Is the Real Presence valid in EO services?

[Ghosty]

I have read that they function as Deacons for remote female monasteries. It is explicit that they do the Typica.

Their traditional role included preaching in cloisters, baptizing women, and instructing women and children in the faith.

Ahh, so Latin active nuns.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Nicholas82]

Ahh, so Latin active nuns.

Peace and God bless!

Except that they are ordained…

 

[CentralFLJames]

I have read that they function as Deacons for remote female monasteries. It is explicit that they do the Typica.

Their traditional role included preaching in cloisters, baptizing women, and instructing women and children in the faith.

Isn’t the Typica just an Orthodox worship service for laymen who are without clergy that involves chanting and reciting prepared prayers and sermons?

As best I can tell this is it:
Typica

• Chanting Psalms 102 and 145
• Chanting The Beatitudes
• Reciting 3 Kontakions (Tone of the day, Kontakion of the Temple, Kontakion of the saint of the day),
• Chanting the Trisagion
• Reading The Epistle and Gospel reading of the day
• Chanting The Cherubim hymn
• Reciting The symbol of Faith (Creed)
• Commemoration of the living and departed
• Singing The Lord’s Prayer
• Singing Psalm 33
• Reciting a sermon from a Holy Father, or a modern saint

I don’t even see a Deacon’s blessing here. So as liturgically compelling as it is (I like it!) it all sounds like a ceremony that any lay or religious person could do without any special permission on their own here in the Catholic Church - even in a small group worship in the privacy of home or in the chapel etc.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Except that they are ordained…

Is the rite a real deacon(ess) level ordination by laying on of hands by an apostolic bishop or just a special blessing from same? In other words is there any sort of ecclesial authority granted through a lessor apostolic rite?

James

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Isn’t the Typica just an Orthodox worship service for laymen who are without clergy that involves chanting and reciting prepared prayers and sermons?

As best I can tell this is it:
Typica

• Chanting Psalms 102 and 145
• Chanting The Beatitudes
• Reciting 3 Kontakions (Tone of the day, Kontakion of the Temple, Kontakion of the saint of the day),
• Chanting the Trisagion
• Reading The Epistle and Gospel reading of the day
• Chanting The Cherubim hymn
• Reciting The symbol of Faith (Creed)
• Commemoration of the living and departed
• Singing The Lord’s Prayer
• Singing Psalm 33
• Reciting a sermon from a Holy Father, or a modern saint

I don’t even see a Deacon’s blessing here. So as liturgically compelling as it is (I like it!) it all sounds like a ceremony that any lay or religious person could do without any special permission on their own here in the Catholic Church - even in a small group worship in the privacy of home or in the chapel etc.

James

There are deacon prayer’s (they don’t bless), as they usually lead it.

 

[Ghosty]

Except that they are ordained…

Doesn’t really matter, since “ordained” is a very specific term in modern Latin usage, and a very broad one in older Latin and current Byzantine usage.

At one time even Readers were called “ordained” in the Latin Church, but that term is now reserved for the Apostolic Orders of Deacon/Priest/Bishop. Since deaconesses are not among these three Orders, they aren’t “ordained” in a modern Latin sense of the term, though the older usage of the term would apply.

When modern Catholics reject the “ordination of women”, they’re referring to the modern sense of the term, not the older sense that includes Eastern deaconesses (though many think that deaconesses are “ordained” in the modern sense, which is incorrect; deaconesses are NOT female Deacons).

Peace and God bless!

 

[Aramis]

Isn’t the Typica just an Orthodox worship service for laymen who are without clergy that involves chanting and reciting prepared prayers and sermons?

