Is the Qur'an wrong about the trinity?

[inJESUS]

i found something interesting today; the Ebionites, the Trinity is understood by them as follows:
the gnostic torah’s favor dominated their doctrines, especially its “angelic language” (logha mala’ikiyya) on the Trinity: God’s word and the Holy Spirit are 2 spirits of 2 angels very close to God; God’s word is a spirit from God sent to Mary and this is the quran’s view as welll;
The Corinthinans refered to the the Holy Spirit as female because the word “spirit” in hebrew is feminin, Abivan ( a heretic)says : at the day of Jesus’ baptism, the Holy Spirit, HIS MOTHER said: this is my beloved son…so in hebrew, the word Spirit is feminin, thats why these heretics considered it a female, the “mother” of Jesus; that may be the reason of the quranic soura about Mary…this is not the only thing mohammad took obviously;
if we compare the heretic teachings of the Ebionite-nasara, the Corinthian-nasara, we find out that a lot of their doctrines are in the quran:
1- the way of revelation
2- their doctine about prophethood and “the book”
3-the universe ( 7 heavens)
4-their material paradise is the same as in quran
5-doctrine of angels
6- their doctrine about Jesus
7-the trinity explanation
8-Holy Spirit is Gabriel
9-the crucifiction of Jesus ( same as quran)
10-resurrection of Jesus ( same as quran)
11-the return of Jesus ( same as quran)
12-adoption is forbidden
13- wine is forbidden ( unlike jews and christians)
14- celibacy not allowed
and many many more are the same in quran;

Hence the quran is nothing but a heretic christian teaching; mohammad agreed with the “nation of the middle”, “oummat al wasat” which is nothing more than the christians who believe in Jesus and Moses at the same time but who deviated from the orthodox teachings.

 

[inJESUS]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam inJESUS;
Please check the translations of the above verse. No one of the translators used “as well as”. The women in this verse could not take water because they could not mingle with sheperds and were sitting or standing apart from (away from) the people until Moses came and used his force to take water for them.

Salaam.
Joseph.

my translation is taken from a muslim site.

 

[Booklover]

inJESUS:

i found something interesting today; the Ebionites, the Trinity is understood by them as follows:
the gnostic torah’s favor dominated their doctrines, especially its “angelic language” (logha mala’ikiyya) on the Trinity: God’s word and the Holy Spirit are 2 spirits of 2 angels very close to God; God’s word is a spirit from God sent to Mary and this is the quran’s view as welll;
The Corinthinans refered to the the Holy Spirit as female because the word “spirit” in hebrew is feminin, Abivan ( a heretic)says : at the day of Jesus’ baptism, the Holy Spirit, HIS MOTHER said: this is my beloved son…so in hebrew, the word Spirit is feminin, thats why these heretics considered it a female, the “mother” of Jesus; that may be the reason of the quranic soura about Mary…this is not the only thing mohammad took obviously;
if we compare the heretic teachings of the Ebionite-nasara, the Corinthian-nasara, we find out that a lot of their doctrines are in the quran:
1- the way of revelation
2- their doctine about prophethood and “the book”
3-the universe ( 7 heavens)
4-their material paradise is the same as in quran
5-doctrine of angels
6- their doctrine about Jesus
7-the trinity explanation
8-Holy Spirit is Gabriel
9-the crucifiction of Jesus ( same as quran)
10-resurrection of Jesus ( same as quran)
11-the return of Jesus ( same as quran)
12-adoption is forbidden
13- wine is forbidden ( unlike jews and christians)
14- celibacy not allowed
and many many more are the same in quran;

Hence the quran is nothing but a heretic christian teaching; mohammad agreed with the “nation of the middle”, “oummat al wasat” which is nothing more than the christians who believe in Jesus and Moses at the same time but who deviated from the orthodox teachings.

Can you give us the link to this info!

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

Booklover:

Can you give us the link to this info!

