Is the Roman Catholic Church and the body of Christ one and the same?

[chimo]

What I meant is for all protestants to come back to the Catholic Church! For all of them to repent and proclaim the entirety of the Holy Faith! I do hope this happens as I was looking at the numbers that there are more protestants in the world than Orthodox Christians… interesting fact…

Well this is true (Protestants numbering more than the Orthodox) Protestants do not have the largest communion after the Catholic Church. This belongs to the Eastern Orthodox Church which is the largest communion after the Catholic Church. There is very good reason why the Orthodox have not grown in the last few hundred years and it has to do with the persecution they have encountered. No Church has ever been persecuted like the Orthodox Church. God must see in them the image of His Suffering Son. The Orthodox has collectively followed through the Passion with incredible witness which I believe has helped the Lord to respond with even greater graces for this world. Without this witness of the Suffering Church I am sure the world would have been worse off. It is because of the Orthodox Church’s sufferings that had prevented her to grow as did the other Churches.

 

[Seekerjn316]

Yes, you make valid claims. Perhaps the word repent was not the correct word for me to use. Of course all people should repent of all sins and come to God, but that is not the topic at hand. Right. What I meant is that I do hope that all people who claim to be protestant to find their way back to the Catholic Church.

Though they officially never left, it was because of their ancestors that they were left without shepherds to guide them against the heresies of the world as well as lacking parts of the Faith.

I am not my ancestors…I do not understand how I can “find my way back” to a organization I have neve belonged tor and never will be a part of…I am Home,I have no other Home to go to… the church of Rome was never Home, so im at a loss on how I would “return” to a place I’ve never been to.

 

[Vico]

What do you mean by “atheist”? If you mean one who has made a choice not to believe in God then he is not ignorant.

An Atheist is a person without a belief in a god or gods. Many people are not taught the Gospel. Some religions such as Buddhism are included.

See this from Pope Paul VI, Nostra Aetate:2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Even an atheist that listens to and obeys conscience, which is “the aboriginal Vicar of Christ”, may be in the category of “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.” CCC 1260.

Correct. If he is ignorant of the gospel of Christ.

But is that an atheist? Isn’t an atheist someone who hears the gospel, knows about God, but refuses Him?

I think that would be the right description, no?

If the person is seeking the truth, he can’t be an atheist…

Just to clarify.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

OOPS!

I see you already answered, Vico.

Can’t keep up with these posts!

Fran

 

[clem456]

An Atheist is a person without a belief in a god or gods. Many people are not taught the Gospel. Some religions such as Buddhism are included.

See this from Pope Paul VI, Nostra Aetate:2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

This passage addresses other religios systems not atheists, as commonly defined. That’s why I asked how you are defining “atheist”.

 

[Art321]

I am not my ancestors…I do not understand how I can “find my way back” to a organization I have neve belonged tor and never will be a part of…I am Home,I have no other Home to go to… the church of Rome was never Home, so im at a loss on how I would “return” to a place I’ve never been to.

Yes, I suppose that would be usual answer coming from your point of view. Yet, look at it from the Church of Rome’s perspective… The Protestant Reformation started with a sinful priest that went on to start a movement in which the Church lost many souls in Europe and as such views all Protestants as lost children without the successors of the Apostles and the entirety of the Faith.

I do believe in part the problem was also the Church’s fault because many priests and bishops within it became obsessed with power, wealth, and with their own pride. They seemed to have been acting like nothing like the disciples of Christ. Yet despite this, the Church is Holy not because of its sinful members, but rather because She is the Bride of Christ and because the Holy Ghost will guide it in Truth until the end of the ages. I hope you manage to come back… May God be with you!

 

[Art321]

Well this is true (Protestants numbering more than the Orthodox) Protestants do not have the largest communion after the Catholic Church. This belongs to the Eastern Orthodox Church which is the largest communion after the Catholic Church. There is very good reason why the Orthodox have not grown in the last few hundred years and it has to do with the persecution they have encountered. No Church has ever been persecuted like the Orthodox Church. God must see in them the image of His Suffering Son. The Orthodox has collectively followed through the Passion with incredible witness which I believe has helped the Lord to respond with even greater graces for this world. Without this witness of the Suffering Church I am sure the world would have been worse off. It is because of the Orthodox Church’s sufferings that had prevented her to grow as did the other Churches.

Yes, I do believe that our Eastern Brothers and Sisters can teach us many things. I do believe that we would have similar numbers if two things in history never occurred:

1. If Islam had not taken off the ground, the Middle East as well as all Muslims today would be have baptized into the Eastern Churches more than likely.
2. If the Protestant Reformation never occurred, all of Europe would have remained in the Latin Church.