As best I can tell this is it:
Typica

• Chanting Psalms 102 and 145
• Chanting The Beatitudes
• Reciting 3 Kontakions (Tone of the day, Kontakion of the Temple, Kontakion of the saint of the day),
• Chanting the Trisagion
• Reading The Epistle and Gospel reading of the day
• Chanting The Cherubim hymn
• Reciting The symbol of Faith (Creed)
• Commemoration of the living and departed
• Singing The Lord’s Prayer
• Singing Psalm 33
• Reciting a sermon from a Holy Father, or a modern saint

I don’t even see a Deacon’s blessing here. So as liturgically compelling as it is (I like it!) it all sounds like a ceremony that any lay or religious person could do without any special permission on their own here in the Catholic Church - even in a small group worship in the privacy of home or in the chapel etc.

James

There are, in the books, differences from a deacon’s leading the typica and a layman’s leading the typica.

Including the deacon giving communion using the presanctified gifts and giving a blessing at the end.

see orthodoxwiki.org/Typica for a better explanation.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Is the rite a real deacon(ess) level ordination by laying on of hands by an apostolic bishop or just a special blessing from same? In other words is there any sort of ecclesial authority granted through a lessor apostolic rite?

**There are three levels in the Sacrament of Holy Orders: Deacon, Presbyter (or Priest), and Bishop.

In the Byzantine tradition the word CHEIROTONIA is used for all three. “Cheirothesia” is used for the minor orders of Reader and Subdeacon and lesser blessings and appointments.

If you want to read the office for ordaining (by CHEIROTONIA) a deaconess, go here:

anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm

Read the service for yourself and make up your own mind. **

 

[bpbasilphx]

**Typica

* Chanting Psalms 102 and 145
* Chanting The Beatitudes
* Reciting 3 Kontakions (Tone of the day, Kontakion of the Temple, Kontakion of the saint of the day),
* Chanting the Trisagion
* Reading The Epistle and Gospel reading of the day
* Chanting The Cherubim hymn
* Reciting The symbol of Faith (Creed)
* Commemoration of the living and departed
* Singing The Lord's Prayer
* Singing Psalm 33
* Reciting a sermon from a Holy Father, or a modern saint**

**The Cherubic Hymn, being related to the Liturgy of the Eucharist is NOT part of Typica.

You can find this office as generally done when a Priest is not available for Divine LIturgy here, which differs only slightly from the text given in the Horologion:

pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/typica.htm

There are little variations in mission practice.

If a Priest if present, you can probably guess where communion could be distributed.**

 

[bpbasilphx]

When modern Catholics reject the “ordination of women”, they’re referring to the modern sense of the term, not the older sense that includes Eastern deaconesses (though many think that deaconesses are “ordained” in the modern sense, which is incorrect; deaconesses are NOT female Deacons).

**Ghosty, the word CHEIROTONIA is used for the major orders, including Deaconess.

CHEIROTHESIA is used for minor orders of Reader and Subdeacon.

I have already given the link to the service, but I will point out that the order for ordaining both a Male and Female Deacon takes places in the same point of the Liturgy, has many of the same prayers, inculding the initial one read only during major orders “The Divine Grace…” and the Deaconess is given the stole.**

 

[mercygate]

When modern Catholics reject the “ordination of women”, they’re referring to the modern sense of the term, not the older sense that includes Eastern deaconesses (though many think that deaconesses are “ordained” in the modern sense, which is incorrect; deaconesses are NOT female Deacons).

Ghosty, the word CHEIROTONIA is used for the major orders, including Deaconess.

CHEIROTHESIA is used for minor orders of Reader and Subdeacon.

I have already given the link to the service, but I will point out that the order for ordaining both a Male and Female Deacon takes places in the same point of the Liturgy, has many of the same prayers, inculding the initial one read only during major orders “The Divine Grace…” and the Deaconess is given the stole.

Yesterday, we celebrated the feast of St. Bruno, founder of the Carthusian Order. Many liturgical customs and practices of the 11th Century church have been retained in the Order, even after the aggiornamento of Vatican 2. Among the particular customs retained by the Carthusian nuns is the practice of investing with the deacon’s stole and the privilege of reading the Gospel at liturgies. Sounds very like what is described here.

