Is the Qur'an wrong about the trinity?

[Cyber_Knight]

Crikey Rodie… that is so touchy!!!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The softer side comes out after a couple bottles of Shiraz with my friends.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

This thread is need to be closed. No body interested to continue.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam in JESUS;

Now what? Trying to analyze the trinity to say we worship 3 gods?

I don’t have the ambition to explain the trinity; it exhausted the minds of millions of people who wrestled to explain it without success. The trinity ended up classified as a mystery and it will remain so because it is a transgression against the Almighty God.

“This doctrine teaches that God exists in three persons who share the same essence or being”, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, fully separate from each other but fully equal. If there is equality, then it should apply first and foremost to the Divine Attributes. Those Divine Attributes are either “duplicated”, meaning every person of the trinity fully possesses them, or “shared” between the three, meaning no one –when taken separately- of the person of the trinity has exclusivity over them, but only God (the three persons all together) has them.

Duplication of the Divine Attributes has no purpose, and effectively means three Gods, despite the declared profession of One God.
If the Father is fully God, then He is the Creator, the Sustainer of the Universe, the All-Powerful, The All-Knowing etc. If the Son is fully God, then He is the Creator, the Sustainer of the Universe, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing etc. If the Holy Spirit is fully God then He is the Creator, the Sustainer of the Universe, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing etc; which gives Three Creators, Three Sustainers of the universe, Three All-Knowing, Three All-Powerful persons. This is Three Gods and not One God. The Holy Qur’an covered this “and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah” [Qur’an 4:171]. This was the case of duplication of the Divine Attributes.

Sharing of the Divine Attributes and the Divine essence is equivalent to say that only God (the three persons taken together) is the Creator, the Sustainer of the Universe, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing etc.
This case makes God (any member of the trinity) a third of three; if we take out one person of the trinity (one third) then God is not God, He is not the Creator, not the Sustainer of the universe, not the All-Powerful, not the All-Knowing etc, because one third is missing. The Holy Qur’an covered this: “They surely disbelieve who say: **Lo! Allah is the third of three; ** when there is no Allah save the One Allah”[Qur’an 5:73].

Just a wishful thinking; we worship ONE GOD which Muhammad failed to understand, what goes within this “one” is irrelevant, coz we believe in ONE GOD.

Yes, you profess to worship One God, but if all those who go “within this one" as you said, have the exact same Divine Attributes, then in reality -no matter what the claim is- you have a multitude of Gods. In fact there is no other choice for Christians but to profess to believe in One God and the reason is very simple: the OT.
Yes, the OT clearly states without any confusion that God is one. The OT is part of the Christian scriptures because it is needed, and it is needed because it supposedly speaks about Jesus and his Messiah ship. The trinity creed annoucers had no other choice but to marry the belief of One God of the OT with whatever religious belief the winning party in Nicene wanted to impose on people.

ALL that mohammad addressed where the heresies that we Christians refute…mohammad was raised learning the nasara teachings, not the masihiyyin (Christian) teachings, coz you obviously do not find the word Masihiyyin (christians) in quran but only the word nasara; and hopefully you people know the differences between the mainstream christians, and the heretic nasara.

Massihiyyin is an improper term; the same applies to its English rendering, the Christians.
Massih means anointed, Massihiyin would mean the anointed (in plural). Christ is the rendering of the anointed, Christians would mean the anointed (in plural). I never heard that a follower of Jesus was called an anointed. Would Allah (SWT) use an improper term which has no true existence?

Continued…

 

[Joseph_Alison]

…Continued and end.

Christianity was an evolving system of beliefs until the Nicene Creed where Constantine forced that creed to become the official one. The numerous meetings before the one in Nicene are the proof that a whole range of beliefs were circulating. The Holy Qur’an addressed those numerous beliefs, including what you call the mainstream Christianity.
-To the ones (the Jacobites) who said that Issa (Jesus) the Messiah was God: “They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary [Qur’an 5:17]
-To the Ones who said “This doctrine teaches that God exists in three persons who share the same essence or being, and that God is three persons sharing the Divine Attributes: “They surely disbelieve who say:**Lo! Allah is the third of three; ** when there is no Allah save the One Allah”[Qur’an 5:73]
-To the ones who said God is three Persons having the same Divine Attributes: “…and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah” [Qur’an 4:171]
Basically the Holy Qur’an addressed every belief which deviated from the original message brought the mighty prophet called Jesus (PBUH).

So NO MATTER what mohammas/allah refuted, he DID NOT KNOW WHAT MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN, BUT HE WAS STUCK IN 7TH CENTURY HERETIC ARABIA

No matter how the trinity is enounced, it is still Three Persons with each Person believed to be fully God and possessing the full Divine Attributes and therefore we are in presence of Three Gods and not One God, Allah (SWT) advised, in verse 4:117, to refrain from saying that and it is our duty to convey the message.

PS: I apologize to everyone who felt offended by what I wrote about the trinity. I tend not to approach this subject with the same holiness as our Catholic Brethren do.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Joseph_Alison:

No matter how the trinity is enounced, it is still Three Persons with each Person believed to be fully God and possessing the full Divine Attributes and therefore we are in presence of Three Gods and not One God, Allah (SWT) advised, in verse 4:117, to refrain from saying that and it is our duty to convey the message.

This shows a huge misunderstanding of what the Trinity is. Three persons with One Divine Essence. There is only one God. Just as with the Incarnation, Jesus is fully Man but he is also fully God. We can not fully understand these things with our human mind which is why we in the Eastern Churches call it a Mystery.

