Is the patriarchy a good thing?

[Edmundus1581]

Neithan:

I’m wary of people who say they are feminists now, in 2019. What it means now is equal outcome and even special privilege for women, to “correct” the injustice of the past, or balance the apparently inherent “male privilege” of the “patriarchy” which we are still living in somehow (we aren’t) or just general misandry and suspicion of men.

I know a lot of feminists who work overseas helping women and girls victimized by human traffickers, women who were victimized by ISIS and Boko Haram.

Injustice is alive and well even today. It may not be bad in the West but it is really bad in some parts of the world.

Feminists like to boost anti-male rhetoric by cherry picking female “victims” in other cultures, taking them completely out of context and it is very hard to answer them because we are simply unaware of the whole picture - and deliberately so.

Boko Haram in Nigeria is a classic case of feminist exploitation and distortion. We never heard of them until they kidnapped the girls. Up till then they practised Muslim chivalry of killing boys and men but letting women go, and the world wasn’t interested. To get attention they kidnapped 200 Christian girls and suddenly got the publicity they wanted.

I have a male friend who dated a Chinese women in China. When they got engaged she insisted that he give her access to his bank accounts for her to control his money and and be able to spend it on her relatives, at her discretion. This was non-negotiable because that’s how marriages work in China. We never hear about the powers women have in other cultures and would be counted as “abuse” in our own.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Even during the late 80s when I was trying to decide what to take at University, I was discouraged from thinking of engineering or the physical sciences.

I was encouraged to be a receptionist and secretary instead. That was more feminine.

That sounds like your family background, rather than society at large.

When I was at university in the late '70s there were young women in maths, computing and physical sciences. just continuing on from high school where girls also did maths and science. They were a minority, maybe 30%, but were treated like any others. Their gender was just not an issue and I never heard them mention it - apart from (in some cases) getting an unwanted excess of male attention.

In 40 years of feminism and “female empowerment” the proportions of women in STEM has hardly changed. Women are simply less interested and less suited ON AVERAGE, but there’s nothing stopping those who are and there hasn’t been for decades (at least forty and maybe fifty or sixty years). Marie Curie studied science at university in the late 1800’s.

 

[Sarcelle]

That sounds like your family background, rather than society at large.

Hmm, you assumed that the ones who did the discouraging was family.

It was not.

Also it’s a lot more common in society than you think.

It perplexes me that when we try to bring our experiences as women on this thread we are largely discounted.

 

[PetraG]

In 40 years of feminism and “female empowerment” the proportions of women in STEM has hardly changed. Women are simply less interested and less suited ON AVERAGE, but there’s nothing stopping those who are and there hasn’t been for decades (at least forty and maybe fifty or sixty years). Marie Curie studied science at university in the late 1800’s.

Where do you get these opinions? That’s simply not true. I cannot imagine that you have been working anywhere near a science-related field for the past 40 years. Not only has it changed in 40 years, but I have news for you: it is still changing.

On the other hand, I could actually imagine a man working in science being as oblivious to the sorts of experiences of being ignored and overlooked for no reason, such as my friend ran into. When you’re ignoring somebody, it is very possible to not notice you’re ignoring them. The person being ignored notices. Sometimes, the person blames the people ignoring her, and gets angry. Sometimes, she blames herself, and gets discouraged. It still happens, though, and unless something has changed the people who do it don’t even notice they’re doing it. Don’t tell me it doesn’t happen, though. I’ve seen it, over and over. Yes, it happens. It happens to women, it happens to non-whites. Pay attention, and you will see it, too. If you don’t pay attention, don’t feel too smug about never having seen it.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I grew up in the fifties. My dad was an engineer. My mom who was one of the smartest people I have ever known was a housewife. She had a college degree in English because when she said she wanted to be a doctor she was told med school was for men.
In the fifites all jobs except secretary bank teller store clerk nurse and teacher were for men.

Now the majority of students in professions are women and boys are falling behind in high school education. There is documented bias against men in university hiring. Perhaps we focus more attention on addressing current inequaluties damaging our sons rather than the endless mining of “grievances” in other times and other cultures.

 

[Sarcelle]

Sexism, like racism is still alive and well.

Just because it isn’t directed at you doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

 

[PetraG]

Now the majority of students in professions are women and boys are falling behind in high school education. There is documented bias against men in university hiring. Perhaps we focus more attention on addressing current inequaluties damaging our sons rather than the endless mining of “grievances” in other times and other cultures.

