Is the Qur'an wrong about the trinity?

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Joseph_Alison:

Rodrigo:

This is not a reflection of you personally, Joseph, but I note the Muslims here like to home in on one or two ENGLISH words to try to make it seem as if the Arabic meaning is totally different.

My mother tongue is Arabic; I assure you I know what I am talking about.

I’m not questioning your knowledge of Arabic. I’m merely pointing out Muslims here don’t see the argument, they home in on an ENGLISH word and then argue it to death. Like this example of min dooni. You did say that the word ‘besides’ is wrong and alternatives are ‘in addition to’, ‘other than’ etc. These are just English synonyms. For lack of space I only included one translation. Would you be happy if I picked another translation with the phrase ‘in addition to’ or ‘other than’ in place of ‘besides’?

What does it matter anyway? The point (and you have missed it) is that Muhammad thought Jesus will deny teaching the people to worship himself and his mother as Gods. This he never did.

Joseph_Alison:

Rodrigo:

Besides is an English synonym of ‘other than’, ‘in addition to’.

It is also a synonym of ‘apart from’ like when I say “Nobody knows besides (apart from) Rodrigo”

Hmmm… thanks for proving my point

Nobody knows besides Rodrigo – meaning only Rodrigo knows.
Nobody knows other than Rodrigo – meaning only Rodrigo knows.
Nobody knows apart from Rodrigo – meaning only Rodrigo knows.

Synonyms to me. The ‘in addition to’ is inapplicable because you used the negative – ‘nobody’.

Joseph_Alison:

Rodrigo:

Go and check all the Arabic translations – the meaning is unchanged no matter what ENGLISH word they chose to convey the meaning of min dooni

If you take -whenever Allah (SWT) is cited- the term min dooni to mean “in addition to” or “along with”, you will be automatically talking about idolatry and not equality. Allah (SWT) is the Creator, everything else is created and not worthy of worship or adoration.

That’s your opinion devoid of evidence. I will use an analogy: if your parents take you in addition to your brother to the zoo – are they not equally taking the both of you? Or do they take you more than your brother?

You already believe that Allah is the superior of Jesus and Mary. But some other verse says Allah is only the THIRD of the Three. Meaning he is inferior, not superior. At best he is equal to the other two.

Joseph_Alison:

The polemics want desperately to make the term min dooni in 5:116 to mean equality, and it is simply not.

See the verse about Allah being the THIRD of the three. Yup – Allah is the inferior part of the three.

So far it is only your opinion that Jesus, Mary and Allah cannot be a trinity because Allah is superior to Jesus and Mary. Nothing more.

Joseph_Alison:

In 5:116, Allah (SWT) -in the Judgment Day- is simply relaying an accusation made by the men towards Jesus (PBUH); actually what they accused him for never took place and he rightfully and eloquently denied the charge against him.

Hmmm? Which men? Not in the Quran, bud.

Where’s the men in 5:116 who accuse Jesus?

Joseph_Alison:

How can polemics say Muhammad (PBUH) got the trinity wrong or don’t know what Christians worship when the event did not even take place but is only an accusation made the Judgment Day, and which Jesus (PBUH) himself refuted in Allah’s foreknowledge?

I’ve already explained. It doesn’t matter whether the accusation by Allah is on Judgment Day because the action was supposed to have already occurred – i.e. in Jesus’s lifetime. How can Jesus tell the people when he is dead?

Joseph_Alison:

Moreover, in 5:116, Allah (SWT) is talking about himself as to be The God, how can polemics say that in 5:116 Muhammad (PBUH) got the trinity wrong?, Do polemics believe Allah (SWT) to be The God? Do polemics believe Allah (SWT) to be the Father?
The polemics are breaking down opened doors, trying to find a fault where it is not! This is called desperation.

The God as part of Three. It is the same with the Christian Trinity. You are assuming that THE God means it is singular and therefore rule out a Trinity. But THE GOD asked Jesus whether he TAUGHT (past tense) the people to take himself and Mary as Gods IN ADDITION TO The God.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Joseph_Alison:

So what is a trinity except ‘Three’? So if you have Jesus and Mary as gods in addition to/other than/as well as/besides God – don’t you have a trinity?