PS: I apologize to everyone who felt offended by what I wrote about the trinity. I tend not to approach this subject with the same holiness as our Catholic Brethren do.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Now Joseph, this PS of yours shows that you are not open to discussion on this topic. You have made up your mind. So I do not see why you want to discuss it. Rather it seems that you wish to lecture us on how we are wrong. So with that in mind I do not see how discussing this with you any further will do any good.

 

[JimG]

Joseph_Alison:

Those Divine Attributes are either “duplicated”, meaning every person of the trinity fully possesses them, or “shared” between the three, meaning no one –when taken separately- of the person of the trinity has exclusivity over them, but only God (the three persons all together) has them. Duplication of the Divine Attributes has no purpose, and effectively means three Gods, despite the declared profession of One God.

I explained this before, but let me reiterate it: The divine attributes are not duplicated; neither are they shared. Father, Son, and Spirit all possess totally the attributes of the one nature of God.

Because God is spirit, he has no parts, so the divine nature cannot be duplicated or shared.

We are not saying that God is three natures in one nature.
We are not saying that God is three persons in one person.
Rather, we affirm that God is three persons in one nature.

Three persons, but only one Being.

This would not be possible unless God is infinite, eternal, immaterial, indivisible, spirit. But you never responded as to whether Islam teaches that God is spirit, or whether it teaches that God is matter. So how can we discuss the attributes of God if we cannot discuss this most basic attribute? Spirit or matter?

 

[inJESUS]

I don’t have the ambition to explain the trinity;

interesting.

it exhausted the minds of millions of people who wrestled to explain it without success. The trinity ended up classified as a mystery and it will remain so

because Trinity = God; an easy God is not god.If you do not understand the Trinity, it does not mean it is wrong

because it is a transgression against the Almighty God.

you cannot impose on God who He is according to your human mind; you must accept who he says He is.

“This doctrine teaches that God exists in three persons who share the same essence or being”, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, fully separate from each other but fully equal. If there is equality, then it should apply first and foremost to the Divine Attributes. Those Divine Attributes are either “duplicated”, meaning every person of the trinity fully possesses them, or “shared” between the three, meaning no one –when taken separately- of the person of the trinity has exclusivity over them, but only God (the three persons all together) has them.

??

Duplication of the Divine Attributes has no purpose, and effectively means three Gods, despite the declared profession of One God.

why are we capable to understand it but you are not? it is because you were indoctrinated by false teachings from someone who did not understand it himself.

If the Father is fully God, then He is the Creator, the Sustainer of the Universe, the All-Powerful, The All-Knowing etc. If the Son is fully God, then He is the Creator, the Sustainer of the Universe, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing etc. If the Holy Spirit is fully God then He is the Creator, the Sustainer of the Universe, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing etc; which gives Three Creators, Three Sustainers of the universe, Three All-Knowing, Three All-Powerful persons. This is Three Gods and not One God. The Holy Qur’an covered this “and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah” [Qur’an 4:171]. This was the case of duplication of the Divine Attributes.

this is the attempt to prove, like i said, that we worship 3 gods which fails miserably.

Sharing of the Divine Attributes and the Divine essence is equivalent to say that only God (the three persons taken together) is the Creator, the Sustainer of the Universe, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing etc.
This case makes God (any member of the trinity) a third of three; if we take out one person of the trinity (one third) then God is not God, He is not the Creator, not the Sustainer of the universe, not the All-Powerful, not the All-Knowing etc, because one third is missing. The Holy Qur’an covered this: “They surely disbelieve who say: **Lo! Allah is the third of three; ** when there is no Allah save the One Allah”[Qur’an 5:73].

thank you for proving yourself that the quran/allah/mohammad is wrong.

Massihiyyin is an improper term; the same applies to its English rendering, the Christians.
Massih means anointed, Massihiyin would mean the anointed (in plural). Christ is the rendering of the anointed, Christians would mean the anointed (in plural). I never heard that a follower of Jesus was called an anointed. Would Allah (SWT) use an improper term which has no true existence?

first, masihiyyin is the followers of the masih who were called as such in the first century; second, yes the christians are annointed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[inJESUS]

Cyber Knight:

This thread is need to be closed. No body interested to continue.

i think it must be closed because we showed that mohammad/allah did not know what Christians believe in, only the heretics of 7th century Arabia, which clearly shows that mohammad/allah was stuck in that century.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam All;

I end this thread asking forgiveness from everyone who was offended by what I wrote. I am aware that criticizing people’s beliefs is not the best way to make friends, far from it, but sometimes one is dragged into it unwillingly.
I hope this forum becomes a forum of understanding instead of confrontation as is the case in many instances.

I have no more to add to this thread, I hope the discussions here were of a benefit to those who were following them.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

inJESUS:

i think it must be closed because we showed that mohammad/allah did not know what Christians believe in, only the heretics of 7th century Arabia, which clearly shows that mohammad/allah was stuck in that century.

Good point inJESUS! Thanks for all your effort to make us, Christians. believe that we worship God thru HOLY TRINITY! AMEN!!

 

[prodigal-sun]

Wow, quite the thread! This is how I see it…

Islam states that the Koran is from God, God is all knowing and does not make mistakes, Koran states how we Christians believe in three Gods…

*The Athanasian Creed

Written against the Arians.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.*

clearly we do not believe in three gods in anyway shape or form.

Therfore the Koran is mistaken because God never is!

Peace!

 

[inJESUS]

clearly we do not believe in three gods in anyway shape or form.

Therfore the Koran is mistaken because God never is!

Peace!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

note to self, read this thread.