Is There any Difference between Supporting Woman Privacy Right & Supporting Abortion?

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God’s Law supersedes Man’s arbitrary laws…
God’s Law does not overturn the Supreme Court. The original poster (and I) was trying to look at abortion from a practical view. I am so against abortion, and seeing it reduced, saving children, that I try hard to get people beyond such trite one liners. To use the example above of slavery, we will gain more by thinking like those who shaped the moral view of slavery, Garrison, Stowe, Douglas, etc., and less like John Brown. If we are to do more than fight a civil war, which is the only way to end abortion when the country is 50/50, then we must have a moral awakening, both to the immorality that is abortion, and the sexual immorality that has made abortion acceptable.
 
Catholicism is not like Democracy
The immorality of abortion is not the subject here. That is a given. Yet we do live in the United States in 2019. So, how do those who live here stop abortion. Electing Republicans, even when in control of everything, hasn’t been very effective. Electing Democrats, who try and provide programs for the pregnant, hasn’t been very effective. Abortion has declined some, but still remains our national shame.
 
I"m sorry, I’m really not following. Let me see if I understand;

A woman is being robbed, and no one believes her, and they deny her a tazer or any sort of weapon for self defense.

Is that a comparison to a woman being pregnant? That the child is taking nutrients or something from the mother?

I apologize, I’m just confused by the story.

For what it’s worth, I have no problem with people owning guns or tazers. My Aunt has a pistol she uses as she runs her own store. I don’t think it’s a good idea for a nation to disarm it’s citizens.

As for abortion, I still don’t see outlawing abortion as an attack on a woman’s right to privacy. I do respect a woman’s right to privacy. But I see the child’s right to life as superseding the woman’s right to privacy.
 
Is that a comparison to a woman being pregnant?
Nope. That’s a real life experience of a real member of this catholic forum.
I don’t think it’s a good idea for a nation to disarm it’s citizens.
As for abortion, I still don’t see outlawing abortion as an attack on a woman’s right to privacy. I do respect a woman’s right to privacy. But I see the child’s right to life as superseding the woman’s right to privacy.
Perhaps the tazer gun ban argument is also based on security for everybody. You can always call the police if anything, why would you need a tazer gun for? Thoughts?
 
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I believe Pope Paul VI said the contraceptive culture was the root cause. Not in those words but that is what he meant.
Contraception was an invention (condom) at the time, I believe.

The church should have allowed it within marriage esp. after the couple have children, contraseptive should be allowed within marriage.

Just like any other means, immoral use of it (condom for unlawful sex) is not allowed. Simple moral teaching would have been easier to grasp and followed.
 
The immorality of abortion is not the subject here. That is a given.
Yes.

Question is how to stop it while the source of immoral behavior continue and even somewhat celebrated? I am talking about the tolerance or even pressure to have sex outside marriage.

When we let water flow from the other side, and then blame the women for abortion while wondering why it doesn’t stop abortion. It makes it becomes crucial not to illegalize it, because of the heavy flow coming in cannot be stopped.

The pressure of the water (promiscuous culture) begins to leak to other parts of the world.
 
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pnewton:
The immorality of abortion is not the subject here. That is a given.
Yes.

Question is how to stop it while the source of immoral behavior continue and even somewhat celebrated? I am talking about the tolerance or even pressure to have sex outside marriage.

When we let water flow from the other side, and then blame the women for abortion while wondering why it doesn’t stop abortion
The moral evaluation of abortion is not sourced in assigning blame.

The moral evaluation of abortion begins with recognizing the objective good at hand: the existence and flourishing of human life. Moral evaluation always has some good as it’s end.
The prohibition against taking human life is not a negative prohibition for it’s own sake. Prohibitions direct us to a good end.
 
The moral evaluation of abortion begins with recognizing the objective good at hand: the existence and flourishing of human life. Moral evaluation always has some good as it’s end.
Example, a fascinating teaching of socialism:

All people should work for their contribution, each receive equal pay. Nobody is richer/ poorer than anybody else. Equality for everybody.

Doesn’t it sound ideal as a teaching/ philosophy? It sounds so moral. Why would you entitled to a better pay if you are smarter, or prettier? Isn’t it rather unjust to discriminate?

In the end, whether some doctrine teaches honesty and being truthful, time will tell.
 
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Example, a fascinating teaching of socialism:

All people should work for their contribution, each receive equal pay. Nobody is richer/ poorer than anybody else. Equality for everybody.

Doesn’t it sound ideal as a teaching/ philosophy? It sounds so moral. Why would you entitled to a better pay if you are smarter, or prettier? Isn’t it rather unjust to discriminate?

In the end, whether some doctrine teaches honesty and being truthful, time will tell.
You replied that to me. Not sure what point you are making. sorry.
 
Those objective good you mention, it should be tested over time.

Forcing women to carry term with no cultural changes and porn ban, would be similar to the failed socialism ideal theories.
 
And I was pointing out that the moral evaluation does not hinge on prohibitions but on the objective good as it’s end. I was responding to this from you:
Question is how to stop it while the source of immoral behavior continue and even somewhat celebrated? I am talking about the tolerance or even pressure to have sex outside marriage.

