Is the Vatican close to clearing up the issue on the requirements for headcoverings?

[Carolinagirl411]

WHY is this such a big deal? A lot of minor issues are blown out of proportion in this forum. Granted there is a lot of productive and meaningful discussion as well. But what I don’t understand is, why is the fact that some women choose to wear head coverings and some don’t offend or upset so many people. I choose to wear it b/c I personally feel that I’m showing reverence. Someone else may not feel comfortable doing so. I’m not going to jump down their throats b/c of it. I don’t think the Vatican is going to issue any statements or laws or whatever requiring women to now wear head coverings after all we’ve been through. I still would like to retain the right to wear it if I so choose.

However, I heard that if you go to a traditional Latin mass you have to have your head covered. I think it is an interesting part of history and I’m not threatened by it in the slightest.:harp:

 

[He_Man]

WHY is this such a big deal? A lot of minor issues are blown out of proportion in this forum. Granted there is a lot of productive and meaningful discussion as well. But what I don’t understand is, why is the fact that some women choose to wear head coverings and some don’t offend or upset so many people. I choose to wear it b/c I personally feel that I’m showing reverence. Someone else may not feel comfortable doing so. I’m not going to jump down their throats b/c of it. I don’t think the Vatican is going to issue any statements or laws or whatever requiring women to now wear head coverings after all we’ve been through. I still would like to retain the right to wear it if I so choose.

However, I heard that if you go to a traditional Latin mass you have to have your head covered. I think it is an interesting part of history and I’m not threatened by it in the slightest.:harp:

I think because though in and of itself it seems minor, it represents a threat to some people, for whatever reason; typically this is their own pride. I personally don’t think twice when I see women with mantillas, and don’t think twice when I see without them.

Much like mandated kneeling, receiving or not receiving His Precious Blood, and others, some people see these as an affront to their individuality, or simply don’t see the importance, and thus, choose not to want to obey. That’s pride.

 

[JReducation]

goofyjim:

“But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.” 1 Corinthians 11:5

“If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him know the things that I write to you, that they are the commandments of the Lord” 1 Corinthians 14:7

It is ordained by God Himself. Following that, it was a perpetual custom until mid-Vatican II when a misrepresentation of a statement by Bugnini lead to women disregarding the veil.

Additionally, as far as I can see in Canon Law, the 1917 rule has not been replaced and it is therefore still active (see new Code canons 5, 20, 21, 27, 28).

The biblical citations that you are offering were part of the tradition of the time. The Church never interpreted them as law. Paul was taking this from the Judaic tradition of the time. The reason for it was that in the Judaic tradition it was a sign of cleanliness.

As to the canons cited, the target audience is not the laity. The target audience is Canon Lawyers and Bishops. The entire section is designed to spell out for lawyers and bishops how to interpret and apply Canon Law. This section is what we call in theology, canonical methodology.

One must always look at the target audience when reading the different sections of Canon Law. The headings of the sections usually give you a good indication to whom it is addressed.

JR

 

[JReducation]

If it was sinful for a woman to not wear headcovering, wouldn’t our Holy Father have thrown this woman out of church rather than give her Holy Communion?

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/paulson/blog/18Rings-for-Cardinals.jpg

There used to be a sign at the entrance to St. Peter’s on dress code, a head covering was part of it.

This sign has been changed after Benedict XVI became Pope. The head covering is no longer on the list, nor are skirts for women or veils for sisters.

I’m sue that the Holy Father had nothing to do with this, as the Vatican State is run by the Secretary of State and there is a special office that takes care of the affairs of the Basilica itself.

But, if such an office has the authority to change the dress code, it stands to reason that they will change it in conformity to Church law.

In the diocese of Philadelphia there was an issue about 25 years ago about a congregation of sisters who had never had a habit. It was a congregation that had been founded in the 1940s. The former archbishop wanted all women religious to wear a habit. The issue was taken up by Canon lawyers and it was determined that the Archbishop’s wishes did not apply to this congregation, because the habit with head covering was not part of their tradition. The canon lawyers gave the archbishop a simple piece of advice. Either accept the sisters with their religious tradtion and benefit from the good work that they do in the diocese or ask them to leave the diocese. But you can’t make them do what is not part of their charism and what is not in their Constitutions, because the Constitutions overrule the local bishop in congregations of Pontifical Right.

This is just a simple example of how strictly the Church observed this custom. Had it been a big issue for the Church, they would not have approved the founding of a congregation with no habit and no veil.

