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goofyjim
Guest
Um…I was referring to guys wearing skirts.
Is the Vatican close to clearing up the issue on the requirements for headcoverings?
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LilyM
Guest
I don’t think some of our fellow posters here were restricting themselves to guys wearing skirts, though.
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elt1956
Guest
Well Goofy, you would probably look as silly in a skirt as He Man. BUT he did intimate he had great calfs/calves. What is the plural of those things below men’s knees? I DON’T KNOW… :dancing: Peace.
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agr4028
Guest
ooooooooh, I need some coffee
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elt1956
Guest
I didn’t read it as I knew what you would have to say.:yawn:
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He_Man
Guest
There seem to two arguments floating through this thread - 1) Whether or not women should wear a head covering and 2) whether or not we as Catholics are obligated to obey Church precepts regardless of what they are.I believe that as long as the dignity of human life is in danger of being suppressed and redefined, as long as man destroys his brothers and sisters through war for the sake of money, power, and territory, as long as we have children who are led astray by a world that promotes promiscuity, drugs, indifferentism to human suffering, and failure to accept responsibility for one’s share of evil in the world, little questions such as this are the least of our worries.
In fact, as long as these other situations exist, how can we even speak of being reverent in front of the Blessed Sacrament because we wear or not wear something on our heads, pray in TLM or NO, sing Kumbaya or Gregorian Chant, etc. It is an affront to Christ to appear before him with all of the proper externals, if we have not attended to any of these sins and done anything to remedy them.
The greatest act of reverence that we can do for God is to love him in our brothers and sisters.
Then we shall stand before him and be worthy. Why can’t people get the example of someone like Mother Teresa or Alberto Hurtado.
We have Christ in the poor and in children who are afraid of the world they live in. Everytime a child hears about another war, another child rape, another killing in his neighborhood, another child who has been abandoned by his or her parents, another child dying of hunger or disease, Christ relieves the agony in the garden through that child who is afraid of the world.
These are real sins. This is why we are sent at the end of mass. To find the children who spend their lives in the Garden in agony with Christ.
JR
I am adressing 2 in this response, fyi.
Basically, you just said “since there are bigger issues to worry about, we shouldn’t sweat people disobeying the Church mandates.”
Isn’t that how this world became such a festering mess to begin with?
Since when did we as Catholics become allowed to choose which 80% of Church rules we want to follow? You’re simply making up beliefs that aren’t endorsed by the Catholic Church. As long as you rare willing to admit that and not act as though the Church is in agreement, fine. But there are a lot of people who read these boards and to claim that that is Church policy is a lie.
You are mitigating Church policy based on your opinion of that policy. I assume you are then okay with people missing Mass, aborting, and contracepting, since there are a lot of people (not me mind you) who don’t see that as a big deal.
That is the standard you just encouraged for them! The Church has never said “obey the rules unless you, the individual, deem them trivial,” unless I am mistaken?
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elt1956
Guest
I think Mr. He Man of the lovely calves, what J. R. is saying is, he is sick of some not seeing the forest for the trees. He in no way said we should not follow the mandates of the Church. In fact I think the Catholic Church is well known for its works of charity and concern for others, right? It is amazing how each of us sees so many different things when reading a post. Now I saw nothing offensive in what he said. . We HAVE forgotten our fellow humans while we argue among ourselves as to who is right and wrong, which Mass to say, should we cover our heads or not, etc. etc. etc. . We ALL belong to the SAME Catholic faith.
Peace. Peace.
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pnewton
Guest
Or as Jesus put it:I think Mr. He Man of the lovely calves, what J. R. is saying is, he is sick of some not seeing the forest for the trees… We HAVE forgotten our fellow humans while we argue among ourselves as to who is right and wrong, which Mass to say, should we cover our heads or not, etc. etc. etc. . We ALL belong to the SAME Catholic faith.
Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
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Carolinagirl411
Guest
I think it is interesting that some one brings up a little topic for discussion in these threads and people end up snipping, bickering, misconstruing statements, jumping down one another’s throats at the simplest comments. I joined the Catholic church this recent Vigil for several reasons. Obviously I feel the Church is Christ’s true church. The other reason is that the Catholics I met were loving, warm, welcoming people that weren’t petty. I had to deal with petty snipping and bickering in the Baptist church…now I’m getting tired of dealing with all the mess people keep throwing at each other. You are God’s children, Christ’s brothers and sisters, START ACTING LIKE IT!
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elt1956
Guest
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He_Man
Guest
Then perhaps if we were in agreement, JR should have said “I agree with you. We have an obligation to follow the rules sets before us. ** However**, I think there are scourges and issues more worthy of our time in terms of discussion, namely, abortion, worldwide famine, and other atrocities.”I think Mr. He Man of the lovely calves, what J. R. is saying is, he is sick of some not seeing the forest for the trees. He in no way said we should not follow the mandates of the Church. In fact I think the Catholic Church is well known for its works of charity and concern for others, right? It is amazing how each of us sees so many different things when reading a post. Now I saw nothing offensive in what he said. . We HAVE forgotten our fellow humans while we argue among ourselves as to who is right and wrong, which Mass to say, should we cover our heads or not, etc. etc. etc. . We ALL belong to the SAME Catholic faith.
I wouldn’t disagree with that.
That would clear things up, rather than yet another challenge.
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elt1956
Guest
Duh…I didn’t see that in the post. Maybe because I agree with him??? Sorry, I guess I am just tired of looking at the trees.
