Is the richness ie gold cups and paintings of the Catholic church in Rome a problem?.....

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Rete said:
I cannot understand this sentiment at all.

From my perspective, it would be incredibly offensive if we fail to offer to God the best materials and craftsmanship our communities can afford. That’s not because of the inherent worldly value of the materials, but a reflection of our putting the Lord first in our lives.

Why, after all, did several generations in Europe put so much of their paltry wealth and short lives into building magnificent cathedrals? If using a gold chalice is somehow inappropriate, then certainly massively expensive and labor-intensive cathedrals would be out of the question.

I have said it before and will say every time somebody repeats something like this sentiment to me: what kind of nation are we who spend more time and money in building more elaborate and expensive places of entertainment, such as IMAX movie theaters, than in our churches. What does that say about us as a people?
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So true, the city I came from spent multi millions on a “cathedral” for a high school football team, while the churches are built cheaply except…for the First Baptist church.
 
So the Church sells all its beautiful art. Then what?

Some rich people will have it and the poor who already have very little now will have no beauty as well.

Shameful.
 
I grew up in working class neighborhood. Yet, my church had a marble altar, interior marble apse, marble communion rails, a handcrafted gold tabernacle, numerous stained glass windows, several alcoves for statues and beautiful architecture. The nearest museum… 25 miles away. Yeah, let’s sell all that (sarcasm)
 
Mother Teresa, when asked about the gold chalice that was used for Mass in her community said something along the lines of even the poorest of the poor deserving to give the best to God.
 
Excellent comments and views with support stated all around. These all will help me try to reason with my BIL; if he let’s me interject while he continues to remain stubborn on his convictions. 🤷

I would hope non-Apostolic Christian CAF members would weigh in here with their thoughts. So far only Monergestic gave his point of view.

I will be patient:D

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
My bro in law a former Catholic says that the Church is too rich, with all those gold cups and paintings and expensive artifacts and what not. He says he left because the Church (which he admits was the “First Church”) forgot its humble beginnings.

Is this a thought some non-Catholics have as well?

However, let me ask did Jesus actually forbid riches in all circumstances?

MJ
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I would guess that on a per capita basis, the Catholic Church spends less than most protestant churches on church buildings, administrative overhead etc.

Granted there might be some art in the Vatican, both decorative and liturgical, but so what? What percentage of the church’s income each year is dedicated to promoting its’ wealth, and how much is plowed back into educatiion, hospitals, hospices, charities etc.?

Has he ever bothered to investigate those things?

You might be interested in showing him this link, which is American -

on-this-rock.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/does-church-spend-47-on-charities.html
 
Bob_Crowley said:
I would guess that on a per capita basis, the Catholic Church spends less than most protestant churches on church buildings, administrative overhead etc.

Granted there might be some art in the Vatican, both decorative and liturgical, but so what? What percentage of the church’s income each year is dedicated to promoting its’ wealth, and how much is plowed back into educatiion, hospitals, hospices, charities etc.?

Has he ever bothered to investigate those things?

You might be interested in showing him this link, which is American -

on-this-rock.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/does-church-spend-47-on-charities.html
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Sure. I’ll check it out. Although he lives in Australia:thumbsup:

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Right. I agree. Infact during the Eucharistic Doxology when the Chalice (of Gold) and the Lord’s Body (Eucharistic Host) is being held up, the Priest will say:

Through him, and with him, and in him, O God, almighty Father, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, forever and ever. Amen.

The focus and honour and the “richness” is for God’s Greater Glory.

MJ
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A beautiful church is to the eye who beautiful music is to the ear. It raises our spirits.Invokes the Holy Spirit. Puritanism deprecates beauty, prefers prose to poetry.
 
You will find many times within Catholicism the most beautiful churches in poorer neighborhoods, and in affluent parishes, very simple and almost stark parishes. Human hands build these local parish churches, and so by participation, charitable contributions that are also partially funded by the diocese, the low income people also have a profound emotional and spiritual bond and attachment to those church buildings they helped built.

The poor are very aware of the profound greatness of God, and have the most generous hearts in wishing Him to be most honored and adored here on earth among us.

Also, by the way, there is a most stupendous church being built in Barcelona, Spain --Sagrada Familia…the architect taking a long time to build as the Author had alot of time and patience…I will try to find the link, but they are saying it most be the most profound one built now in the world. Will try to find the link…
 
MartinJordan said:
My bro in law a former Catholic says that the Church is too rich, with all those gold cups and paintings and expensive artifacts and what not. He says he left because the Church (which he admits was the “First Church”) forgot its humble beginnings.

Is this a thought some non-Catholics have as well?

However, let me ask did Jesus actually forbid riches in all circumstances?

MJ
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I think your friend doesn’t realise that the items he is deeming as ‘wealth’ are priceless. They couldn’t sell them if they wanted to.

When they try to determine how much money is in the Catholic Church, they cannot include those items. They are not really ‘riches’ or ‘wealth’ that the church has, they are historic items that the Church holds onto. In the eyes of the Accountants, that stuff is worthless, it isn’t recorded as any value because it would be impossible to determine a value.