At the Good Friday Stations of the Cross, one of the people who carried the cross was a Sister from an African Congregation. She wore traditional African garb. This is the habit of her congregation. I believe that the planning committee would not have chosen her to carry the cross for an event where the Pope was presiding if there were an issue with head dress or clothes.

We have to relax and do as we feel comfortable with regards to head covering. I have seen them worn and they are beautiful and a sign of reverence and respect.

But to make it a requirement is to focus on something that is far less important than world hunger, war, divorce, child abuse, discrimination, sexual abuse, abortion, hatred, materialism and the many other ills that the Gospel must address.

JR

 

[jeanannemarie]

I refer back to that insane comment that if the pope told the one poster he had to come to mass in a skirt he would do because of obedience. That kind of blind obedience is frightening.

As I was reading this banter about men wearing skirts, etc;, it ocurred to me that my beloved son who is in seminary now dresses everyday in a long dress-type garment. As his mother, I know what he wears under it. Just a bit of humor for you all.

 

[Cat]

This topic is related to something that I have started doing at my church, after hearing a great presentation by a priest from the Chicago area who suggested it.

I have been carrying my Bible to church, and instead of following the readings from the missal, I’ve been using my Bible. It’s nice because I can mark the passages and if Father says anything particularly pithy in his homily, I can make a note of it in the margin of my Bible.

I have qualms about this, since it is something “different” than what most of the people in the Mass are doing. Hopefully, no one is paying any attention to me at all. But I am concerned that doing this makes me “stand out.” That would be bad.

OTOH, I hope that people DO notice, and perhaps decide that it would be a good idea to bring their Bibles to church, too. According to the Chicago priest, Catholics were the ones who originally carried their Bibles to church, but then they stopped doing it. I’m not sure what period in history he is referring to. But I do know that the Bible was given to us by the Catholic Church, and it makes sense to me to actually use the gift that they have given us.

But if people don’t bring their Bibles to church, it doesn’t bother me at all and I don’t think they’re unspiritual. Some people just don’t want to worry about their Bibles getting wrecked up. Understandable and commendable. It’s especially tough if you have little kids–a Bible is just one more thing to tote along!

So you see, there are other “devotions” and “practices” that fall into the same category as head-coverings because they are different than the norm but still allowed for those who choose to do them.

Actually, I’m not so concerned that women wear head-coverings in church as I am that men, even older men, and boys don’t remove their hats in church (or during the Star Spangled Banner at sporting events, either). To me, this is rude. But I guess I’m old-fashioned. I will say this, though–I think a man who removes his hat during appropriate times is sexier than the man who leaves his hat on! (There, men! Think about THAT next time you leave your hat on in church!)

 

[JReducation]

This topic is related to something that I have started doing at my church, after hearing a great presentation by a priest from the Chicago area who suggested it.

I have been carrying my Bible to church, and instead of following the readings from the missal, I’ve been using my Bible. It’s nice because I can mark the passages and if Father says anything particularly pithy in his homily, I can make a note of it in the margin of my Bible.

I have qualms about this, since it is something “different” than what most of the people in the Mass are doing. Hopefully, no one is paying any attention to me at all. But I am concerned that doing this makes me “stand out.” That would be bad.

OTOH, I hope that people DO notice, and perhaps decide that it would be a good idea to bring their Bibles to church, too. According to the Chicago priest, Catholics were the ones who originally carried their Bibles to church, but then they stopped doing it. I’m not sure what period in history he is referring to. But I do know that the Bible was given to us by the Catholic Church, and it makes sense to me to actually use the gift that they have given us.

But if people don’t bring their Bibles to church, it doesn’t bother me at all and I don’t think they’re unspiritual. Some people just don’t want to worry about their Bibles getting wrecked up. Understandable and commendable. It’s especially tough if you have little kids–a Bible is just one more thing to tote along!

So you see, there are other “devotions” and “practices” that fall into the same category as head-coverings because they are different than the norm but still allowed for those who choose to do them.

Actually, I’m not so concerned that women wear head-coverings in church as I am that men, even older men, and boys don’t remove their hats in church (or during the Star Spangled Banner at sporting events, either). To me, this is rude. But I guess I’m old-fashioned. I will say this, though–I think a man who removes his hat during appropriate times is sexier than the man who leaves his hat on! (There, men! Think about THAT next time you leave your hat on in church!)

I’ll remember that.

I have to confess that the only men whom I have seen with hats on in church are my brothers when they visit me. They wear their kippahs. But they’re Jewish and they feel uncomfortable entering a place of worship without the kippah.

Where do you live that men wear hats in church?

That sounds too strange, unless you’re Jewish, Muslim or Hindu and are visiting a Catholic church.