Vickie

unfortunatly, it is a lenghthy book written in arabic by an arab author; he explaines all the doctrines of the heretics and shows how then ended up in quran, using the quran itself…it is interesting that quran never refers to Christians as “christians” but as “nasara”…within these nasara, there are the orthodox and the heretics; mohammad copied all the heretical teachings, considering these heretics “nation of the Middle” between jews and real christians…i dont think the book is translated yet; maybe you can look for such books in english…

 

[discipleofJesus]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity
newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

The Divinity of Christ
catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Chirst.asp

The Eternal Sonship of Christ
catholic.com/library/Eternal_Sonship_of_Christ.asp

God Has No Body
catholic.com/library/God_Has_No_Body.asp

God in Three Persons
catholic.com/library/God_in_Three_Persons.asp

The One True God
catholic.com/library/One_True_God.asp

The Trinity
catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp

Catholic Answers: Library: God & Christ
catholic.com/library/god_christ.asp

 

[inJESUS]

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil‑doers there will be no helpers. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful (Surah 5:72-74

again, allah/mohammad is mistaken:

We do NOT say allah is the Messiah
We do NOT associate “partners” with God
We do NOT believe that God is the third of 3 (gods)

allah should have known better.

 

[r.gonzales]

firstly, differentiation and distinction needs to be made here regarding the words “god”, “God”, and “Allah”. the word God as i mentioned in my above post refers to “the being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe”; it is not His name. “god” refers to something that is worshipped, idolized, or followed. according to islamic doctrine and beliefs Allah is God’s proper name. the marjoity christian concept of “God” is that there One God, yet this God is comprised of three “persons”: father, son and holy spirit.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Not true. It follows in 5:73.
A. Surely Allah is the third of Three….

B. And there is not any god except a SINGLE GOD and who says otherwise is going to be painfully punished (my paraphrase).

B. follows from A. Ergo Allah is one of three gods.

what you have here is a logical inference. what i stated still holds true; the Quran does not say except that “those who said that ‘surely, Allah is the third of three,’ have disbelieved.” it does not say “three [whatever]”. it simply says “three” full stop, and has been left open for a reason.

as for what Allah states after mentioning this, that there is not any god except a single god, then to understand this statement properly, first see my comment concerning the word ilah in my first post to this thread, as well as what i mentioned at the beginning of this post. this statement is an allusion to the christians’ taking objects of worship besides Allah.

something else to note of is that this statement is a kin to the islamic testimony of faith, “laa ilah illaa Allah” – which translates word-for-word to “there is no god [deity, object of worship] except Allah.” this translation does not convey the actual meaning of this phrase accurately and taken as is, is wrong. the actual meaning of the statement “laa ilah illaa Allah” is “laa ma’booda bi haqqin illaa Allah” – there is no rightful object of worship except Allah, or there is nothing worshiped with right except Allah. this statement from Allah is His disapproval of their statement that He is the third of three; of their having taken others as objects of worship besides Allah, whichever way they have done that by—whether it be by setting up equals to Him, such as their taking their monks and priests as legislators besides Allah, their claiming divinity for jesus and mary, their claiming that jesus is Allah or part of Him, or their supplication to dead saints and righteous people.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Yes, but that doesn’t answer 5:116 – why would Allah ask Jesus if he taught the people to take himself and his mother as GODS min dooni Allah?

Aren’t there three gods/purported gods here?

why does a lawyer ask his witness in front of an audience and jury something he already knows of from that witness? the answer is what has been mentioned by both joseph and gurrato in their earlier posts.

the verse mentions two purported gods [objects of worship] that have been taken besides Allah. there is still no mention of the christian doctrine of the trinity or what it consists of anywhere in the Quran.

 

[inJESUS]

“They do blaspheme who say: God is a third of three: for there is no god except One God…”

the word “trinity” does not exist, but the concept does. So if allah wanted to correct the concept of “trinity” , he should have adressed the true one of billions of chrstians and not a heretic one for a limited number in the past.Furthermore, lets says the quran meant this: They do blaspheme who say God is a third of three gods : we do NOT believe this.