When we let water flow from the other side, and then blame the women for abortion while wondering why it doesn’t stop abortion
We don’t stop abortion by blaming women for it. We stop it by recognizing that a human being exists and that human being is the focus of moral evaluation.
 
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@francisca.chapter3
The issue was the birth control pill which many believe at the time was natural. That proved to be false and most BC pills now cause an abortion instead of preventing conception. You are entitled to your own opinion. Pope Paul foretold that once you separate sex and conception abortion, sex outside of marriage and homosexual sex would prosper. He was right!
 
In that case I feel very badly for that person. I do not recognize the right of a government to completely disarm someone without due process, and it sounds like they were put in a lousy position.

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francisca.chapter3
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Jimbo:
Is that a comparison to a woman being pregnant?
Nope. That’s a real life experience of a real member of this catholic forum.
 
First, I would say that the right to privacy is not a right guaranteed in the Constitution but was read into the Constitution for the sole and express purpose of providing a legal justification for precluding the state from regulating birth control in Griswold vs. Connecticut. This supposed right was then extended to abortion during Roe V. Wade. The strange thing about Griswold, is that the justices could actually have accomplished what they wanted by invoking the 9th and 10th Amendments, which actually are enumerated rights. But alas, we have not yet had a chance to overturn this flawed legal argument.

That being said, there are no rights guaranteed in the Constitution that are absolute. So for example, we have the freedom of speech; however, one may not invoke the freedom of speech in order to trample another person’s rights by calling for imminent violence upon them. We have the right to be secure in our person and property from unlawful search and seizure by the government, unless probable cause can be established. You get my point. What is interesting is that fundamental natural rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion are curtailed under our current views of the Constitution, as are our “privacy rights” with regard to search and seizure, but the one inalienable right that cannot be breached is the woman’s right to privacy rights in the case of medical care? This makes absolutely no sense, particularly where that right is being used as the nexus to deny the fundamental right of life for another individual, the child. We literally do not make this kind of argument for any other right, which shows you how absurdly illogical the pro-choice position is.

That being said, I think we are all on the same team in saying that society should discourage irresponsible practices which lead to unwanted pregnancy such as the denigration of traditional marriage, encouragement of sex outside of marriage, etc.

Where you go off the rails (other than in your premise that one must be pro-choice to value women) is in saying that curtailing the “right to privacy” so that it does not infringe on the right of a defenseless child is tantamount to removing their privacy rights or enslaving of women. That is absurd on its face. Saving the life of a child by drawing a clear distinction between where the woman’s freedom ends and where the freedom of the child begins is not enslavement anymore than it is not enslavement to say that men have no right to put their hands on a woman in the workplace. The state does have a legitimate role in preventing the murder of innocents and that trumps my personal convenience.
 
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Saving the life of a child by drawing a clear distinction between where the woman’s freedom ends and where the freedom of the child begins is not enslavement anymore than it is not enslavement to say that men have no right to put their hands on a woman in the workplace
As a system, porn is a billion dollar business. Not to mention the trickelling effect of it to real life prostitution and woman victimization. Whatever rule at the workplace about men have no right to put their hands on woman, it continues to put sexual pressure on woman.

I hope you understand the stresssed word business. It is not merely “pervert joe has a bad habit”. It is a big big business of human sexuality exploitation
That being said, there are no rights guaranteed in the Constitution that are absolute.
You are absolutely right. Woman privacy right is not an absolute right. It is defined as limited to second trimester of pregnancy. abortion is forbidden for the last trimester of pregnancy to protect viable fetus right to life.

So the current law-- if practiced— has protected the viable fetus right.
 
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What is interesting is that fundamental natural rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion are curtailed under our current views of the Constitution, as are our “privacy rights” with regard to search and seizure, but the one inalienable right that cannot be breached is the woman’s right to privacy rights in the case of medical care? This makes absolutely no sense,
Supposedly my neighbour gossips about me being pregnant. This is only example 😄 After the whole village talk about my pregnancy, finally somebody make police report about me going for illegal abotion. When police come at my door, I say “I have never been pregnant. It was only gossips”. Question, who do police should believe: my neighbours or I? How to prove it?
 
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s a system, porn is a billion dollar business . Not to mention the trickelling effect of it to real life prostitution and woman victimization. Whatever rule at the workplace about men have no right to put their hands on woman, it continues to put sexual pressure on woman.

I hope you understand the stresssed word business . It is not merely “pervert joe has a bad habit”. It is a big big business of human sexuality exploitation
While I agree with you that porn is an issue that contributes to the formation of values that are antithetical to preventing abortion, and that we as a society need to recognize the moral ill that is serves, this is not an excuse to support the murder of children for personal convenience.
You are absolutely right. Woman privacy right is not an absolute right. It is defined as limited to second trimester of pregnancy. abortion is forbidden for the last trimester of pregnancy to protect viable fetus right to life.

So the current law-- if practiced— has protected the viable fetus right.
You are incorrect. While Roe V. Wade established a three tiered system where in the government has increased license for regulation, this legal precedent was supplanted by continued case law in the 90s and is no longer the law of the land. Unfettered access to abortion up to and including 40 weeks is the law of the land. There are literally no legal protections at any point during pregnancy for the child.
 
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