No, it is not trinity. They are not His equal. Allah (SWT) created both of them, how can they be equal to Him?
That is only your opinion. In the Christian doctrine, God the Father created Jesus too, and still Jesus is part of the Trinity. So your argument is disproven.

Joseph_Alison:

The verse 5:116 is an open window on the unseen, it is not there to be mocked, but a reminder on what will take place for a surety: Jesus (PBUH) will deny to have told men to take him and his mother as gods apart from Allah (SWT). But don’t believe my word, check for yourself if Jesus ever explicitly said “I am God”.

Thanks for proving our point. It is not Jesus that is in question, but Muhammad for making up this verse. We know Muhammad made up this verse because a true God would know that Jesus NEVER taught anyone to worship himself and Mary as gods, much less in addition to God.

Joseph_Alison:

When Allah (SWT) uses the past tense about events yet to happen, it means it is that way that those events will take place. It is an open window on the future. He is allowing us to “see through” what is waiting for us down the road.

Did he tell you or did you just make that up?

Let’s see; future tense in Quran = future. Past tense in Quran = future. Present tense?

Hasta la vista,
Rodrigo

 

[exoflare]

Rodrigo Bivar:

That is only your opinion. In the Christian doctrine, God the Father created Jesus too, and still Jesus is part of the Trinity. So your argument is disproven.

I know this isn’t too relevant to the heart of the conversation, but I had to say this. Jesus wasn’t “created” according to Christian doctrine. He always exists in the eternal realm as God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. The point where Jesus was conceived was merely that point in time where the Son chose to manifest Himself as a human being in our realm of physical space and time. Even if anyone doesn’t understand this, I just wanted to clarify that. Like I said, it’s probably not essential to the main discussion anyway so pardon the interruption and please do continue…

 

[JimG]

exoflare:

I know this isn’t too relevant to the heart of the conversation, but I had to say this. Jesus wasn’t “created” according to Christian doctrine. He always exists in the eternal realm as God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. The point where Jesus was conceived was merely that point in time where the Son chose to manifest Himself as a human being in our realm of physical space and time. Even if anyone doesn’t understand this, I just wanted to clarify that. Like I said, it’s probably not essential to the main discussion anyway so pardon the interruption and please do continue…

Actually, I think it probably is essential to the discusssion. It seems pointless to discuss the Trinity without first having an understanding of the nature of God.
Since Jesus was clearly human, this puts us into a premature discussion of the hypostatic union without first discussing the nature of God in His essence.

I still do not understand whether Islam believes in a God who is matter or who is spirit. If God is material in His essence, of course there could be no Trinity because a material essence cannot be divided except into parts. God would then be divided in His essence–an impossibility.

If God is Spirit, then we can discuss the attributes of a perfect Spirit, and whether He can know himself, and whether that knowledge can be Perfect, and whether God’s self knowledge is so perfect as to contain his every single attribute.

That would be a good starting point.

 

[exoflare]

JimG:

Actually, I think it probably is essential to the discusssion. It seems pointless to discuss the Trinity without first having an understanding of the nature of God.
Since Jesus was clearly human, this puts us into a premature discussion of the hypostatic union without first discussing the nature of God in His essence.

I still do not understand whether Islam believes in a God who is matter or who is spirit. If God is material in His essence, of course there could be no Trinity because a material essence cannot be divided except into parts. God would then be divided in His essence–an impossibility.

If God is Spirit, then we can discuss the attributes of a perfect Spirit, and whether He can know himself, and whether that knowledge can be Perfect, and whether God’s self knowledge is so perfect as to contain his every single attribute.

That would be a good starting point.

I stated that it probably wouldn’t be essential to the discussion, because the topic is the difference between what the Quran supposed was the Trinity and what Christians hold to be the Trinity. The difference is clear enough, even without going into metaphysics or terminology. Basically…

Quran states:
Christian Trinity (Three “Gods”) = Mary, Jesus, and “God”
Christians state:
Christian Trinity (ONE God) = Father, Son and Holy Ghost

I completely agree with what you said, though, about discussing Muslims’ belief in God’s nature. That probably would be the best starting point, as they seem to refer to God’s transcendence only when it appears to suit them best. When criticizing the “logic” of the Trinity, however, suddenly they speak of God as being confined by the limits of space, time and human understanding.