They do blaspheme who says God is a third of Gods ( thalathat Allah) : We do NOT believe this.

the very mention of : God is a third of IS WRONG

Mohammad knew nothing about the concept; the very formula is wrong. in whatever way we translate it, it is WRONG. ( whether u want to use Ilah or Allah)

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is THE THIRD OF THREE; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And THEY BOTH USED TO EAT (earthly) FOOD. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! Surah 5:72-75 Pickthall

The passage speaks of Jesus and Mary as having to eat food, obviously to debunk what the author of the Quran thought were Christian beliefs. In other words, the author is assuming that Christians taught that there are three deities, two of whom were Jesus and Mary. The same chapter supports this interpretation since a little later we read:

And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take ME AND MY MOTHER for TWO gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

Obviously, this is not what true, historic Christianity teaches. All muslims have to do is present passages from the Quran where the correct Christian understanding of the Trinity is undermined, i.e. that God is not the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit simultaneously. We are not asking him to produce a single passage where this is stated, but he can try to cull several passages and combine them together to show that the Quran does attack the historic doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

If allah wanted to correct the concept of trinity as father, Son and Holy Spirit, he should have adressed this specific concept and not the heretics’ concept…since allah wanted to correct, it should have been the true concept not the heretic one

 

[r.gonzales]

firstly:

“They do blaspheme who say: God is a third of three: for there is no god except One God…” . . .
. . . in whatever way we translate it, it is WRONG. ( whether u want to use Ilah or Allah)

there is a big difference in the meanings of ilah and Allah; just as there is a difference between the words god and God. so it does matter which way it is translated. the translation of verse 5:73 you provide is inaccurate and alters the import of the verse.

next:

inJESUS:

the word “trinity” does not exist, but the concept does. So if allah wanted to correct the concept of “trinity” , he should have adressed the true one of billions of chrstians and not a heretic one for a limited number in the past.Furthermore, lets says the quran meant this: They do blaspheme who say God is a third of three gods : we do NOT believe this.

this is the same strawman as your buddy doj set up. firstly, no where in the Quran is it stated what you as catholics or what any other christian sect for that matter, “believe”.

secondly, christianity is not one huge homogenous entity. it is a world religion with a vast and complex reality; one of many schisms, sects, concepts and ideologies, peoples and cultures. the verse addresses those from this heterogenous world religion who say that Allah is the third of three.

thirdly, as i mentioned in my posts, the Quran stops at saying Allah is the third of three. it does not say that He is the third of three Gods, or gods, or beings, or entities, or objects, or anything else. three, full stop. as the quote i presented from muhammad mohar ali states, “indeed it was none of the Qur’an’s business to identify the entities or ‘persons’ that constituted the trinity. it simply denounces the concept as antithetical to and subversive of true monotheism.” the concept of the trinity is alluded to in the Quran, but it is never discussed or examined. it is simply rejected and denounced. regardless of how you or any other christian from any other christian sect try to describe and explain the trinity concept, the plain fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, there are still three.

inJESUS:

They do blaspheme who says God is a third of Gods ( thalathat Allah) : We do NOT believe this.

the very mention of : God is a third of IS WRONG

do you understand the difference between the two words god and God? the verse does not contain “thalaathat Allah”, it says “thaalithu thalaathatin”. do you understand the fact that the Quranic verse stops at the word three and does not elaborate on three what?

inJESUS:

Surah 5:72-75 Pickthall

you should really try to find better translations that this.

inJESUS:

The passage speaks of Jesus and Mary as having to eat food, obviously to debunk what the author of the Quran thought were Christian beliefs. In other words, the author is assuming that Christians taught that there are three deities, two of whom were Jesus and Mary.

