Is the Vatican close to clearing up the issue on the requirements for headcoverings?

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I must admit that I AM TRULY AMAZED that** a non issue** has been carried this far. I really think some people just keep it going to see how much they can agitate others. Probably sitting back, laughing and saying look at them go.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Indyann]

After reading all that is before my humble opinion on this issue, I have to admit that I am a bit amused, befuddled and amazed. The issue was answered when the requirement was removed from Canon Law in the (I believe) 1983 edition. It was as some considered, a sign of respect. That said, there is ***NO DISRESPECT *** in a woman not wearing a head covering. The issue is optional. If a woman choses to wear a mantilla, scarf, hat or whatever head covering she desires, so be it. Nothing says she cannot. The respect does not come from what is or is not on the head, but from what is in the heart. Lady’s do whatever your heart desires.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Saponaria]

Amen! The 1983 Canon Law has removed the headcovering requirement and the Vatican itself has clarified that headcovering is a custom with NO normative value, much as some headcoverers and headcovering advocates would like to think otherwise.

Which should be an end of the matter. Sadly some seem to think that wishful thinking will make it not so.

Could you share with me where the Vatican said headcovering has no normative value? Along with maybe a clarification of what normative value means?

 

[Spiller]

I must admit that I AM TRULY AMAZED that** a non issue** has been carried this far. I really think some people just keep it going to see how much they can agitate others. Probably sitting back, laughing and saying look at them go.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

I think they are just “verbalizing” their deep desires and refuse to accept the truth because it would necessarily end their fantasies.

I have seen the same sorta behavior locally when it comes to the maniple. There are a handful that almost seem to worship the wearing of the maniple and refuse to accept that it has been eliminated from the approved vesture for the OF of the Mass.

For both of these groups, female head coverings and the maniple (and there are many others) obviously strike a very important chord somewhere in themselves and I just don’t think they really want to accept the truth.
*
Cover your head? Fine. Don’t cover your head? Also fine – but don’t ever try to suggest that covering one’s head is in any way “better” than not covering one’s head…*

 

[LilyM]

Could you share with me where the Vatican said headcovering has no normative value? Along with maybe a clarification of what normative value means?

Of course:

"Inter Insigniores

October 15, 1976

Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Part 4: Permanent Value of the Attitude of Jesus and the Apostles.

"… But it must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on the head (1 Cor 11:2-6); such requirements no longer have a normative value. "

I think it speaks for itself really - ‘customs of the period’ which are ‘disciplinary practices of minor importance’ cannot be binding in any way, absent Canon Law, on us today. The requirement for veiling was binding before this because it WAS in the 1917 Code of Canon Law. So at the very latest the requirement was removed in 1983 when the 1917 code was replaced, in its entirety, by the 1983 Code of Canon Law.

But if you want further definition, here are some from the Merriam Webster Online Dictionary:

"normative:

1 : of, relating to, or determining norms or standards
2 : conforming to or based on norms
3 : prescribing norms "

"norm:

1: an authoritative standard : model
2: a principle of right action binding upon the members of a group and serving to guide, control, or regulate proper and acceptable behavior
3: average: as a: a set standard of development or achievement usually derived from the average or median achievement of a large group b: a pattern or trait taken to be typical in the behavior of a social group c: a widespread or usual practice, procedure, or custom : rule "

So it’s pretty clear that the requirement to cover no longer has value, or worth or importance, as an ‘authoritative standard’ or a ‘principle of right action binding upon’ today’s Catholics.

 

[piouswoman]

Actually you are not stating the truth – you are providing your personal opinion which is HIGHLY inaccurate. It also smacks just a bit of jealousy too as that woman is obviously good looking.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/paulson/blog/18Rings-for-Cardinals.jpg

How could she receive Holy Communion while wearing a black pants suit and no head covering! The horror!

The Church does not direct women to cover their heads while receiving Holy Communion – from the Pope or anyone else. She is dressed quite appropriately to receive Holy Communion. No, your personal opinion is not “better.”

The Church never directed women to stop covering their heads, and that is FACT.
And this statement:

“It also smacks just a bit of jealousy too as that woman is obviously good looking.”

is hilarious and intended to amuse, I am sure.