 

[Ghosty]

When modern Catholics reject the “ordination of women”, they’re referring to the modern sense of the term, not the older sense that includes Eastern deaconesses (though many think that deaconesses are “ordained” in the modern sense, which is incorrect; deaconesses are NOT female Deacons).

**Ghosty, the word CHEIROTONIA is used for the major orders, including Deaconess.

CHEIROTHESIA is used for minor orders of Reader and Subdeacon.

I have already given the link to the service, but I will point out that the order for ordaining both a Male and Female Deacon takes places in the same point of the Liturgy, has many of the same prayers, inculding the initial one read only during major orders “The Divine Grace…” and the Deaconess is given the stole.**

Yes, but it’s still not the ordination of a female Deacon, which is my point. In the Latin usage, the term “ordain” applies to Deacons specifically; a Deaconess is a different thing than a female Deacon in such an understanding.

Personally I don’t care either way. I don’t have a horse in this particular race.

Peace and God bless!

 

[bpbasilphx]

Yes, but it’s still not the ordination of a female Deacon, which is my point.

**Yes, it is.

Did you read the service and its title?**

 

[Ghosty]

Yes, but it’s still not the ordination of a female Deacon, which is my point.

**Yes, it is.

Did you read the service and its title?**

Yes, I read it, and it is precisely the difference stated in the notes that marks the distinction that is important for the Western classification of Deacon. In the West, Deacons can administer certain Sacraments, or Mysteries; that is not part of the ordination of a Deaconess, according to the service you posted. Everything that a Deaconess can do, a layman can do in the Latin Church, hence there is nothing that specifically marks them as different from an active Latin nun, as opposed to a contemplative nun which would be closer to a Byzantine style nun.

Since the Deaconesses don’t receive anything unique, in the view of Latin Sacramental theology, there’s really no conflict I can see with a potential reunion, or restoration of the Order of Deaconess to the Eastern Catholic Churches; the Latin Church already has far more women in the “role of Deaconess” than the East.

Peace and God bless!

 

[patricksmith]

can you plz write about this???

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[po18guy]

For a Sacrament to be properly received, it must be both valid and licit. The Eucharist is valid in EO masses. However, it is also illicit, not sanctioned by Peter’s successor, since the EO is in schism with Rome. Thus receiving such a Sacrament would amount to confessory material for a Roman Catholic, I imagine. Father Serpa could render the final verdict on this.

 

[Aramis]

For a Sacrament to be properly received, it must be both valid and licit. The Eucharist is valid in EO masses. However, it is also illicit, not sanctioned by Peter’s successor, since the EO is in schism with Rome. Thus receiving such a Sacrament would amount to confessory material for a Roman Catholic, I imagine. Father Serpa could render the final verdict on this.

Except that, under Roman Canon Law, Latin Rite Catholics are permitted (Explicitly) to receive the sacraments in an Orthodox parish if for some reason they can’t receive in a Catholic parish.

Canon 847 specifically allows it.

 

[Jakub]

I’ve heard more additions & subtractions during the consecration then I can count with my fingers in and around my neck of the woods which are illicit…you will not find that in a Eastern Liturgy be it Orthodox or Catholic…

Does the Pope sanction all those illicit acts ?

james

 

[bpbasilphx]

In the West, Deacons can administer certain Sacraments, or Mysteries; that is not part of the ordination of a Deaconess, according to the service you posted.

**But in the East, Deacons cannot.

CHEIROTONIA is the distinguishing word here.

And the Deaconess, like the Deacon, returns the Chalice to the Altar after Communion–something a layman cannot do.**

 

[po18guy]

Except that, under Roman Canon Law, Latin Rite Catholics are permitted (Explicitly) to receive the sacraments in an Orthodox parish if for some reason they can’t receive in a Catholic parish.

Canon 847 specifically allows it.

Thank you for pointing that notable exception out.