no, this is mentioned to refute the fact that these two individuals, jesus and his mother mary, were seen to be divine. it is stated to highlight the fact that they were only human beings and did not have any any special powers or abilities. jesus is viewed as the son of God, whereas mary is viewed as the mother of God and as one who can interceded on others’ behalf. highlighting the fact that they are human dispells these false notions.

read my above post on the meaning of ilah and how it should be understood, especially in these verses; also read what i posted regarding the islamic understanding of “worship”.

inJESUS:

Obviously, this is not what true, historic Christianity teaches.

whether or not catholicism is true christianity is a theological debate which the Quran and islam care nothing of. it is a fact that there are sects from christianity (heretic or not) that have taken mary as a clear object of worship and devotion; they believe her to be divine and literally God’s mother, they have deified her and taken her as an ilah [an object of worship]. that jesus has been deified is common among pretty much all christian sects, with exception of a small few.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r.gonzales:

firstly, differentiation and distinction needs to be made here regarding the words “god”, “God”, and “Allah”. the word God as i mentioned in my above post refers to “the being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe”; it is not His name. “god” refers to something that is worshipped, idolized, or followed. according to islamic doctrine and beliefs Allah is God’s proper name. the marjoity christian concept of “God” is that there One God, yet this God is comprised of three “persons”: father, son and holy spirit.

Will some Catholic please explain the Trinity to r.gonzales?

r.gonzales:

Rodrigo:

Not true. It follows in 5:73.
A. Surely Allah is the third of Three….

B. And there is not any god except a SINGLE GOD and who says otherwise is going to be painfully punished (my paraphrase).

B. follows from A. Ergo Allah is one of three gods.

what you have here is a logical inference.

So you prefer to not use logic?

r.gonzales:

what i stated still holds true; the Quran does not say except that “those who said that ‘surely, Allah is the third of three,’ have disbelieved.” it does not say “three [whatever]”. it simply says “three” full stop, and has been left open for a reason.

One of three what? Apples?

r.gonzales:

as for what Allah states after mentioning this, that there is not any god except a single god, then to understand this statement properly, first see my comment concerning the word ilah in my first post to this thread, as well as what i mentioned at the beginning of this post. this statement is an allusion to the christians’ taking objects of worship besides Allah.

This is irrelevant.

The Trinity is comprised God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Isn’t Allah equivalent to God the Father?

The ilah bit actually proves Muhammad didn’t know what he was talking about. Instead of understanding the concept of the Trinity being ONE GOD, he thought the Trinity comprised THREE gods – and Allah and two ilahs.

r.gonzales:

something else to note of is that this statement is a kin to the islamic testimony of faith, “laa ilah illaa Allah” – which translates word-for-word to “there is no god [deity, object of worship] except Allah.” this translation does not convey the actual meaning of this phrase accurately and taken as is, is wrong. the actual meaning of the statement “laa ilah illaa Allah” is “laa ma’booda bi haqqin illaa Allah” – there is no rightful object of worship except Allah, or there is nothing worshiped with right except Allah. this statement from Allah is His disapproval of their statement that He is the third of three; of their having taken others as objects of worship besides Allah, whichever way they have done that by—whether it be by setting up equals to Him, such as their taking their monks and priests as legislators besides Allah, their claiming divinity for jesus and mary, their claiming that jesus is Allah or part of Him, or their supplication to dead saints and righteous people.

Irrelevant as it has nothing to do with 5:73 or 5:116.

r.gonzales:

Rodrigo:

Yes, but that doesn’t answer 5:116 – why would Allah ask Jesus if he taught the people to take himself and his mother as GODS min dooni Allah?

Aren’t there three gods/purported gods here?

why does a lawyer ask his witness in front of an audience and jury something he already knows of from that witness? the answer is what has been mentioned by both joseph and gurrato in their earlier posts.
I also knocked both Joseph and gurrato already. If you have something to say please say it. Referring to some posts I already answered isn’t progressing the discussion – it means we’re entering a loop.