 

[Carolinagirl411]

“It also smacks just a bit of jealousy too as that woman is obviously good looking.”

I found that comment interesting as well…first of all I never detected jealousy of how “good looking” that woman was. Attractiveness is always relative anyway and how can you tell , her face is half covered. And why would you attack someone with that statement and be serious? Had to have been a joke, otherwise that is what I would classify as a 4th grade petty jab.

lol sorry I over analyze behavior and the reasoning behind

its the psychologist in me

 

[Spiller]

The Church never directed women to stop covering their heads, and that is FACT.
And this statement:

No where does the Church instruct women to cover their heads at Mass – that’s the FACT. Work with it.

 

[elt1956]

The Church never directed women to stop covering their heads, and that is FACT.
And this statement:

“It also smacks just a bit of jealousy too as that woman is obviously good looking.”

is hilarious and intended to amuse, I am sure.

And OUR Church, yours and mine, haven’t told women TO cover their heads.

 

[piouswoman]

And OUR Church, yours and mine, haven’t told women TO cover their heads.

Yes, I can agree with that…they are too busy being “politically correct”, they are too busy with their respect for man, they are too busy with their modernist agenda that they have neglected to teach.

 

[jc-servant]

Of course the headcovering isn’t required but I think a lot of people on this thread, myself included, who do wear head coverings don’t understand why people get so offended that we do. Well maybe not offended but definitely argumentative. Let me wear my mantilla in peace without lecturing me. I don’t run around church before mass trying to throw kleenex on every female head so just calm down, breathe, and everything will be ok.

I wonder where you are going to mass that anyone says anything about a headcovering? I have never seen anyone approached, lectured, etc. I could not care less what you do so long as it is not disrespectful or disruptive in mass. I do care when some people get IMO prideful and distaining of women who do not cover as if we could not possibly be as modest, humble, womanly or whatever. You may have never acted that way, but it does happen on this forum occasionally.

If a covering were required, I would probably choose hats. In black communities church hats (for any faith) are pretty much a given for women, so culturally it feels more natural to me to wear a hat than a veil. If a particular community does not wear hats every Sunday, then usually the women break them out for Easter, weddings and funerals.

At our late pastor’s funeral, I was the only woman wearing a hat out of 1000s of people in our parish church which I found odd but not disturbing or “personal” in any way. In my parish the Latinas who cover ususally wear a veil or a lace “doily” type thing pinned on (don’t be offended I don’t know the proper name of the little thingy.) We have some Indian women who just lift the drapey part of their sari over their head, but most of them don’t cover every mass.

There is always someone at mass with something on their head, so I say go for it if you want to wear something and try not to worry about what anyone else is thinking about it or what they are wearing.

 

[Ghoti]

OK, maybe I’m wrong, but it seems the Church has cleared up the matter.

I.e. ya can if’n ya wanna, but if’n ya don’t wanna, ya don’t gotta.

If you want to wear a mantilla/veil/hat/bonnet as a sign of devotion or piety, go for it!

No one should look down on you for wearing one, just as they shouldn’t if you decide not to.

 

[Spiller]

Yes, I can agree with that…they are too busy being “politically correct”, they are too busy with their respect for man, they are too busy with their modernist agenda that they have neglected to teach.

The position you are taking which in no way is supported by the Church is a perfect example of why “traditionalists’” views are often discounted or ignored altogether.

That gets pretty rough when real issues are under debate.

 

[Spiller]

Yes, I can agree with that…they are too busy being “politically correct”, they are too busy with their respect for man, they are too busy with their modernist agenda that they have neglected to teach.

Nothing about being “politically correct” – you are simply wrong.

In no way does the Church mandate or encourage women to wear head coverings to Mass. At the same time it does not dissuade women from covering their heads at Mass either.

As others have said it’s up to the individual and they should neither be forced to or kept from covering their heads as the Church is neutral on the Matter.

One practice is not “better” or certainly not more pious than the other.