Would your friend have the Church melt down golden crucifixes and things that have been in the Church for centuries with great historic value? and if so he would remove the historical value just by doing such a thing and if he doesn’t do it how would he put a price on something that is priceless?

It’s similar to how the Louvre Museum has the Monalisa. The Monalisa is not part of that Museums wealth, because they cannot sell the Monalisa because it’s priceless.

It’s like me saying is the wealth of the Monalisa a problem for the Louvre? The answer would be that the Monalisa isn’t a part of the Louvre’s wealth because they cannot sell the Monalisa.

If you had a Gold Chalice that had been pased down through generation and generation until it became priceless with great historic value to you and your family. Would you put a price on it in order to sell it?

Money comes and goes. These items are historically invaluable to the Church.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
josh987654321 said:
I think your friend doesn’t realise that the items he is deeming as ‘wealth’ are priceless. They couldn’t sell them if they wanted to.

When they try to determine how much money is in the Catholic Church, they cannot include those items. They are not really ‘riches’ or ‘wealth’ that the church has, they are historic items that the Church holds onto. In the eyes of the Accountants, that stuff is worthless, it isn’t recorded as any value because it would be impossible to determine a value.

Would your friend have the Church melt down golden crucifixes and things that have been in the Church for centuries with great historic value? and if so he would remove the historical value just by doing such a thing and if he doesn’t do it how would he put a price on something that is priceless?

It’s similar to how the Louvre Museum has the Monalisa. The Monalisa is not part of that Museums wealth, because they cannot sell the Monalisa because it’s priceless.

It’s like me saying is the wealth of the Monalisa a problem for the Louvre? The answer would be that the Monalisa isn’t a part of the Louvre’s wealth because they cannot sell the Monalisa.

If you had a Gold Chalice that had been pased down through generation and generation until it became priceless with great historic value to you and your family. Would you put a price on it in order to sell it?

Money comes and goes. These items are historically invaluable to the Church.

Thank you for reading
Josh
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I enjoyed reading your posts. Agreed wholeheartedly. 🙂

The Church depends also not only honoring God but also is a Church made of humans for humans, Humans who use Reason to defend its beliefs.I,suppose some just don’t want to “see” it and look at things superficially…or worse block out what they don’t want to hear. 🤷

MJ
 
KathleenGee said:
You will find many times within Catholicism the most beautiful churches in poorer neighborhoods, and in affluent parishes, very simple and almost stark parishes.
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The first time I went to a church upper class neighborhood, I noticed this difference. I actually had to go outside and read the sign to make sure I was at the right church. Yet, in the parking lot were either expensive or brand new cars.
 
MartinJordan said:
Sure. I’ll check it out. Although he lives in Australia:thumbsup:

MJ
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Whoops, one of my crowd eh? Mmm, the cynic metre you’re dealing with just went up a few notches. I remember an American Christian coming out here a few years ago, and being reported in a local Christian magazine as saying “You (Australians) seem to have these wonderful built in BS meters …” We’re a bit cynical, even at Christian level, and we regard our leaders with a jaundiced eye. Probably has a bit to do with our convict origins way back, and the strong Irish influence in years gone by when they tended to be down trodden by the (British) authorities.

If you want to get through to an Australian, focus on the charitable activities the church carries out, including education and health. You might also include Centacare, the Catholic outfit in Australia which has several arms - employment agency, aged care, disability services, youth services etc.

Australians tend to be more impressed with egalitarian service to others, rather than status. The Salvos (Salvation Army) have a high public profile, since service to others is their reason for being, rather than church building.
 
The Lords Prayer. ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

Lets look at those words, just for the sake of this debate. I have used these same issues to be resentful and angry towards the church as well. Of course, I was guilty of pride through my human understanding. When we take a look at it, lets look at what John is witnessing when he is describing the HEAVENLY MASS.

For many, this is not what John is witnessing in Revelation.

Lets look at the evidence and consider that is precisely what he is seeing. Lets also see which church is imitating ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven’s identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church’s identification on earth.

Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.

Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.

Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as “alter Christuses” (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests (“presbyteroi”) in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus’ eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 4:8 - heaven’s liturgical chant “Holy, Holy, Holy” is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God’s word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven’s description of Jesus as the “Lamb” is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven’s emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church’s tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.

Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross (“tau”) in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God’s family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.

Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.

Rev. 11:12 - the phrase “come up here” is similar to the priest’s charge to “lift up your hearts” at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven’s emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 12:7 - heaven’s emphasis on the Archangel Michael’s intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.

Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ’s sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the “Gloria” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven’s marriage supper is the same as the Lamb’s supper in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the “Alleluia” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

If we read there are gold bowls on incense, and a gold cup.

So, the question is which church is imitating on EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN? Which Church beholds the woman as our mother as it is affirmed in Revelation 12:17 and reaffirmed by Christs words when he said BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER.

Anyway, there are fulfillments and we as believers should always offer our best. Take a lesson from the reason why God did not accept the gift of Cain. It suggests that Cain did not offer God his best, but rather kept the best for himself. It suggests that cause the bible states that Abel had offered up the first born (calf) to God. Well, it is tradition that the first born is the most valuble. When it failed to mention that Cain offered God the BEST of his crop, that is an inference that Cain kept the best for himself.
 
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