As for your lawyer explanation: thanks for proving me right. Since Jesus never taught people to worship himself and Mary as two gods besides The God (aka Jehovah aka Allah, for the sake of this argument), then the Quran is clearly wrong.

Why ask Jesus something Allah already knew he didn’t do? Because Muhammad, I mean Allah, already knew the answer and wanted people to hear from Jesus’s own testimony that the worship of Jesus, Mary min dooni Allah is not his teaching.

What is the worship of Jesus and Mary as ilah min dooni Allah? A Trinity. It is not the Christian Trinity. It is Muhammad’s version of the Christian Trinity.

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r.gonzales:

the verse mentions two purported gods [objects of worship] that have been taken besides Allah. there is still no mention of the christian doctrine of the trinity or what it consists of anywhere in the Quran.

Hmmm… let’s see:
Jesus telling the people – not Christian doctrine? Must have been Muslim doctrine then? Jeez, thanks.

Two purported gods and Allah, not a trinity? Sure it is not the Christian trinity – that is the whole point. That is Muhammad’s version of the Trinity.

I know what you’re trying to do, r.gonzales. You are engaged in a discussion tactic called the fallacy of exclusion. You will only believe Muhammad meant the Christian trinity if and only if he explicitly stated that ‘The Christian Trinity is such and such and such.’ Then only if he explicitly stated that ‘The Christian Trinity is Jesus, Mary and Allah’ you will concede the point.

I’m afraid you’re very much committing the fallacy of exclusion here. It is actually a form of argument by semantics.

Ciubate,
Rodrigo

 

[inJESUS]

firstly:
there is a big difference in the meanings of ilah

and Allah; just as there is a difference between the words … i know the difference between the 2; you name ANY intention out of this aya, it will be wrong, no matter what word you choose.

next:

this is the same strawman as your buddy doj set up. firstly, no where in the Quran is it stated what you as catholics

or what any other christian sect for that matter, “believe”. why? doesnt allah care to correct the heresies of billions of Christians?

secondly, christianity is not one huge homogenous entity. it is a world religion with a vast and complex reality; one of many schisms, sects…

i read many heretical teachings but till now i did not read that some christians believed that God is the third of 3! in fact, God, the Father , is the first, never the third; if you bring a proof, then we’ll discuss it ;
furthermore, allah seems interested in “some” heretics but NOT is the billions of christians? why should allah correct a small portion and leave out the biggest one? what is the wisdom here?

thirdly, as i mentioned in my posts, the Quran stops at saying Allah is the third of three. it does not say that He is the third of three Gods, or gods, or beings, or entities, or objects, or anything else. three, full stop.

yes full stop; but it does not need too much intelligence to figure out what comes after the number 3- yet, whatever word you might feel like putting, it will be wrong.

as the quote i presented from muhammad mohar ali states, "indeed it was none of the Qur’an’s business to identify the entities or ‘persons’ that constituted the trinity.

isnt allah interested to show the billions of christians that there doctrine is false? allah alluded to the trinity, then why didnt he explicitly say it? why did he choose to focus on heretics instead of mainstream?

it simply denounces the concept as antithetical to and subversive of true monotheism." the concept of the trinity is alluded

to in the Quran, but it is never discussed or examined. it is simply rejected and denounced. regardless of how you or any other christian from any other christian sect try to describe and explain the trinity concept, the plain fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, there are still three. here you make the same mistake like mohammas; Just hearing the number 3, he panicked; in our creed of faith we say : we believe in 1 God; the trinity concept is WITHIN the ONE, not outside it as mohammad thought; so whatever mohammad thought, we are MONOTHEISTIC; clearly mohammad didnt get this and condemned number 3 without understanding it so he attacked the heretics that we dont accept too but never adressed our Monotheism.

do you understand the difference between the two words god and God? the verse does not contain “thalaathat Allah”, it says “thaalithu thalaathatin”.

of course i know it; it was just an example to prove that whatever words you put, its still wrong coz the formula is initially wrong; allah should have known better and should have given a “clearer” reality .