 

[exoflare]

Ghosty:

You quoted LANDOVER BAPTIST!!! That’s a PARODY website! It’s a JOKE!

Oh man, I never thought I’d live to see the day that Landover Baptist was quoted as an authoritative response. I might just send a link to this thread to them.

HAHAHAHA!!! :crying::crying:
That is too funny! I can’t believe I didn’t notice that post til just now!

Ooow, my sides… groan…

 

[r.gonzales]

exoflare:

Quran states:
Christian Trinity (Three “Gods”) = Mary, Jesus, and “God”

no it doesn’t. no where in the Quran is there a statement saying that the trinity consists of these three.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r.gonzales:

no it doesn’t. no where in the Quran is there a statement saying that the trinity consists of these three.

How do you explain 5:116 of Allah asking Jesus if he said to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as two gods min dooni Allah?’

How many gods/purported gods are there in this verse?

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

How do you explain 5:116 of Allah asking Jesus if he said to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as two gods min dooni Allah?’

How many gods/purported gods are there in this verse?

refer to my posts above.

you can also refer to muhammad mohar ali’s treatment of the issue in sirat al-nabi and the orientalists pgs. 293-295.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Okay, I will look at your post above.

r.gonzales:

christians say that God is made up of three persons, the father, the son, and the holy spirit. it is agreed that the father refers to God in heaven, the son refers to jesus, and the holy spirit to the holy spirit which eminates from both. whatever way you look at it, there are three entities, three persons, three individuals.

I don’t know why the Catholics haven’t pulled you up on this. I think you misunderstand the Trinity.

r.gonzales:

the Quran states, 4:171 – o people of the Book, do not exaggerate in your religion, nor say about Allah except the truth. certainly the anointed one, 'eesa son of maryam, is Allah’s messenger, His word which He cast to maryam, and a spirit from Him. so believe in Allah and His messengers, and do not say three. cease, [it is] better for you. certainly Allah is a single god, glorified is He that there be for Him a son. His is whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth, and it is sufficient with Allah as a Trustee. and: 5:73 – those who said, “surely Allah is the third of three,” certainly have disbelieved. and there is not any god except a single god. and if they did not cease from what they say, certainly a painful punishment will touch those who disbelieved among them.

I’ll leave the verses as references.

r.gonzales:

no where does it say that Allah was one of three gods, one of three beings, one of three anything. it simply says one of three. full stop.

Not true. It follows in 5:73.
A. Surely Allah is the third of Three….

B. And there is not any god except a SINGLE GOD and who says otherwise is going to be painfully punished (my paraphrase).

B. follows from A. Ergo Allah is one of three gods.

r.gonzales:

so while you say God is one in three, you still hold that God is made up of three “persons”: the father, the son and the holy spirit. being that the bible quotes jesus as referring to the father as the One who is in the heavens, who sent him, who he supplicated to and begged, we will say that the father is Allah. and Allah is still, according to your definition of God being three persons, the third of three.

Yes, but that doesn’t answer 5:116 – why would Allah ask Jesus if he taught the people to take himself and his mother as GODS min dooni Allah?

Aren’t there three gods/purported gods here?

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Rodrigo;

It doesn’t matter when the event is supposed to occur. The verse is in the future tense. That is already acknowledged in the translation. Maulana Ali And when Allah WILL SAY

It is the literal meaning which is correct. The verse 5:116 starts with a paste tense, “ith qala Allahu…” The word “ith” is an Arabic term which when used before a verb indicates a past event; “qala” means “said”.