Peace.
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He_Man
Guest
If you are adressing this regarding mantilla, you seem to miss the point, again.
I didn’t realize people who keep the faith of the Church in your hearts AND obey the Church’s rules were pharisees.
I guess that would include Fr. Corapi, JP II, and many others, since they have been very legalistic in the past. I am sure they’d be surprised to know.
Why is it we seem to take two steps forward and one step back in this nauseatingly drawn out thread? Just when we are about to agree that it is both important to obey what the Church teaches AND have a heart that reflects Jesus’s teachings and principles, you type some vague Gospel passage with no context and think that will help the discussion. At least explain your point next time.
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He_Man
Guest
I think you misunderstood. I was saying that if JR agreed with me, he could have simply said that up front. Instead, he started talking about forests and trees, and it wasn’t clear whether he agreed or not, which you claim he did.Duh…I didn’t see that in the post. Maybe because I agree with him??? Sorry, I guess I am just tired of looking at the trees.
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He_Man
Guest
- Just because we are brothers and sisters doesn’t mean we have no obligation to defend the Church from wrongs. I’d lay into any sibling who was screwing up, especially with regards to the Lord.
- I’d rather have passionate Catholics than lukewarm Catholics, ANY DAY. Jesus Himself said He’d spit out the lukewarm. No thanks.
- This is an internet message board used for debate and discussion. That IS the purpose after all…
- Welcome to the Church.
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Carolinagirl411
Guest
What i was trying to say was I’m tired of people jumping down each other’s throats for PETTY things, and automatically taking the judgmental stance when it isn’t necessary. PETTY!!!
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elt1956
Guest
Welcome to the Church. I hope the petty, as you said, differences found in some of the posts haven’t turned you off too much. Sometimes we get so carried away trying to prove a point, we forget which point we are trying to prove.
Peace.
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Conservative
Guest
I can’t address the many posts that I’d like to reply to. But a fancy mantilla is not necessary - any headcovering will do (aside from the Kleenex and bobby-pin, which was an emergency cover when you got to a Church and didn’t have headcovering with you).This is how I heard it too. That’s why I can’t decide whether to get a mantilla or not. If it’s a sign of humility, why make it so fancy? They are beautiful, but since they call attention to the wearer they seem to defeat their purpose.Maybe a little hat or a simple scarf would be better. But if it’s not required, and I haven’t heard anyone say it is or soon will be, why worry about what other people wear?
However, the reason a “little hat” or “scarf” won’t do — IS pride. YUP ! Many women don’t want to wear hats even outside in cold weather - for fear of spoiling their hairdo.
This is not a matter of faith and morals - simple reverence. I’m assuming women are not bound under pain of sin to wear headcovering. Anymore than it’s probably not a sin if we don’t use Holy Water walking in…but we do it! It’s not subservience - just reverence. Women showed it through the ages, if only because it was the style at one time. A woman’s hair has always been considered her “crowning glory” - but is it so hard to want or hold onto small parts of the past - out of reverence? The minute I put my veil on, I know I’m doing it for that reason (although I admit there may be a little pride in wearing one) - but its intention is out of a humbling reverence when in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, the Lord our God. Hat or veil - I’m in favor of headcovering.
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Phemie
Guest
When you say a hat won’t do, could you clarify? Remebering back to my childhood days, t’was a hat I wore, not a veil, when I went to Mass on Sunday. During the week it was usually a small, triangle of fabric with strings attached in the summer tiny.cc/AGFTq
or my knit or fake fur in the winter.
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Carolinagirl411
Guest
Hey guys
I stumbled upon this article
tconl.com/~cathcom/HeadCoverings.pdf
The portion that really hit home for me is
Now one reason for the use of veils is wrapped up in
the mystery of a woman’s femininity which can bear children.
At the moment of conception, when God creates a
soul and it joins its body in the womb of its mother, God’s
creative hands work within her, and since whatever God
touches becomes sacred, we veil it. And since a woman’s
hair is her glory (1 Cor. 11:15), we veil what is her dignity.
We do the same thing in our church, for the glory of the
Tabernacle is veiled because of the sacredness inside; furthermore,
the glory of a consecrated Chalice is veiled before
Mass because of the sacredness of what it holds.
Thus, head coverings should not be considered a sign of
inferiority; rather it is a sign that women are different from
men and even further, that women aren’t men. As a result,
it is a noble act for women to continue this practice,
especially to express their love for God for the womanhood
He has given them.
I stumbled upon this article
tconl.com/~cathcom/HeadCoverings.pdf
The portion that really hit home for me is
Now one reason for the use of veils is wrapped up in
the mystery of a woman’s femininity which can bear children.
At the moment of conception, when God creates a
soul and it joins its body in the womb of its mother, God’s
creative hands work within her, and since whatever God
touches becomes sacred, we veil it. And since a woman’s
hair is her glory (1 Cor. 11:15), we veil what is her dignity.
We do the same thing in our church, for the glory of the
Tabernacle is veiled because of the sacredness inside; furthermore,
the glory of a consecrated Chalice is veiled before
Mass because of the sacredness of what it holds.
Thus, head coverings should not be considered a sign of
inferiority; rather it is a sign that women are different from
men and even further, that women aren’t men. As a result,
it is a noble act for women to continue this practice,
especially to express their love for God for the womanhood
He has given them.
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