I could be oversimplifying history but these two things would have definitely would have helped our Churches…

Let us continue to walk together in Faith! God bless you brother!

 

[Vico]

An Atheist is a person without a belief in a god or gods. Many people are not taught the Gospel. Some religions such as Buddhism are included.

See this from Pope Paul VI, Nostra Aetate:2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

This passage addresses other religios systems not atheists, as commonly defined. That’s why I asked how you are defining “atheist”.

See post #63. Also note the Collins dictionary definition is:

athiest, noun 1 a person who does not believe in God or gods

 

[clem456]

See post #63. Also note the Collins dictionary definition is:

athiest, noun 1 a person who does not believe in God or gods

How does respect for a conscious decision to reject God fit into that definition?

Is “not believing in God” a counscious decision? And does God respect that decision?

 

[chimo]

Yes, I do believe that our Eastern Brothers and Sisters can teach us many things. I do believe that we would have similar numbers if two things in history never occurred:

1. If Islam had not taken off the ground, the Middle East as well as all Muslims today would be have baptized into the Eastern Churches more than likely.
2. If the Protestant Reformation never occurred, all of Europe would have remained in the Latin Church.

I could be oversimplifying history but these two things would have definitely would have helped our Churches…

Let us continue to walk together in Faith! God bless you brother!

Perhaps God allowed all of this to happen in order to help us. We need to understand that God allows certain sufferings not to punish us but in order for a greater good to come. Pope John Paul II had written that Communism was a necessary evil in order for a greater good to come. If Communism was not there perhaps a greater evil would have appeared. I sense that soon Islam and even the Protestants will give the Church a greater witness. I sense soon God will bring them in. In the matter which God will do this I leave this up to Him. There must be a good reason why God had allowed all of this to happen. In the great fortitude and foreknowledge of God He wants the greater good but this greater good is not easily seen by us. Let me put it this way. What was the greatest evil? It was the murder of God’s Son. We killed Him. Yet from this great evil became the greatest good which will be our redemption. God can use anything to bring forth out this greater good. I am sure someday hopefully the people of Islam and the Protestants will return back to the Catholic Church with perhaps a great number to enter into the Eastern Churches. We need to focus more of what God wants and what God needs especially from us the present Christians that form the basis of His Apostolic Churches.

 

[guanophore]

How does respect for a conscious decision to reject God fit into that definition?

Is “not believing in God” a counscious decision? And does God respect that decision?

I think this is where agnostics differ from atheists. Agnostics just think we can’t know God, or know for sure about God. Atheist make a conscious and willful decision to reject God.

Yes, God respects our right to choose.

newadvent.org/cathen/02040a.htm

 

[frangiuliano115]

Perhaps God allowed all of this to happen in order to help us. We need to understand that God allows certain sufferings not to punish us but in order for a greater good to come. Pope John Paul II had written that Communism was a necessary evil in order for a greater good to come. If Communism was not there perhaps a greater evil would have appeared. I sense that soon Islam and even the Protestants will give the Church a greater witness. I sense soon God will bring them in. In the matter which God will do this I leave this up to Him. There must be a good reason why God had allowed all of this to happen. In the great fortitude and foreknowledge of God He wants the greater good but this greater good is not easily seen by us.** Let me put it this way. What was the greatest evil? It was the murder of God’s Son. We killed Him. Yet from this great evil became the greatest good which will be our redemption. God can use anything to bring forth out this greater good.** I am sure someday hopefully the people of Islam and the Protestants will return back to the Catholic Church with perhaps a great number to enter into the Eastern Churches. We need to focus more of what God wants and what God needs especially from us the present Christians that form the basis of His Apostolic Churches.

In Jesus’ case it’s not like God used His death for a greater good.
It’s more that God had planned from the beginning of time to redeem us and Jesus was the method of redemption based on the sacrificial system and the need for God to redeem us Hmself since sinfull man could not.

Regarding the rest - don’t hold your breath.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes, I suppose that would be usual answer coming from your point of view. Yet, look at it from the Church of Rome’s perspective… The Protestant Reformation started with a sinful priest that went on to start a movement in which the Church lost many souls in Europe and as such views all Protestants as lost children without the successors of the Apostles and the entirety of the Faith.