 

[Spiller]

I wonder where you are going to mass that anyone says anything about a headcovering? I have never seen anyone approached, lectured, etc. I could not care less what you do so long as it is not disrespectful or disruptive in mass. I do care when some people get IMO prideful and distaining of women who do not cover as if we could not possibly be as modest, humble, womanly or whatever. You may have never acted that way, but it does happen on this forum occasionally…

I have to ask the same thing. I cannot imagine that happening although I have seen women get a defensive look on their faces when they donned their head coverings as if they were expecting problems.

I think it might be a psychological martyrdom of sorts.

 

[Carolinagirl411]

JC-Servant

My comment was referring to the hostility on this thread in particular. People accusing me of things that I am not guilty of. I’m new to the church, I read the history, found the tradition of the mantilla or just covering in general and i felt a connection. Being new I didn’t realize the controversy apparently connected to it given the types of comments on this thread of people lashing out. I would not consider myself prideful, at least I hope not since that would defeat the purpose. I love history and I love tradition. One of the reasons I converted was the inspiration I got from visiting the Vatican. Catholicism is such a beautiful, reverent, loving religion. I wanted to take part in the devotion to Christ. People are taking this way out of hand. I would not want someone to do something without the meaning behind it. So if people don’t want to partake in covering of their heads b/c they don’t understand then I think it would be worse to force them! It would have no meaning behind it for them. Everyone has gifts, everyone has a diff personality and ability to worship Christ.

PS: Hats are just fine! Again people have a choice

 

[Carolinagirl411]

I have to ask the same thing. I cannot imagine that happening although I have seen women get a defensive look on their faces when they donned their head coverings as if they were expecting problems.

I think it might be a psychological martyrdom of sorts.

I place the mantilla on my head while in my car…from that point on it serves as a blinder to anyone or anything outside of Christ. I don’t notice or care if anyone is looking at me with disdain or whatever, nor do I imagine anyone to do so. This is my personal devotion.

Psychological martyrdom my foot. Cheer up!

 

[piouswoman]

Nothing about being “politically correct” – you are simply wrong.

In no way does the Church mandate or encourage women to wear head coverings to Mass. At the same time it does not dissuade women from covering their heads at Mass either.

As others have said it’s up to the individual and they should neither be forced to or kept from covering their heads as the Church is neutral on the Matter.

One practice is not “better” or certainly not more pious than the other.

You don’t seem to have any respect for tradition. Cultural tradition is very important and it has ALWAYS been the tradition of the Church throughout the ages, for women to cover their heads in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. It wasn’t until the Vatican Council II and the modernist infiltration that this tradition was cast aside by many women who were fueled by the dawn of the space age, feminism and the sexual revolution. There have been many links provided on veiling and the reasons for it, so if you haven’t read them by now, you are truly ignorant* by choice*.

You might keep in mind that it is “Traditionally Protestant” for Protestant denominations to reject Tradition. And that includes cultural traditions.

 

[beckers]

I have to ask the same thing. I cannot imagine that happening although I have seen women get a defensive look on their faces when they donned their head coverings as if they were expecting problems.

I think it might be a psychological martyrdom of sorts.

i think it depends on the area and your personal experience. I have never had anyone approach me about my head covering. But on the other hand I have had a girlfriend who was confronted at mass about her veil. The older women yelled at her and removed my friends veil from her head. So for my friend maybe she does see it as battle sometimes because she has had a rough confrontation and is having to fight for her right to wear what she deems is apporiate. I on the otherhand have not run into problems so i don’t see it as a battle.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I have had a girlfriend who was confronted at mass about her veil. The older women yelled at her and removed my friends veil from her head. So for my friend maybe she does see it as battle sometimes because she has had a rough confrontation and is having to fight for her right to wear what she deems is apporiate. I on the otherhand have not run into problems so i don’t see it as a battle.

OK OK, I will fess up my error. I thought this was a non-issue, that is until I saw this post. Most clearly, this action of physically removing the veil was wrong. In my wildest dreams, I would not have believed that people felt this strongly about this issue. In this instance, perhaps something needs to be said to the pastor. This almost sounds like childlike tattling, but I truly would not know how else to respond to this. Either that or talk to the person who did this. Maybe that would help. I certainly would not do it confrontationally, but rather in an inquiring manner as to why?
Prayers & blessings, especially to both of yous. If you approach it this way, I certainly would like to know the outcome.
Deacon Ed B