Is the Roman Catholic Church and the body of Christ one and the same?

[frangiuliano115]

No, it is not clear.
She is right.

Members of the Body sin. It cannot undo their baptism. They no longer remain in a state of grace in which they were sealed in baptism, but sin does not cause a person to be “unbaptized”, “unsealed” or “unadopted”.

Perhaps he meant to say that one must accept and walk in baptismal vows to remain in a state of grace?

One would have to jettison a lot of scripture to accept this point of view. Including the fact that the seal of baptism is permanent!

We believe the CCC because it is a 'sure norm" for teaching the faith.

We believe that those who are validly baptized are sealed into the One Church through faith. They are imperfectly joined (not in full communion) but no longer “outside” the Church.

Perhaps you will meditate on this, Fran, and cease your assertions that EENS is no longer valid?

There are several non-sequitors here. A person who commits a sin may still believe in Christ. A person who lives a lifestyle of sin is not on the way to heaven.

Sin, no matter how many times it is committed, cannot undo the permanent seal of baptism. One can choose to throw away the baptismal grace, and thereby forfeit their heavenly inheritance.

I am not sure how you got from baptism to “going to heaven”. Being baptized places a person in communion with the Church. They are made members of the Body. It does not mean they will not sin, or will persevere to the end.

The arguement you are making here sounds as if you think their relationship with the Body is severed because of sin.

I hope this helps you see that these persons are no longer “outside” the Church.

If he was baptized, he was born again from above. Baptism does not prevent people from sinning.

He was on the day he was baptized. He may have lost his configuration from sin (become disfigured), but that does not undo the baptism.

**

We can certainly say that the murderer is not a faithful Christian who has kept the seal t the very end, or has remained faithful to the demands of baptism. This falling away from the faith,though, does not “unbaptize” or “unseal” him. It just means his last state is worse than the first.

2 Pet. 2: 20For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Yes, Fran. They are dead weight, and are toxic to the Body, but the seal of baptism is permanent.

Sin damages the Body. Paul wrote about this to the Corinthians, who were visiting prostitutes.

I Cor. 6: 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.”…

Paul confirms that those who commit sin join the members of Christ to that sin.**

Great verse to use to support your point Guanophore!!

I suggest you find out what it means. I’m not discussing anything with you since you misunderstand everything, including scripture.

Umm. I think Paul is saying that the body is moving from Christ to the prostitute…

Pointless to comment on the rest. You’re free to think and believe what you wish to.

I’m posting commentary from Haydock. Maybe you’ll believe that. Notice the last sentence.

Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ…and the temple of the Holy Ghost. Man consists of soul and body; by baptism he is made a member of that same mystical body, the Church, of which Christ is the head: In baptism both the soul and body are consecrated to God: they are made the temple of the Holy Ghost, inasmuch as the spirit and grace of God inhabits in men, who are sanctified. Christ redeemed both our souls and bodies, both which he designs to sanctify, and to glorify hereafter in heaven; so that we must look upon both body and soul as belonging to Christ, and not as our own. — Shall I, then, taking the members of Christ, make them the members of an harlot, by a shameful and unlawful commerce? — Fly fornication. Such sins are chiefly to be avoided by flight, and by avoiding the occasions and temptations. Other sins are not committed by such an injury done to the body, but by an abuse of something else, that is different from the body, but by fornication and sins of uncleanness, the body itself is defiled and dishonoured, whereas the body ought to be considered as if it were not our own, being redeemed by our Saviour Christ, consecrated to him, with an expectation of a happy resurrection, and of being glorified in heaven. Endeavour, therefore, to glorify God in your body, by employing it in his service, and bear him in your body by being obedient to his will. (Witham) — We know and we believe the we carry about Jesus Christ in our bodies, but it is the shame and condemnation of a Christian to live as if he neither knew or believed it. If fornication is a great crime in a pagan, in a Christian it is a species of sacrilege, accompanied with injustice and ingratitude.** Whoever yields to impurity, converts his body into the temple of Satan, glorifies and carries him about, tearing away the members of Jesus Christ, to make them the members of a harlot.
**

Haydock Catholic Bible Commentary

 

[guanophore]

 I'm not discussing anything with you since you misunderstand everything, including scripture.