JR

 

[elt1956]

It truly is sad to see so many modernized Leftists and Feminists in the Church with absolutely no respect for history, tradition, and authority. Not talking to anyone in particular…

Oh yes, you are. Talking to anyone in particular. Can’t explain my aversion to the net right now. Maybe if it comes around I will go back to it again, who knows, if I have a choice, that is.

 

[elt1956]

It truly is sad to see so many modernized Leftists and Feminists in the Church with absolutely no respect for history, tradition, and authority. Not talking to anyone in particular…

I’ll remember that.

I have to confess that the only men whom I have seen with hats on in church are my brothers when they visit me. They wear their kippahs. But they’re Jewish and they feel uncomfortable entering a place of worship without the kippah.

Where do you live that men wear hats in church?

That sounds too strange, unless you’re Jewish, Muslim or Hindu and are visiting a Catholic church.

JR

Just a thought about carrying the Bible to church. I think it would be nice if the priest would have a “short” discussion, maybe after Mass, for those who want to stay, about a reading from the Bible. For some reason, although I am a Cradle Catholic, there wasn’t much mention of the Bible when I was in school and I attended Catholic schools through grade and high school and a couple of years of college when we got into Aquinas, whom I never understood, at least then. The brain was dysfunctional at that time. Guess I should try him again. Peace.

 

[MrS]

I would beg to differ. One of the things I love pointing out to my Church of Christ friends (who are notorious for their subserviant women philosophy) is that we Catholics know how to treat our women.

We do hold women in high regard.

Putting them all in scarves for Mass would seem to contradict that, to some.

If that had been the rule…ever…I could agree with you.

No one wants to be “putting them all in scarves”. That is silly.

I highly respect the many women who choose to wear a headcovering. Not because they know their place, but because they want to continue with a tradition/practice. And they do not need an indult to do it.

.

 

[elt1956]

If that had been the rule…ever…I could agree with you.

No one wants to be “putting them all in scarves”. That is silly.

I highly respect the many women who choose to wear a headcovering. Not because they know their place, but because they want to continue with a tradition/practice. And they do not need an indult to do it.

.

100%

 

[JReducation]

When I was in the missions, back in the 1970s and 80s, the Missionary Servants of the Blessed Trinity worked with us. They had been founded in Maryland around the 1950s, I believe. Anyway, their founder, Fr. Judge and their formation directors, the Capuchin Franciscans, decided that it was not a good thing for the sisters to have a habit of any kind.

They adopted a simple black dress to the knees with white collar. When they went out, they wore a coat and hat, like all women of that time. In fact, they were the only Sisters I ever met who had long hair. They wore it in a donut, like my grandmother. You could see it, becaue indoors they wore nothing on their heads.

When they arrived at our mission in Latin America, one of the priests wanted them to wear a veil, because the Franciscan Sisters who were there wore veils. The local bishop said, “It makes no sense to transfer the traditions of one religious congregation to another. If that were logical, all religious would be one congregation. But they are not, because to each the Holy Spirit gives a different gift.”

I believe that what this wise bishop said applies to the question on this thread. It makes little or no sense to transfer a non essential tradition from one person to another, because to each the Holy Spirit gives different gifts. Let those who want to wear a head covering and those who do not all feel welcomed and loved by us, just as Christ loves them.

JR

 

[elt1956]

When I was in the missions, back in the 1970s and 80s, the Missionary Servants of the Blessed Trinity worked with us. They had been founded in Maryland around the 1950s, I believe. Anyway, their founder, Fr. Judge and their formation directors, the Capuchin Franciscans, decided that it was not a good thing for the sisters to have a habit of any kind.

They adopted a simple black dress to the knees with white collar. When they went out, they wore a coat and hat, like all women of that time. In fact, they were the only Sisters I ever met who had long hair. They wore it in a donut, like my grandmother. You could see it, becaue indoors they wore nothing on their heads.

When they arrived at our mission in Latin America, one of the priests wanted them to wear a veil, because the Franciscan Sisters who were there wore veils. The local bishop said, “It makes no sense to transfer the traditions of one religious congregation to another. If that were logical, all religious would be one congregation. But they are not, because to each the Holy Spirit gives a different gift.”

I believe that what this wise bishop said applies to the question on this thread. It makes little or no sense to transfer a non essential tradition from one person to another, because to each the Holy Spirit gives different gifts. Let those who want to wear a head covering and those who do not all feel welcomed and loved by us, just as Christ loves them.

JR

J. R. You always make perfect sense to me. So silly to quibble over a head covering when there are so many more important things to “quibble” over. Many thanks. Peace.