You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth. You said nothing had changed in 40 years.

Yes, I think there are problems with the educational model in terms of students who aren’t good at “sitting still,” whether male or female, but educators are trying to rectify that. If I were to say the major problem my male high school students had compared to their female peers, however, it would be the prevalence of video game addictions. The students at the high school I taught at worked on personal computers. It was a constant battle to keep students off of computer distractions, but the fraction of students with video game addictions slanted heavily towards the males. The young women were more addicted to social media. That might seem to be hardly better, but it doesn’t deliver the adrenaline rush. The social media users often addicts, too, but they don’t seem to have the same difficulty switching their attention back to class work.

Parents, if you want your sons to do well in school, do not let them get into video games. The longer you can delay it, the better. If they get to high school and they can’t compete with their peers, they find other things to do. I would suggest routing them towards using computers in other ways.

 

[blackforest]

Fair enough, but “self-fulfillment” represents only a limited number of women. My widowed-mom sister doesn’t show up at her job at every morning for “self-fulfillment,” although she’s lucky that she likes it. In other situations, sometimes it’s wiser for the woman to go to work and have Daddy home with the kids because she can pull in more money. We don’t know people’s individual situation, which makes generalizations all the more unrealistic.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Edmundus1581:

Now the majority of students in professions are women and boys are falling behind in high school education. There is documented bias against men in university hiring. Perhaps we focus more attention on addressing current inequaluties damaging our sons rather than the endless mining of “grievances” in other times and other cultures.

You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth. You said nothing had changed in 40 years.

The “professions” are not “STEM”.

The professions I was referring to particularly are those which are most lucrative and/or influential - law, medicine and education.

 

[blackforest]

I was just discussing this in another thread. Racism and sexism are as prevalent as ever. But because they’ve become stigmatized, (a good thing), nobody will actually own these attitudes.

Call someone out on in in 1951, the response would be, “Yea? So what?” Call someone out on it today, and you hear: “I’m not racist!” “So I’m racist just because I disagree with you?” “How dare you play the race/gender card?!”

 

[PetraG]

The “professions” are not “STEM”.

Medicine isn’t a STEM profession? Wow, medical students around the world will be surprised to learn that.

The 2017 class at Harvard Law was the first ever to reach 50% women students. According to the American Bar Association, about half of JDs are awarded to women. Women’s weekly salaries in law are about 80% of that for men. In the courts, over 60% of judges are men. Over 75% of Congress is male.
(https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/women/current_glance_2019.pdf)

In universities, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, "In fall 2016, of the 1.5 million faculty in degree-granting postsecondary institutions, 53 percent were full time and 47 percent were part time. Faculty include professors, associate professors, assistant professors, instructors, lecturers, assisting professors, adjunct professors, and interim professors.

Of all full-time faculty in degree-granting postsecondary institutions in fall 2016, 41 percent were White males; 35 percent were White females; 6 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander males; 4 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander females; 3 percent each were Black males, Black females, and Hispanic males; and 2 percent were Hispanic females.1 Those who were American Indian/Alaska Native and those who were of Two or more races each made up 1 percent or less of full-time faculty in these institutions.

The racial and ethnic and sex distribution of faculty varied by academic rank. For example, among full-time professors, 55 percent were White males, 27 percent were White females, 7 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander males, and 3 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander females. Black males, Black females, and Hispanic males each accounted for 2 percent of full-time professors. The following groups each made up 1 percent or less of the total number of full-time professors: Hispanic females, American Indian/Alaska Native individuals, and individuals of Two or more races. In comparison, among full-time assistant professors, 35 percent were White males, 38 percent were White females, 7 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander males, 6 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander females, and 4 percent were Black females. Black males, Hispanic males, and Hispanic females each accounted for 3 percent of full-time assistant professors, while American Indian/Alaska Native individuals and individuals of Two or more races each made up 1 percent or less of the total number of full-time assistant professors." (Fast Facts: Race/ethnicity of college faculty (61))

Tell us again how women are “taking over”?

 

[niceatheist]

But it’s the example you used as though all women in the workplace wear red lipstick to simulate arousal…in the workplace and therefore it should be banned. Women (and men) can wear makeup that looks natural and polished. A lot of makeup is made with ingredients that are good for the skin or with sunblock.