What was that you were saying about the judgmental attitude of some of the CAF members?

Umm. I think Paul is saying that the body is moving from Christ to the prostitute…

He is saying that a baptized Christian, a person adopted into the Body of Christ, has joined the members of Christ to a prostitute.

I notice he does NOT say that the person is no longer a member of the Body…

 

[frangiuliano115]

Perhaps it would help to have a discussion about what a sacrament is.
I don’t have the time or energy to do it.

I’m wiling. I used to tell my catechism kids that a sacrament is a visible sign of the Love of God. Basically, that’s what it is, but here’s what the CCC says.

I learned how to copy and paste to here so it’ll save me a lot of typing which is why I was just giving the ccc no’s before. I can’t copy the number because it’s in blue and it goes to a link…

WHAT IS A SACRAMENT

CCC no. 1084

“Seated at the right hand of the Father” and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.

CCC no. 1131

The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.

CCC no. 1132

The Church celebrates the sacraments as a priestly community structured by the baptismal priesthood and the priesthood of ordained ministers.

CCC no. 1133

The Holy Spirit prepares the faithful for the sacraments by the Word of God and the faith which welcomes that word in well-disposed hearts. Thus the sacraments strengthen faith and express it.

CCC no. 1134

The fruit of sacramental life is both personal and ecclesial. For every one of the faithful on the one hand, this fruit is life for God in Christ Jesus; for the Church, on the other, it is an increase in charity and in her mission of witness.

This is great!!

Okay. Now if you read 1134 it says that the fruit of sacramental life is both personal and ecclesial. The fruit if life for God in Christ Jesus.

Guanophore, without realizing it, is practically saying that he believes in OSAS!!
If I’m in the Body of Christ I’m saved and there must be fruit.

Fruit cannot be killing one person every week. So I must not be in the Body of Christ since I would be saved and how can I be if I’m murdering all the time?

The priest I spoke to about this (am I on the right thread??) said that baptism makes you a member of a church because the seal cannot be broken, but you can decide, at any time, not to be a member of the Body. (which would be lose of salvation).

Does this not make sense??

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

What was that you were saying about the judgmental attitude of some of the CAF members?

He is saying that a baptized Christian, a person adopted into the Body of Christ, has joined the members of Christ to a prostitute.

I notice he does NOT say that the person is no longer a member of the Body…

Ummm, it’s people’s SOULS you cannot judge.

Which is what I see happening on some poster’s remarks.

Can a TEMPLE OF SATAN also be THE BODY OF CHRIST?

 

[frangiuliano115]

Perhaps it would help to have a discussion about what a sacrament is.
I don’t have the time or energy to do it.

I think I should have said that there’s a lot more but I can’t post it all.

For instance, No. 1129 is good too:

The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

Is a murderer conformed to the Son of God?
Question is not meant for you.

Fran
I like this copy and paste, but I fear I may forget how to express in my own words!!

 

[guanophore]

Ummm, it’s people’s SOULS you cannot judge.

Which is what I see happening on some poster’s remarks.

you misunderstand everything, including scripture.

Are you saying this is not a judgment on my intellect/attitude?

I’m posting commentary from Haydock. Maybe you’ll believe that.

Do you honestly think that Haydock will support your claim that a baptized person who sins is no longer baptized?

Notice the last sentence.

Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ…and the temple of the Holy Ghost. Man consists of soul and body; by baptism he is made a member of that same mystical body, the Church, of which Christ is the head: In baptism both the soul and body are consecrated to God: they are made the temple of the Holy Ghost, inasmuch as the spirit and grace of God inhabits in men, who are sanctified. Christ redeemed both our souls and bodies, both which he designs to sanctify, and to glorify hereafter in heaven; so that we must look upon both body and soul as belonging to Christ, and not as our own. — Shall I, then, taking the members of Christ, make them the members of an harlot, by a shameful and unlawful commerce? — Fly fornication. Such sins are chiefly to be avoided by flight, and by avoiding the occasions and temptations. Other sins are not committed by such an injury done to the body, but by an abuse of something else, that is different from the body, **but by fornication and sins of uncleanness, the body itself is defiled and dishonoured, whereas the body ought to be considered as if it were not our own, being redeemed by our Saviour Christ, consecrated to him, with an expectation of a happy resurrection, and of being glorified in heaven. Endeavour, therefore, to glorify God in your body, by employing it in his service, and bear him in your body by being obedient to his will. (Witham) — We know and we believe the we carry about Jesus Christ in our bodies, but it is the shame and condemnation of a Christian to live as if he neither knew or believed it. If fornication is a great crime in a pagan, in a Christian it is a species of sacrilege, accompanied with injustice and ingratitude. Whoever yields to impurity, converts his body into the temple of Satan, glorifies and carries him about, tearing away the members of Jesus Christ, to make them the members of a harlot.
**

Haydock Catholic Bible Commentary

He seems to support the point that a person is defiled by joining the members of Christ to sinful activity. I don’t see where he is saying one no longer carries the baptismal seal?

Can a TEMPLE OF SATAN also be THE BODY OF CHRIST?

Perhaps we just have a different understanding of what it means to be a member of the Body of Christ. Individuals are members of His Body, but not the whole of it. An individual can fall into sin, and become a temple of satan, but that does not undo the permanent seal of baptism.

Guanophore, without realizing it, is practically saying that he believes in OSAS!!

I think you might be suffering an identity crisis, Fran. This is the position YOU are advocating, with which I disagree.

You have championed the position that a baptized person who commits murder is not longer a member of the Body, because they have not produced good fruit. You have also claimed that a priest has confirmed that a person must embrace their baptismal vows in order to be considered a member of the body. This is not according to Catholic Teaching.

If I’m in the Body of Christ I’m saved and there must be fruit.

This represents a Calvanist/OSAS position.

Fruit cannot be killing one person every week. So I must not be in the Body of Christ since I would be saved and how can I be if I’m murdering all the time?

You have drawn a false conclusion based upon a false premise. A person is made a member of the Body of Christ in Baptism. This is a fact, whether or not they produce fruit.
If this were not true, them babies could not be considered joined to the Body at baptism, since they cannot produce fruit.

The priest I spoke to about this (am I on the right thread??) said that baptism makes you a member of a church because the seal cannot be broken,

At least we are in agreement on tha point.

but you can decide, at any time, not to be a member of the Body. (which would be lose of salvation).

This statement contradicts the Scripture and the Teaching of the Church.

1. The seal of baptism is permanent. One cannot be “unadopted”
2. A person’s will cannot undo the action of the Holy Spirit. The circumcision made without hands is a divine intervention.
3. Becoming a member of the Body does not equate to salvation. Not everyone perseveres until the end.

 

[guanophore]

Patrick, you’re doing what Guanophore does: You’re confusing me! You seem to be saying two different things.

It seems like you sometimes have difficulty holding two ideas that seem “opposite” to you, when they are not mutually exclusive.

First of all, I don’t think we should be sitting here deciding who’s going to heaven and who’s going to hell.

You are the only one here who has suggested that being made a member of His Body equates to being “saved”.

Then you say we should enter through the narrow gate. The Catholic church is the single PORTAL.

Jesus only founded one Church.

I don’t remember reading anywhere in scripture that I must believe in the Church to be saved. I become a member of the Church, once I AM saved.

The Church teaches that we become members through Baptism.

Now you proclaim that salvation MIGHT conditionally be possible outside the Catholic Church.

No, Fran. It is you that is considering our separated brethren “outside”.

I think God is big and I think He can decide whom He wants and whom He doesn't want without any help from us.

This is why we believe that he mysteriously joins those He wishes to save into His One Body.

