfalsifiable, meaning that we can never disprove God, and Christians use this as proof that God must exist, when it is no such thing. Unfalsifiable assertions don’t help anyone, esp when arguing with people who don’t believe. They make christians look stupid.

Having acknowledged that you can not disprove the existence of God, how do you justify claiming there is no such thing? And, as you certainly do not want to look stupid yourself, surely you have evidence of some kind to support your unbelief???

 

[StratusRose]

Monarchy:

What makes you think I haven’t? I have prayed and haven yet to feel anything.

Ah yes the resiquite “why are you here?” post. I post here because I am defending atheism against the mistruths told about it here. The same way a catholic might post on a baptist board to defend the Catholisism when they start saying “catholics are idoloters”, etc.

I can show that my partner exists, I can touch her, pick her up etc… I have faith in things that can be shown to exist

There are those who scoff at the school boy, calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the schoolboy who said, “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.”
– Mark Twain, Following the Equator, ch. 12, “Pudd’nhead Wilson’s New Calendar” (1897)

Do you think Muslim clerics just make it up about hearing Allah? People fool themselves all the time. It’s a major human trait. Many believe in the ‘tunnel of light’ thing when dying, but it has been shown to just be the brain reacting to extreme stress.

What makes you think I haven’t?

Next time you look through a Bible to prove how God is good, why don’t you read through it with out blinders on. Read it like it’s just any other book and see if you feel the same about it.

You have an answer for everything. I feel sorry for you, it must take a lot of energy to be a malcontent.