The future would be “sayaqulu Allahu”. The word “sa” in sayakulu is a contraction of the word “sawfa” and is always joined with the verb to form one single word; yakulu means say.
Example: “sayajzee Allahu al shshakireena (Qura’n 3:144) meaning “Allah will reward swiftly those who serve him with gratitude”

The translators used the future tense only because they want to show straightaway from the beginning the context during which the event will take place (i.e. the Judgment Day, a future event in our dimension). The context is visible in verse 5:119 “God said: "That (is a) day, the truthful their truthfulness benefits (them)…”

We have many examples in the holy Qur’an where Allah (SWT) uses the past tense for future events yet to come in our dimension, they concern the Judgment Day or the Day After in paradise and hell.

Allah (SWT) does not prophesy, like saying “In the Day after, such a thing **will **take place”, to His Majesty “such a thing **happened **in the Day after”. The Day after is His own creation; He knows what will take place during that Day and He speaks of events yet to take place for us, as events of the past. It is a certainty.

I come back to the question why Allah (SWT) is asking Jesus (PBUH) about something He should have known.

In verse 5:117, Jesus (PBUH) said “When Thou didst take me up …”
In verse 3:55 "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme…” In this verse, Allah (SWT) testified Himself that BEFORE he was raised up, Jesus (PBUH) did not said such a thing as reported in 5:116; obviously he could not have said it AFTER he was taken up! And Jesus (PBUH), for his defense, took the moment he was taken up as a reference, because he had the assurance from Allah (as shown in 3:55) that he did not say so. Conclusion: His deification by people happened AFTER he was raised up, and he will be (was in Allah’s foreknowledge) accused in the Day of Judgment, but will defend (defended in Allah’s foreknowledge) himself eloquently.

What you have to explain is why Allah would ask Jesus whether he told the people to worship him and Mary as Gods min dooni Allah. That would surely be in the past – during Jesus’s lifetime.

Jesus (PBUH) did not say such a thing and Allah (SWT) -as I pointed out above- testified to that in verse 3:55. The saying in 5:116 is of those who will say (said in Allah’s forekowledge) Jesus (PBUH) told them so; to which Allah (SWT) called (will call) him to defend himself and it will happen (happened) during the Judgment Day.

We know Jesus DID NOT tell the people to worship him and Mary as Gods. This is because it is clearly against his teaching in the Bible and also because he denied it in the Qur’an. What is important is that Muhammad thought the Trinity comprised of Jesus, Mary and Allah (being the third of three – 5:73)

A simple reading of the Qur’an clearly shows the opposite of what you are saying. Throughout the entire Qur’an, it is emphasized that Jesus (PBUH) and his mother were human beings like any other human being. “Say: “Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth?” (Qur’an 5:17). If He so willed He could have destroy them, How could they be His peers?
And also: “The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; messengers before him had indeed passed away. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We make the messages clear to them! Then behold, how they are turned away!” (Qur’an 3:75) How can someone who eats food to survive, be like The One Who created that food. Allah (SWT) was providing both for Mary and her son.
The claim that Muhammad (PBUH) thought the trinity to be comprised of Jesus, Mary and Allah does not stand on its feet and does not stand the weakest scrutiny.

Continued…

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Continued from above.

It is clear in the Sirah that the supposed revelation from Allah was after the visit by the three Christians who told Muhammad about the Trinity. Clearly, either the Christians were pulling his leg, did not understand doctrine, or were heretics.

If it is in the Sirah and reached you, it is because Muhammad (PBUH) had nothing to hide. He was a public man in all the fullness of the term. The smallest details of his life are known. Never in humankind’s entire history a man’s life was so scrutinized, and his sayings and deeds recorded and made public to such an extent as with the beloved Prophet (PBUH) . He was a messenger to all humankind, idolaters and people of book alike, he dealt with everyone one accordingly and in the open.

There is no logical reason why Allah should ask Jesus IN THE FUTURE about something he obviously didn’t do in the PAST.

I addressed this above. The FUTURE is our future, for Allah’s foreknowledge it is PAST thing. As for Jesus (PBUH) answering Allah’s question, it was (will be) done after people’s false accusation during the Judgment Day. I covered that.

The only plausible reason is that Muhammad needed to reconcile to his followers the Christian doctrine of the Trinity in a monotheistic religion that was succeeded by Islam.