do you understand the fact that the Quranic verse stops at the word three and does not elaborate on three what?

yes coz mohammad gave us a hint already.

you should really try to find better translations that this.

why dont you give it?

no, this is mentioned to refute the fact that these two individuals, jesus and his mother mary, were seen to be divine. it is stated to highlight the fact that they were only human beings

and did not have any any special powers or abilities. jesus is viewed as the son of God, whereas mary is viewed as the mother of God and as one who can interceded on others’ behalf. highlighting the fact that they are human dispells these false notions. but this refutation will occur as well in judgment day; mohammad seemed stressing on this notion.

read my above post on the meaning of ilah

and how it should be understood, especially in these verses; also read what i posted regarding the islamic understanding of “worship”. i know what it means, i know arabic…put any word you want, it will be WRONG.

it is a fact

that there are sects from christianity (heretic or not) that have taken mary as a clear object of worship and devotion; they believe her to be divine and literally God’s mother, they have deified her and taken her as an ilah [an object of worship]. that jesus has been deified is common among pretty much all christian sects, with exception of a small few. indeed it is a fact; they were the heretics at Hijaz and Mecca who interpreted the Holy Spirit as female and called it : Jesus’ mother.Mohammas quoted these heretics , thus we have this aya

 

[inJESUS]

PS: these heretics interpreted it as female coz the word “spirit” in hebrew is feminine…

 

[discipleofJesus]

Some Errors Common to Antitrinitarian Heresies

"**1. They accuse the doctrine of the Trinity of teaching three Gods.

1. They assume that one being must be one and only person, even in God.

2. They understand the Trinity to mean that the three persons are three “parts” of God.**"

Excerpted from “20 Errors Common to Antitrinitarian Heresies”
by Robert M. Bowman, Jr.

 

[discipleofJesus]

“The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion – the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God’s nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.”

Excerpted from “CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity” newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

 

[discipleofJesus]

The Athanasian Creed

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Excerpted from “CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Athanasian Creed”
newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

 

[discipleofJesus]

On the Triune Nature of God
Fi tathlith Allah al-wahid.
(778 A.D., Author unknown)
answering-islam.org/Debates/triune.htm
(bold and underline emphasis mine)

The earliest written Christian apologetic, which was in Arabic and addressed to Muslims, was produced by an unknown Christian author in 788 A.D.** The author of this short text was well aware of Muslim arguments against the Trinity, as well as the Qur’an’s vocabulary, which he used to make his points.**

We do not say three Gods…but we say that God and His Word and His Spirit are one God and one Creator…We do no say that God begat His Word as any man begets - God forbid! Rather we say that the Father begat His Word as the sun begets rays, as the mind begets speech and as the fire begets heat.
This, then, is our faith and our testimony in God and His Word and His Spirit: He is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, one God and one Lord. As for Christ, in him He saved and delivered mankind, and we shall expound that, God willing, how God sent His Word and His Light as a mercy and guidance to men, and favoured them by Him.

 

[discipleofJesus]

The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed

'THE CREED

*"I believe in One God, Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in One Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages.
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father, through whom all things were made.

For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and He suffered and was buried.

On the third day He rose according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I expect the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the age to come.

Amen."*’

Excerpted from ‘Teachings of the Orthodox Church’ by Rev. Thomas Fitzgerald goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7062.asp

 

[discipleofJesus]

"On the Triune Nature of God
Fi tathlith Allah al-wahid.
(778 A.D., Author unknown)

The earliest written Christian apologetic, which was in Arabic and addressed to Muslims, was produced by an unknown Christian author in 788 A.D.** The author of this short text was well aware of Muslim arguments against the Trinity, as well as the Qur’an’s vocabulary, which he used to make his points.**

*We do not say three Gods…but we say that God and His Word and His Spirit are one God and one Creator…We do no say that God begat His Word as any man begets - God forbid! Rather we say that the Father begat His Word as the sun begets rays, as the mind begets speech and as the fire begets heat.