Good grief. I can’t imagine any sane CEO telling his female staff members that they can’t wear red lipstick.

Perhaps the alternative is that men learn how to behave themselves at work, and not view a woman wanting to look her best as some sort of “come hither”. The excuses men make for their own bad behavior just repulse me.

You know what. If a naked fashion model were to stand at my office door, I could actually restrain myself from trying to copulate with her. I’m an adult, not an emotionally stunted bag of hormones.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Edmundus1581:

Now the majority of students in professions are women and boys are falling behind in high school education. There is documented bias against men in university hiring. Perhaps we focus more attention on addressing current inequaluties damaging our sons rather than the endless mining of “grievances” in other times and other cultures.

Yes, I think there are problems with the educational model in terms of students who aren’t good at “sitting still,” whether male or female, but educators are trying to rectify that. If I were to say the major problem my male high school students had compared to their female peers, however, it would be the prevalence of video game addictions. The students at the high school I taught at worked on personal computers. It was a constant battle to keep students off of computer distractions, but the fraction of students with video game addictions slanted heavily towards the males. The young women were more addicted to social media. That might seem to be hardly better, but it doesn’t deliver the adrenaline rush. The social media users often addicts, too, but they don’t seem to have the same difficulty switching their attention back to class work.

Parents, if you want your sons to do well in school, do not let them get into video games. The longer you can delay it, the better. If they get to high school and they can’t compete with their peers, they find other things to do. I would suggest routing them towards using computers in other ways.

That may well be a significant explanation for where education is failing boys and young men. Thank you for your observations as a teacher.

My point about “gender inequality” in higher education is more to challenge the feminist method of plucking convenient imbalances and assuming “patriarchy” is the culprit.

Still, we do have a serious, and possibly “grave” problem with boys falling behind in education, whatever the causes. It needs to be addressed but isn’t even being raised in politics or society.

 

[niceatheist]

Fair enough, but “self-fulfillment” represents only a limited number of women. My widowed-mom sister doesn’t show up at her job at every morning for “self-fulfillment,” although she’s lucky that she likes it. In other situations, sometimes it’s wiser for the woman to go to work and have Daddy home with the kids because she can pull in more money. We don’t know people’s individual situation, which makes generalizations all the more unrealistic.

I’ve always gone by the philosophy that my job is just a job. I look for fulfillment in my personal pursuits and interests. Not that I want to work at a horrible job, or at one that I don’t enjoy or find some sense of accomplishment in, but I’ve done some pretty menial jobs in my time (early in my fatherhood, to make ends meet, I actually delivered flyers two evenings a week for extra cash, so my wife could stay at home with the kids).

 

[Edmundus1581]

The 2017 class at Harvard Law was the first ever to reach 50% women students. According to the American Bar Association, about half of JDs are awarded to women. Women’s weekly salaries in law are about 80% of that for men. In the courts, over 60% of judges are men. Over 75% of Congress is male.
(https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/women/current_glance_2019.pdf)

In universities, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, "In fall 2016, of the 1.5 million faculty in degree-granting postsecondary institutions, 53 percent were full time and 47 percent were part time. Faculty include professors, associate professors, assistant professors, instructors, lecturers, assisting professors, adjunct professors, and interim professors.

Of all full-time faculty in degree-granting postsecondary institutions in fall 2016, 41 percent were White males; 35 percent were White females; 6 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander males; 4 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander females; 3 percent each were Black males, Black females, and Hispanic males; and 2 percent were Hispanic females.1 Those who were American
…
The racial and ethnic and sex distribution of faculty varied by academic rank. For example, among full-time professors, 55 percent were White males, 27 percent were White females, 7 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander males, and 3 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander females. Black males, Black females, and Hispanic males each accounted for 2 percent of full-time professors. The following groups each made up 1 percent or less of the total number of full-time professors: Hispanic females, American Indian/Alaska Native individuals, and individuals of Two or more races. In comparison, among full-time assistant professors, 35 percent were White males, 38 percent were White females, 7 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander males, 6 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander females, and 4 percent were Black females. Black males, Hispanic males, and Hispanic females each accounted for 3 percent of full-time assistant professors, while American Indian/Alaska Native individuals and individuals of Two or more races each made up 1 percent or less of the total number of full-time assistant professors." (Fast Facts: Race/ethnicity of college faculty (61))

Tell us again how women are “taking over”?