 

[He_Man]

When I was in the missions, back in the 1970s and 80s, the Missionary Servants of the Blessed Trinity worked with us. They had been founded in Maryland around the 1950s, I believe. Anyway, their founder, Fr. Judge and their formation directors, the Capuchin Franciscans, decided that it was not a good thing for the sisters to have a habit of any kind.

They adopted a simple black dress to the knees with white collar. When they went out, they wore a coat and hat, like all women of that time. In fact, they were the only Sisters I ever met who had long hair. They wore it in a donut, like my grandmother. You could see it, becaue indoors they wore nothing on their heads.

When they arrived at our mission in Latin America, one of the priests wanted them to wear a veil, because the Franciscan Sisters who were there wore veils. The local bishop said, “It makes no sense to transfer the traditions of one religious congregation to another. If that were logical, all religious would be one congregation. But they are not, because to each the Holy Spirit gives a different gift.”

I believe that what this wise bishop said applies to the question on this thread. It makes little or no sense to transfer a non essential tradition from one person to another, because to each the Holy Spirit gives different gifts. Let those who want to wear a head covering and those who do not all feel welcomed and loved by us, just as Christ loves them.

JR

I don’t think that is as much of an issue as the notion (since I agree, unless the regulation is still in effect) that if the Church asks us to do something we don’t like, we’ll simply not do it (as was mentioned here).

That is a much larger issue; that of picking and choosing which rules to follow. That is unacceptable, don’t you agree?

 

[He_Man]

I refer back to that insane comment that if the pope told the one poster he had to come to mass in a skirt he would do because of obedience. That kind of blind obedience is frightening.

As is your apparent lack of faith in your own Church.

But again, pick and choose as you see fit.

 

[elt1956]

I don’t think that is as much of an issue as the notion (since I agree, unless the regulation is still in effect) that if the Church asks us to do something we don’t like, we’ll simply not do it (as was mentioned here).

That is a much larger issue; that of picking and choosing which rules to follow. That is unacceptable, don’t you agree?

Okay Buddy. How about those who CHOOSE to pick and CHOOSE what to follow since Vatican II, including their own interpretations of some statements of Pope John Paul II, stating anything given as tradition etc. after that assemblege, is in error. And those who call any Pope after John XXIII heretical? Why argue over a silly head covering when it hasn’t even been mandated?

 

[He_Man]

Okay Buddy. How about those who CHOOSE to pick and CHOOSE what to follow since Vatican II, including their own interpretations of some statements of Pope John Paul II, stating anything given as tradition etc. after that assemblege, is in error. And those who call any Pope after John XXIII heretical? Why argue over a silly head covering when it hasn’t even been mandated?

I’d say anyone who chooses what they will and will not obey so far as Church’s mandates go is in err. Would you disagree?

I am not the one who said they’d stand in the back of the Church if a new mandate for mantillas wearing came down; I AM the one who said I’d gladly throw on a skirt if the Vatican mandated that, since THAT IS MY JOB.

Again, do you disagree?

I am not arguing over nor do I have any real opinion on mantilla’s; they simply lead to the discussion of obedience. Feel free to throw them out of this conversation and replace them with something else if that is easier so far as discussion goes.

 

[elt1956]

I’d say anyone who chooses what they will and will not obey so far as Church’s mandates go is in err. Would you disagree?

I am not the one who said they’d stand in the back of the Church if a new mandate for mantillas wearing came down; I AM the one who said I’d gladly throw on a skirt if the Vatican mandated that, since THAT IS MY JOB.

Again, do you disagree?

I am not arguing over nor do I have any real opinion on mantilla’s; they simply lead to the discussion of obedience. Feel free to throw them out of this conversation and replace them with something else if that is easier so far as discussion goes.

Boy, you would look sillier in a skirt than I would in a mantilla. I have worn a mantilla. with reverence, before. These days, I just want a choice. If I were to attend a TLM, I would probably wear a mantilla, but that would be my choice. I understand what you mean about the underpinnings of obedience to the church. So let’s stop the silly arguing. Peace.

 

[He_Man]

Boy, you would look sillier in a skirt than I would in a mantilla. I

You’ve obviously never seen my calves…

 

[Cat]

I’ll remember that.

I have to confess that the only men whom I have seen with hats on in church are my brothers when they visit me. They wear their kippahs. But they’re Jewish and they feel uncomfortable entering a place of worship without the kippah.

Where do you live that men wear hats in church?

That sounds too strange, unless you’re Jewish, Muslim or Hindu and are visiting a Catholic church.

JR

Northern Illinois

I think it might be a gangsta thing, but the men and boys in question are not African American.