This is another post where you keep referring to those who have been joined to the One Body in Baptism as “outside”.

FOR GUANOPHORE

Now you proclaim that salvation MIGHT conditionally be possible outside the Catholic Church.

In the above I was saying that people outside the Catholic Church could be saved (and it’s not our place to decide who is saved and who is lost).l

Here you are referring to non-Catholic Christians, claiming still that they are “outside” the Church.

Is it just that you’re unwilling to say. “Yes. Those outside the Catholic church can be saved.” Plain and simple.

Fran

You are correct in this statement. I am not willing to contradict the teaching of the Church in this matter. The Church teaches that Baptism has placed them in communion, and made them members of the One Body. I am also not willing to deny the infallible doctrines of the Church, such as EENS.:nope:

 

[frangiuliano115]

Are you saying this is not a judgment on my intellect/attitude?

Do you honestly think that Haydock will support your claim that a baptized person who sins is no longer baptized?

He seems to support the point that a person is defiled by joining the members of Christ to sinful activity. I don’t see where he is saying one no longer carries the baptismal seal?

Perhaps we just have a different understanding of what it means to be a member of the Body of Christ. Individuals are members of His Body, but not the whole of it. An individual can fall into sin, and become a temple of satan, but that does not undo the permanent seal of baptism.

I think you might be suffering an identity crisis, Fran. This is the position YOU are advocating, with which I disagree.

You have championed the position that a baptized person who commits murder is not longer a member of the Body, because they have not produced good fruit. You have also claimed that a priest has confirmed that a person must embrace their baptismal vows in order to be considered a member of the body. This is not according to Catholic Teaching.

This represents a Calvanist/OSAS position.

You have drawn a false conclusion based upon a false premise. A person is made a member of the Body of Christ in Baptism. This is a fact, whether or not they produce fruit.
If this were not true, them babies could not be considered joined to the Body at baptism, since they cannot produce fruit.

At least we are in agreement on tha point.

This statement contradicts the Scripture and the Teaching of the Church.

1. The seal of baptism is permanent. One cannot be “unadopted”
2. A person’s will cannot undo the action of the Holy Spirit. The circumcision made without hands is a divine intervention.
3. Becoming a member of the Body does not equate to salvation. Not everyone perseveres until the end.

Who said anything about baptismal seals? You ARE obsessed!

 

[guanophore]

It sounds like you’re on a mission. What you’re really doing is making christians reading along that are not catholic think we’re living in the dark ages.

When a person accuses another of what they themselves are doing it is called projection.

It is you that are clinging to the “dark ages” by insisting that our separated brethren are still “outside the church”.

Much has changed in our church, but many refuse to believe it. Or they’re using incorrect language which leaves one wondering.

YOu are right, Fran. It would support understanding much more if you stopped denying EENS, and accept what the Church has proclaimed, that all who are validly baptized are not “outside” the Body.

As I’ve said before, we should leave God’s job to God, and that includes knowing who has attained salvation.

No, Fran, you are the only one here now who has espoused the position that belonging to the Body = salvation.

you are apparently able to tell me if even those outside the church are saved!

No, Fran, you have misunderstood. We are telling you that you are in error in saying that EENS is no longer “valid”. We are trying to tell you that the Church recognizes and formally teaches that those who have been validly baptized are put into sacramental communion with His One Body, the Church.

You seem very confused about this, perhaps because it is difficult for you to relinquish your pre-Vatican 2 concept? You posted this from the Catechism:

CCC no. 1271.

It says that baptism is the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Then you state:

Great sentence even for those who believe that there is no salvation outside the church

So it seems like your brain is just not processing what the Church teaches. Baptsim is our foundation of communion (albeit imperfect communion). It makes our non-Catholic members of the CC. They are no longer “outside” the church, as you keep asserting.

For men WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST and have been properly baptized… are put in communion with the catholic church.