Please read the holy Qur’an and you will notice how many calls “O! People of the book” are there. These calls are there because Allah (SWT) wants to attract the attention of the People of the book, to show them a path that is straight and to tell them amongst others:
"O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way. (Qur’an 5:77).

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

inJESUS:

al-Qasas ayat 23-25

Wa lamma warada maa’a Madyana wajada alayhi ummat min an-nas yasquuna wa wajada min duni him imra’atyani tadhudan. Qala maa khatbukuma? Qalata laa nasqii hatta yusdi ar-ri’a wa abuna shaykh kabir. Fa saqaa la huma thumma tawallaa ila az-zilli fa qala Rabbi inni li maa anzalta ilayya min khayrin faqir. Fa ja’at hu ihda huma tamshi ala istihya. Qalat inna abi yad’uka li yajziyaka ajra maa saqayta la na…

And when he [Moses] came to the watering-place of Midian, he found at it a group of people taking water and he found **as well as ** them two women holding back. He said, “What do you two have to say?” They said, “We cannot take water until the shepherds go away and our father is a very old man”. So he took water for them two then he turned back to the shade and he said, “My Lord and Sustainer, surely I am one who needs what Thou mayest send to me of the good”. Then one of the two (women) came towards him, walking shyly. She said, “My father invites you so that he may give you a wage for taking the water for us”…

Salaam inJESUS;
Please check the translations of the above verse. No one of the translators used “as well as”. The women in this verse could not take water because they could not mingle with sheperds and were sitting or standing apart from (away from) the people until Moses came and used his force to take water for them.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[exoflare]

Joseph_Alison:

A simple reading of the Qur’an clearly shows the opposite of what you are saying. Throughout the entire Qur’an, it is emphasized that Jesus (PBUH) and his mother were human beings like any other human being. “Say: “Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth?” (Qur’an 5:17). If He so willed He could have destroy them, How could they be His peers?

What I’m pretty sure Rodrigo meant was, where does Jesus (as claimed by Christians!) tell anybody to worship Mary as a God?

 

[exoflare]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam inJESUS;
Please check the translations of the above verse. No one of the translators used “as well as”. The women in this verse could not take water because they could not mingle with sheperds and were sitting or standing apart from (away from) the people until Moses came and used his force to take water for them.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Most of them say “besides them” and “apart from them”. It’s the same thing. What is the issue here, then?

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Booklover:

Joseph, we’ve heard all these allegations about Jesus not being God ad nauseam!

Salaam Vickie;
Nice to hear from you.
I apologize to you if I offended you, not my intent really; I am simply responding. I did not start it. However, I am expressing my Muslim view of Jesus (PBUH), which obviously does not please you; what is being said about Islam does not please me as well, but I choose to come here and I expect the unexpected, that is why it takes a lot to offend or disgust me.

Give us more room in your heart by understanding where we come from, and please do engage in the discussions, soon you will get used to it. Religious discussions can turn very nasty, but I think everyone here has the potential to control his anger and humble himself.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[exoflare]

Joseph_Alison:

If it is in the Sirah and reached you, it is because Muhammad (PBUH) had nothing to hide. He was a public man in all the fullness of the term. The smallest details of his life are known. Never in humankind’s entire history a man’s life was so scrutinized, and his sayings and deeds recorded and made public to such an extent as with the beloved Prophet (PBUH) . He was a messenger to all humankind, idolaters and people of book alike, he dealt with everyone one accordingly and in the open.

Now you’re pulling everybody’s leg.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

exoflare:

What I’m pretty sure Rodrigo meant was, where does Jesus (as claimed by Christians!) tell anybody to worship Mary as a God?

Salaam exoflare;
Jesus (PBUH) never said so. It is simply an accusation made against him by the people the Day of Judgment. I think I covered that in my last post.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

exoflare:

Now you’re pulling everybody’s leg.

Thanks exoflare. You already know that Muslims use dishonesty.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[exoflare]

Joseph_Alison:

Thanks exoflare. You already know that Muslims use dishonesty.

Salaam.
Joseph.

What are you basing the claim that every detail of Mohammed’s life was scrutinized and recorded, then? That’s impossible.