Those are all faculty numbers.

Immediately after I posted I attempted to edit my post to clarify that I was talking about student numbers, but CAF prevented me because of edit counts.

Still, I think that looking back you’ll see that I referred to numbers of students and bias in faculty hiring. Current numbers so not reflect current or recent bias.

Cornell University, 2015

"When all else is equal between highly qualified candidates for entry-level faculty positions, professors in academic science overwhelmingly prefer women over men, "

 

[Edmundus1581]

ps. STEM as normally used does not include medicine.

"STEM - science, technology, engineering, and mathematics - is the acronym used by educators, researchers, and funding agencies focused on fundamental science. "

Do you consider medicine and the allied health professions within the STEM disciplines? | ScienceBlogs

I posed this question earlier today on Twitter and have already garnered a good number of responses. STEM - science, technology, engineering, and mathematics - is the acronym used by educators, researchers, and funding agencies focused on fundamental science. The US National Science Foundation...

scienceblogs.com

Some think it should, but that’s the normal use and how I used it.

 

[edwest211]

Thank you for this very appropriate warning.

 

[edwest211]

This suspicion of men was artificially created by radical feminists like Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan during Second-Wave Feminism. It was carefully designed to destroy the family, to inflict severe damage to honest and good relationships between men and women. Men are the eternal enemies class and women are portrayed as the eternal victims class. This is obvious Marxist class warfare.

When women finally achieve the more than equal status that these radicals want, what then? They’ll have to find something else to tear down.

 

[PetraG]

That may well be a significant explanation for where education is failing boys and young men. Thank you for your observations as a teacher.

My point about “gender inequality” in higher education is more to challenge the feminist method of plucking convenient imbalances and assuming “patriarchy” is the culprit.

Still, we do have a serious, and possibly “grave” problem with boys falling behind in education, whatever the causes. It needs to be addressed but isn’t even being raised in politics or society.

I believe the author who says the cause is students who fall behind in literacy in early grades, conclude that “school is for the smart kids, not me,” and check out. Far more of those students are boys than girls, but helping those students would help not just those boys and girls but our whole society. We can’t afford to limit anyone’s opportunities before they even get to high school. Send a student who is poor at reading, writing and abstract thinking to high school, though, and even the STEM fields will be very difficult for them.

One writer who holds this is the pattern holding too many boys back is Richard Whitmire, author of Why Boys Fail. Yes, boys do conclude “school is for girls” and not only give themselves permission to stop trying but also ridicule other boys who are good at school as not being masculine. The bigger problem is when their teachers believe these sexist stereotypes, too.

Whitmore holds that there are people in academics who see “advancement” as a zero-sum game in which helping boys keeps help from getting to girls. I do not disagree with that assessment, unfortunately. I have run into that kind of thinking. I think it is both much more just and much more reasonable to look for the reasons that one gender suffers from some particular problem and then try to rectify those reasons for everyone having those problems, whether male or female. Are girls not entering discussions because they’re shy? Find ways to encourage the shy students. Just because the first kid to answer is a guy doesn’t mean all the guys are joining in the discussion.

I have been to college admissions meetings for parents in which boys were singled out as lacking the motivation and organizational skills to get their college application materials in on time. I was appalled. If the tables were turned, there is no way that kind of language would be used in a blanket way to describe the girls. Why? Because it is the lack of motivation and organizational skills that is the problem, not their gender. We weren’t talking about competing to see who could get away with wearing the shortest skirt, which actually would be a female-only problem. We were talking about a problem that was only more common among the young men at the school, not one that was restricted to them only or that described all of the young men at the school. I think the students of both sexes would have been offended to hear the problem put that way, and I told the presenter as much.

 

[blackforest]

They want to
destroy everything that we believe in family, faith, even our
identity as men and women.

Because I want to make it easier for rape survivors to come forward? Because I’d like a world in which women abroad don’t get acid splashed in their faces for dressing incorrectly? Because I’m outraged by the egregiously high maternal and infant mortality rates in the U.S.? Because I’m sickened by unscrupulous abortionists like Gosnell who exploit and butcher women? Because I’m furious about forced sterilization campaigns in Peru? Because I’d like to see more empowering portrayals of women in ads than just sick weaklings in bikinis? Because I want my daughter to grow up in a world that esteems her brain and not her body?

Seriously. Tell me more about how I - and women like me - are destroying your family.