So here is what I am wondering. What will have to happen to convince you that the Church still teaches EENS? What would have to happen for you to actually embrace what is printed here? Is there anything that could get you to stop posting the error that these persons are “outside” the church?

t that he’s baptized make any difference? Is he going to heaven anyway?

… baptism constitutes the sacramental bond existing amoung all who through it are reborn.

If this is true, then how can you defend the position that they are still “outside”?

 

[guanophore]

Hmmmmm.

It certainly wasn’t ME who said that anybody is on the outside!

Please go back and reread ALL my posts beginning in July 2015.

Thank you.

You indicated that you are not as young as you used to be. Perhaps you are having some senior moments, or memory problems?

Regarding my post no. 311
in which I state that even non catholics, or **those outside the church are saved:
**
frangiuliano115;1348048:

Speak of strange things which you have difficulty accepting –

It seems that you are having difficulty accepting that these persons are no longer “outside” the Church.

 

[frangiuliano115]

When a person accuses another of what they themselves are doing it is called projection.

It is you that are clinging to the “dark ages” by insisting that our separated brethren are still “outside the church”.

YOu are right, Fran. It would support understanding much more if you stopped denying EENS, and accept what the Church has proclaimed, that all who are validly baptized are not “outside” the Body.

No, Fran, you are the only one here now who has espoused the position that belonging to the Body = salvation.

No, Fran, you have misunderstood. We are telling you that you are in error in saying that EENS is no longer “valid”. We are trying to tell you that the Church recognizes and formally teaches that those who have been validly baptized are put into sacramental communion with His One Body, the Church.

You seem very confused about this, perhaps because it is difficult for you to relinquish your pre-Vatican 2 concept? You posted this from the Catechism:

Then you state:

So it seems like your brain is just not processing what the Church teaches. Baptsim is our foundation of communion (albeit imperfect communion). It makes our non-Catholic members of the CC. They are no longer “outside” the church, as you keep asserting.

So here is what I am wondering. What will have to happen to convince you that the Church still teaches EENS? What would have to happen for you to actually embrace what is printed here? Is there anything that could get you to stop posting the error that these persons are “outside” the church?

If this is true, then how can you defend the position that they are still “outside”?

Ummmmm. I think YOU are the one who has them outside the church.
I LOVE my brethren in Christ. I feel like we belong to one big, happy club.

Anyone reading along intently will know this to be true.
And for those who don’t really care - it doesn’t all matter.

Doing lots of paperwork. Thanks for the breaks.
It’s so nice to be misunderstood all the time --gives me the chance to go get another cappuccio; they’re so good.

 

[clem456]

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the **gateway to **life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission:
…
1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.
…
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.
…
1266…Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
…
Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ
…
1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.76 From now on, he is called to be…
… 1270 “Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church” and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.
…
An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.
…
1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life “marked with the sign of faith,”
…

Note the “acting” words, signifying the response that Baptism both makes possible and ask for in response to it.
Baptism is indelible and permanent, but it is not an “innoculation” for the attainment of salvation. The font must remain open. Grace must remain “active”.
The lifelong cooperation of the baptised is necessary, God will not force himself on us. The seal might be indelible, the good will of the baptized is not. Lifelong adherence to Jesus Christ is asked for to remain part of his Body.

An analogy for the being a member of the Body of Christ might go like this (any analogy is going to be inadequate for this…)

The Body of Christ is like a river, all the water flowing together in the same direction. We are “got wet” in the river by Baptism. All the baptized are in the river, but not all are swimming with the flow (body). The punch line is:

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom

 

[frangiuliano115]

Note the “acting” words, signifying the response that Baptism both makes possible and ask for in response to it.
Baptism is indelible and permanent, but it is not an “innoculation” for the attainment of salvation. The font must remain open. Grace must remain “active”.
The lifelong cooperation of the baptised is necessary, God will not force himself on us. The seal might be indelible, the good will of the baptized is not. Lifelong adherence to Jesus Christ is asked for to remain part of his Body.