I do believe in part the problem was also the Church’s fault because many priests and bishops within it became obsessed with power, wealth, and with their own pride. They seemed to have been acting like nothing like the disciples of Christ. Yet despite this, the Church is Holy not because of its sinful members, but rather because She is the Bride of Christ and because the Holy Ghost will guide it in Truth until the end of the ages. I hope you manage to come back… May God be with you!

I do agree with your second pp. In all honesy, and if history is correct, it does seem to me that M. Luther did not want to leave the Catholic church and start his own “religion”.
What started it all was a salesman going through Europe selling indulgences at the request of Rome and Luther thought this was not right. He was trying to change or “reform” the church and was not able to and eventually was forced to leave - if I remember. I believe he was ex-communicated. Many agreed with him and left of their own free will.

Just a comment on your no. 2 in your next post regarding Europe remaining in the Latin Rite had protestantism not come along. Are you under the impression that there are many protestands in Europe? If you’re interested you could look up the stats - which I don’t have - but from personal observation I’d say most Europeans are atheists, or agnostics.
If Protestantism had never come along - we’ll never know what would have been. People here are not concerned with different religions-and catholics, if I may say so, are the most agnostic of all. People that go to little protestant churches are very fervent in their faith.

Fran

 

[Art321]

I do agree with your second pp. In all honesy, and if history is correct, it does seem to me that M. Luther did not want to leave the Catholic church and start his own “religion”.
What started it all was a salesman going through Europe selling indulgences at the request of Rome and Luther thought this was not right. He was trying to change or “reform” the church and was not able to and eventually was forced to leave - if I remember. I believe he was ex-communicated. Many agreed with him and left of their own free will.

Just a comment on your no. 2 in your next post regarding Europe remaining in the Latin Rite had protestantism not come along. **Are you under the impression that there are many protestands in Europe? ** If you’re interested you could look up the stats - which I don’t have - but from personal observation I’d say most Europeans are atheists, or agnostics.
**If Protestantism had never come along - we’ll never know what would have been. People here are not concerned with different religions-and catholics, if I may say so, are the most agnostic of all. ** People that go to little protestant churches are very fervent in their faith.

Fran

I want to address this three points:

1. I’m not so sure about Martin Luther wanting to “reform” the Church from its corruption. I do completely agree that many within the Church of Rome became consumed with power. It boils my blood as I remember watching a movie about the Reformation during my days in high school. I do think the movie was biased, but it was spot on its depiction of the widespread corruption. The faithful truly deserve better especially from people who are in charge of guarding their souls and guiding their spiritual lives. Martin Luther wished to change the Church but obviously not for the better. He himself questioned core doctrines of the Faith. It took the Counter-Reformation to condemn the false movement that he started and took the appropriate response to reform the said corruption.
2. Yes, I am aware of the situation in Europe regarding the Faith in regards to Catholics and Protestants. I would extend this to America as well and from what I have heard many parts of South America. At least in the Church, there are a number of reasons as to why most Catholics don’t practice their Faith anymore. Two of the top of my head has to do with the sex abuse scandals and watering down the Catholic Faith from the liturgy to simply proclaiming the teachings of the Church. Most simply scratch the surface when it comes to learning the Faith. They miss out on our history, extremely rich theology and philosophy, glorious art, a sea of great Catholic literature, our beautiful liturgy in the Traditional Latin Mass and the Ordinary form of the Mass when done correctly. Most Catholics have never even heard of Adoration!! So many things. It truly is sad.
3. I do agree that there are many variables in history and we truly don’t know what could’ve happened. I was speaking of the most realistic situation that could have occurred. If the Church of Rome at the time would have encouraged the faithful to partake more in the life of Church as we do know, I certainly think things would have ended up differently since many members of the laity would have caught on early to the heresy of Luther. Teaching the Holy Faith authentically through holy priests is a must! Even today as it would have been true back then.

 

[Art321]

Perhaps God allowed all of this to happen in order to help us. We need to understand that God allows certain sufferings not to punish us but in order for a greater good to come. Pope John Paul II had written that Communism was a necessary evil in order for a greater good to come. If Communism was not there perhaps a greater evil would have appeared. I sense that soon Islam and even the Protestants will give the Church a greater witness. I sense soon God will bring them in. In the matter which God will do this I leave this up to Him. There must be a good reason why God had allowed all of this to happen. In the great fortitude and foreknowledge of God He wants the greater good but this greater good is not easily seen by us. Let me put it this way. What was the greatest evil? It was the murder of God’s Son. We killed Him. Yet from this great evil became the greatest good which will be our redemption. God can use anything to bring forth out this greater good. I am sure someday hopefully the people of Islam and the Protestants will return back to the Catholic Church with perhaps a great number to enter into the Eastern Churches. We need to focus more of what God wants and what God needs especially from us the present Christians that form the basis of His Apostolic Churches.