This, then, is our faith and our testimony in God and His Word and His Spirit: He is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, one God and one Lord. As for Christ, in him He saved and delivered mankind, and we shall expound that, God willing, how God sent His Word and His Light as a mercy and guidance to men, and favoured them by Him.*

---

Source: Hoyland, Robert G., Seeing Islam as Others Saw It, (Princeton, New Jersey : Darwin Press), 1997, pp 502-503.​

"

answering-islam.org/Debates/triune.htm
(bold and underline emphasis mine)

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Will some Catholic please explain the Trinity to r.gonzales?

why don’t you do them a favour and explain it yourself for me?
Rodrigo Bivar:

This is irrelevant . . . Irrelevant as it has nothing to do with 5:73 or 5:116.

on the contrary, it’s very relevant considering that, “the Quran,” as muhammad mohar ali so aptly put it (sirat al-nabi and the orientalists, pg. 293), “treats to the two subjects, the trinity and worship of human beings as gods or lords, as two distinct themes.” this is clearly evident in Allah’s statement in 9:31, “they took their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah, as well as [taking] the anointed one, son of maryam [as a lord]; while they were not ordered except to worship Allah as a single god. there is no god [worthy of worship] except He, glorified is He from what they associate with Him.”
Rodrigo Bivar:

Instead of understanding the concept of the Trinity being ONE GOD, he thought the Trinity comprised THREE gods – and Allah and two ilahs.

you would be right if 5:116 was referring to the trinity, but it’s not. as i said regarding the portion of 5:73 that states, “and there is not any god except a single god”:
this statement from Allah is His disapproval of their statement that He is the third of three; of their having taken others as objects of worship besides Allah, whichever way they have done that by—whether it be by setting up equals to Him, such as their taking their monks and priests as legislators besides Allah, their claiming divinity for jesus and mary, their claiming that jesus is Allah or part of Him, or their supplication to dead saints and righteous people.
taking their rabbis and monks as lords (and legislators) as is stated in 9:31, by obeying them when they made the forbidden lawful and the lawful forbidden (as is explained in an authentic hadeeth reported by ahmad), is a form of worshipping them; thus making them also alihah (pl. of ilah – gods, deities, objects of worship) besides Allah.

muhammad ali states in a footnote to verse 5:116 in his translation (emphasis mine):
From the description of Mary as being taken for a god by the Christians, some Christian critics of the Qur’an conclude that the doctrine of the Trinity according to the Qur’an consists of three persons – God, Jesus and Mary. But this is an absolutely unwarranted conclusion. Mary is no doubt spoken of as being taken for an object of worshipby the Christians; but the doctrine of the Trinity is not mentioned here, while the divinity of Mary is not mentioned where the Trinity is spoken of. The doctrine and practice of Mariolatry, as it is called by Protestant controversialists, is too well known. In the catechism of the Roman Church the following doctrines are to be found: “That she is truly the mother of God, and the second Eve, by whose means we have received blessing and life; that she is the mother of Pity and very specifically our advocate; that her images are of the utmost utility” (Ency. Br., 11th ed., vol. 17, p. 813). [he then goes on to mention more supporting evidence for the assertion that mary has been taken as an object of worship beside Allah, from the catechim and from other examples.]
Rodrigo Bivar:

Two purported gods and Allah, not a trinity?

for someone who loves to point out other people’s logical fallacies, it’s amusing how you fail to see your own flawed logic here . . .

1. the Quran alludes to the trinity in certain places (“do not say three” & “Allah is the third of three”) and also mentions the christians taking jesus and mary as objects of worship in one verse
2. jesus and mary taken as objects of worship + Allah = three objects of worship, thus it must be referring to the trinity.

so what about the learned religious men that the Quran says christians took as objects of worship as well, does it now become a quadranity? or perhaps Allah is comprised of the learned men, jesus and mary?