An analogy for the being a member of the Body of Christ might go like this (any analogy is going to be inadequate for this…)

The Body of Christ is like a river, all the water flowing together in the same direction. We are “got wet” in the river by Baptism. All the baptized are in the river, but not all are swimming with the flow (body). The punch line is:

I did some copy and pasting back on page 13. Just learned this morning. But it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Of course all the above is correct. You’re very good at picking out the correct verses to post. I wonder if that other poster realizes that if he were correct he’d be espousing OSAS!

I like to use the marriage analogy since I’ve been married a very long time. A venial sin is when a husband and wife argue. A mortal sin is when they get divorced. A mortal sin SEPARATES one from God. What could be more clear?

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

You indicated that you are not as young as you used to be. Perhaps you are having some senior moments, or memory problems?
frangiuliano115;13480488:

Regarding my post no. 311
in which I state that even non catholics, or **those outside the church are saved:
**

It seems that you are having difficulty accepting that these persons are no longer “outside” the Church.



Regarding your continuous personal insults to me:

By this shall all men know that you are my disciples
That you love one another.

Are you a disciple?

 

[adrift]

“Pope Francis is under attack for saying that outside the Church there is no salvation: it’s a “poke in the eye” says one Presbyterian. Here is why he’s wrong

 

[adrift]

I did some copy and pasting back on page 13. Just learned this morning. But it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Of course all the above is correct. You’re very good at picking out the correct verses to post. I wonder if that other poster realizes that if he were correct he’d be espousing OSAS!

I like to use the marriage analogy since I’ve been married a very long time. A venial sin is when a husband and wife argue. A mortal sin is when they get divorced. A mortal sin SEPARATES one from God. What could be more clear?
Fran

FYI your settings make the difference of how many pages are displayed for instance my settings are 100 post per page so this thread is now three pages long for me.

Divorce is not ipso facto a mortal sin Canon Law Made Easy

 

[frangiuliano115]

FYI your settings make the difference of how many pages are displayed for instance my settings are 100 post per page so this thread is now three pages long for me.

Divorce is not ipso facto a mortal sin Canon Law Made Easy

I was speaking to Clem 456 and not to you.

You can answer if you wish, but you’re bickering again.

i wasn’t discussing DIVORCE

I was telling Clem of an analogy I use. It’s so CLEAR.

 

[clem456]

I did some copy and pasting back on page 13. Just learned this morning. But it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Of course all the above is correct. You’re very good at picking out the correct verses to post. I wonder if that other poster realizes that if he were correct he’d be espousing OSAS!

I like to use the marriage analogy since I’ve been married a very long time. A venial sin is when a husband and wife argue. A mortal sin is when they get divorced. A mortal sin SEPARATES one from God. What could be more clear?

Fran

The challenge is, knowing all that by analogy:
the sacrament of marriage is an objective reality. It effects what it signifies, it has permanence, regardless of the couple’s subjective disposition to it.
So
if the individuals are committed to being one with each other and one with Christ in their marriage,
by their continuing good will, they can endure through mortal sin without dissolving the source of their bond.

(please noooo God, let’s not start talking about annulments etc…)

 

[adrift]

I was speaking to Clem 456 and not to you.

You can answer if you wish, but you’re bickering again.

i wasn’t discussing DIVORCE

I was telling Clem of an analogy I use. It’s so CLEAR.

:crutches:

I apologies if you think I was bickering. I do not believe correcting false information is bickering.
It isn’t clear when it is false.

You probably meant to say divorce and remarried that would have been a good analogy.

Mortal sin does separate us from God. Does that mean that our Baptism is erased? Does that mean that we are no longer His children? You have a really good point but it gets lost with abrasive answers.
Two issues are getting mixed up together

1. Baptism
2. Sin after baptism
   Baptism makes a children of God. It does not mean that we are saved. We sin and are separated from God but that does not undo our baptism.
   There are three forms of baptism
   Sacramental
   Desire
   Blood
   You can only be baptized once and anyone who is baptized belongs to the Catholic Church. It doesn’t matter if that baptism is Lutheran, baptized etc. There are those whose baptism are not recognized as valid such as the LDS.