Hello again brother!

Yes I do understand what you are trying to say, but some clarity may help here. First I do agree that the worst evil committed by humanity was the murder of the Son of God; yet there is a huge difference between this one instance and all the others. With Christ, I believe God Himself willed it so such great good could come about! He wished to redeem his Creation from sin itself! It is the only thing that God hates after all.

Now with regards to the other instances, I do believe that God tolerates evil to happen so that a greater good can come about. I just don’t believe that God would have willed the world wars, communism, or numerous other disorders of sin to occur. He only tolerates such things so good may come about.

I assume that is what you meant when you said God allows…

 

[frangiuliano115]

I want to address this three points:

1. I’m not so sure about Martin Luther wanting to “reform” the Church from its corruption. I do completely agree that many within the Church of Rome became consumed with power. It boils my blood as I remember watching a movie about the Reformation during my days in high school. I do think the movie was biased, but it was spot on its depiction of the widespread corruption. The faithful truly deserve better especially from people who are in charge of guarding their souls and guiding their spiritual lives. Martin Luther wished to change the Church but obviously not for the better. He himself questioned core doctrines of the Faith. It took the Counter-Reformation to condemn the false movement that he started and took the appropriate response to reform the said corruption.
2. Yes, I am aware of the situation in Europe regarding the Faith in regards to Catholics and Protestants. I would extend this to America as well and from what I have heard many parts of South America. At least in the Church, there are a number of reasons as to why most Catholics don’t practice their Faith anymore. Two of the top of my head has to do with the sex abuse scandals and watering down the Catholic Faith from the liturgy to simply proclaiming the teachings of the Church. Most simply scratch the surface when it comes to learning the Faith. They miss out on our history, extremely rich theology and philosophy, glorious art, a sea of great Catholic literature, our beautiful liturgy in the Traditional Latin Mass and the Ordinary form of the Mass when done correctly. Most Catholics have never even heard of Adoration!! So many things. It truly is sad.
3. I do agree that there are many variables in history and we truly don’t know what could’ve happened. I was speaking of the most realistic situation that could have occurred. If the Church of Rome at the time would have encouraged the faithful to partake more in the life of Church as we do know, I certainly think things would have ended up differently since many members of the laity would have caught on early to the heresy of Luther. Teaching the Holy Faith authentically through holy priests is a must! Even today as it would have been true back then.

We got into this and I’m willing to learn.

Then what do you think Luther was trying to do? The church was basically telling its people that they had to work and pay for salvation. This is why Ephesians 2:8 became the standard bearer for his beliefs. Being saved thru faith by grace and not by works.
He died believing that the host is the body and blood of Christ. You even say the faithful deserved more. What do you think was false about his movement?

I agree with everything else you say in both 2 and 3 and second the emotion. I’m also sad at the liturgy aspect of our church, as you point out.

Living here though, I think that the scandals are not affecting people as much as they are in the states - it was already a big problem when I left. I do very much agree that much watering down has gone on and it has affected both people and the effectiveness of the church. Couldn’t agree more regarding insufficient catichising. Posters will say that it’s up to the person to seek education. Well… It’s not happening! It has to be offerred.

Fran

 

[Vico]

How does respect for a conscious decision to reject God fit into that definition?

Is “not believing in God” a counscious decision? And does God respect that decision?

Sometimes is may be a matter of invincible ignorance and the error is not imputable.

Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable.

Delany, J. (1910). Ignorance. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

 

[guanophore]

Couldn't agree more regarding insufficient catichising.  Posters will say that it's up to the person to seek education. Well... It's not happening!  It has to be offerred.

Fran

I think it is both. Most of the “Catholics” that leave the Church, either because their faith has lapsed, or they become Protestant do so because they have never understood their faith. They never took on the responsibility of their Confirmation, and still have a childish undertanding of their faith, gleaned from early years of mandatory catechism.

 

[friardchips]

I think it is both. Most of the “Catholics” that leave the Church, either because their faith has lapsed, or they become Protestant do so because they have never understood their faith. They never took on the responsibility of their Confirmation, and still have a childish undertanding of their faith, gleaned from early years of mandatory catechism.

If people bother to pray even in periods when they don’t feel anything and they study the saints then these things might not happen. But blame is not a good game. Instead, as a Church, we must look to being encouraging and embracing; to mending and healing.