What happens when you sin after baptism?

As you said, mortal sin separates us from God. What does separation mean?
What it doesn’t mean is that we are unbaptized. God is still are Father although we have lost communion with Him which may be restored through penance.

 

[guanophore]

Who said anything about baptismal seals?

Hmmm…Who might have made some posts about baptism?

The priest I spoke to about this (am I on the right thread??) said that baptism makes you a member of a church because the seal cannot be broken. Does this not make sense??

Fran

I’m posting commentary from Haydock. Maybe you’ll believe that.

Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ…and the temple of the Holy Ghost. Man consists of soul and body; by baptism he is made a member of that same mystical body, the Church, of which Christ is the head: In baptism both the soul and body are consecrated to God: they are made the temple of the Holy Ghost, inasmuch as the spirit and grace of God inhabits in men, who are sanctified. Christ redeemed both our souls and bodies, both which he designs to sanctify, and to glorify hereafter in heaven; so that we must look upon both body and soul as belonging to Christ, and not as our own. — Shall I, then, taking the members of Christ, make them the members of an harlot, by a shameful and unlawful commerce? — Fly fornication. Such sins are chiefly to be avoided by flight, and by avoiding the occasions and temptations. Other sins are not committed by such an injury done to the body, but by an abuse of something else, that is different from the body, but by fornication and sins of uncleanness, the body itself is defiled and dishonoured, whereas the body ought to be considered as if it were not our own, being redeemed by our Saviour Christ, consecrated to him, with an expectation of a happy resurrection, and of being glorified in heaven. Endeavour, therefore, to glorify God in your body, by employing it in his service, and bear him in your body by being obedient to his will. (Witham) — We know and we believe the we carry about Jesus Christ in our bodies, but it is the shame and condemnation of a Christian to live as if he neither knew or believed it. If fornication is a great crime in a pagan, in a Christian it is a species of sacrilege, accompanied with injustice and ingratitude.** Whoever yields to impurity, converts his body into the temple of Satan, glorifies and carries him about, tearing away the members of Jesus Christ, to make them the members of a harlot.
**

Haydock Catholic Bible Commentary

I have a friend who insists that if you’re baptized you’re a member of the Body.

CCC no. 1271. You can reread it too.

It says that baptism is the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.

For men WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST and have been properly baptized… are put in communion with the catholic church.

… baptism constitutes the sacramental bond existing amoung all who through it are reborn.

Go on to 1272>

…The person baptized is configured to Christ.

pp no. 1274

The faithful christian who has kept the seal till the very end, remaining faithful to the demands of his baptism… Fran

BTW, we’re all sanctified.

You received both justification and sanctification at baptism

Regarding the hereditary stain. I hope we do understand that this stain is removed at baptism AND sanctifying grace is infused. I found the following on catholicism.about.com/the sacrament of baptism :

The Effects of the Sacrament of Baptism

Baptism has six primary effects, which are all supernatural graces:

1. The removal of the guilt of both Original Sin (the sin imparted to all mankind by the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden) and personal sin (the sins that we have committed ourselves).
2. The remission of all punishment that we owe because of sin, both temporal (in this world and in Purgatory) and eternal (the punishment that we would suffer in hell).
3. The infusion of grace in the form of sanctifying grace (the life of God within us); the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit; and the three theological virtues.
4. Becoming a part of Christ.
5. Becoming a part of the Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ on earth.
6. Enabling participation in the sacraments, the priesthood of all believers, and the growth in grace.

Also, I’m sure you know, that at baptism all sins - sins - are also removed. For instance if an adult gets baptized; at that moment he has no sins at all on his soul. If he were to die at that moment he’d go straight to heaven.
Fran

You ARE obsessed!

It is important to me that the faith not be misrepresented here on CAF

So, after reading all these things you have written about what baptism does, are you still prepared to support your assertion that one can become “unbaptized”?

Does murder (or any other sin) erase the effects of the sacrament?