J
John_W
Guest
Thanks for everyone’s responses. I feel better grounded in my beliefs from your support. John
- Status
A
AndyF
Guest
John W.:
Continued conscious suffering is the fate of the lost. And reason demands such a fate. When a man sins gravely, he chooses between God and a thing forbidden by God. He cannot have both, and he prefers to renounce God rather the created good. If he dies without repentence his will is still alienated from God. He would do the same thing again if he got the chance. And as long as these dispositions last, he must do without God, and happiness. These dispositions lasting forever once this probationary life is over, so will the penalty.
Other references: Mk 9,29 Jn 5,28 Mk 9,44 Matt 25,41 Mk 9,43
Matt 13,49
Miracle of Fatima
Andy
Thanks to Radio Replies Vol 1, #922 (Fr. Rumble and Mccarty)
Continued conscious suffering is the fate of the lost. And reason demands such a fate. When a man sins gravely, he chooses between God and a thing forbidden by God. He cannot have both, and he prefers to renounce God rather the created good. If he dies without repentence his will is still alienated from God. He would do the same thing again if he got the chance. And as long as these dispositions last, he must do without God, and happiness. These dispositions lasting forever once this probationary life is over, so will the penalty.
Other references: Mk 9,29 Jn 5,28 Mk 9,44 Matt 25,41 Mk 9,43
Matt 13,49
Miracle of Fatima
Andy
C
clmowry
Guest
MT25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
MT25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mk 3:29 “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"
2 Thess 1:9 “These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power”
Heb 6:2 “of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Jude 7 “just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”
Rev 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Rev 20:20 “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Why mention the place and specify that it’s eternal if no one goes there?
Chuck
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
once again, we’re failing to make a distinction between hell and the lake of fire. hell (hades) is not eternal. it, along with satan and his followers and ‘anyone whose name is not written in the book of life’ will be cast into the lake of fire. hell will be cast into the lake of fire. it isn’t eternal.
so.
those who are in hell (hades is another word for this place) may be redeemed before they’re cast into the lake of fire.
it was recently posted: ‘You are right. The trial is over when you die. You had your opportunity to choose heaven or hell while living. Your life is the decision time.’
this isn’t taught by the Bible or the church, and is actually inconsistent with what the BIble DOES teach. in an odd little verse in the epistles, we are told that Jesus ‘preached the gospel to those in chains, who rebelled long ago in the times of noah and the flood’.
this, to me, sounds a heck of a lot like an after death second chance. whether or not we will get one, we who have lived ‘this side of the cross’ is, of course, debatable. but i repeat that the Bible nor the church teach that we won’t have a possible ‘second chance’.
not reincarnation, mind you. the Bible and the church are clear on that. but the mercy and grace of God might be extended (i hope, i pray) to those who lived in times, or in families, or in places, where they were not able to respond to the grace offered in this lifetime - and so be saved from their sins.
i don’t even KNOW these people, and i hope and pray for their salvation. i can only imagine that our Father, who created, knows, loves every one of them, must desire their salvation so much more than i, that i cannot comprehend it.
so.
those who are in hell (hades is another word for this place) may be redeemed before they’re cast into the lake of fire.
it was recently posted: ‘You are right. The trial is over when you die. You had your opportunity to choose heaven or hell while living. Your life is the decision time.’
this isn’t taught by the Bible or the church, and is actually inconsistent with what the BIble DOES teach. in an odd little verse in the epistles, we are told that Jesus ‘preached the gospel to those in chains, who rebelled long ago in the times of noah and the flood’.
this, to me, sounds a heck of a lot like an after death second chance. whether or not we will get one, we who have lived ‘this side of the cross’ is, of course, debatable. but i repeat that the Bible nor the church teach that we won’t have a possible ‘second chance’.
not reincarnation, mind you. the Bible and the church are clear on that. but the mercy and grace of God might be extended (i hope, i pray) to those who lived in times, or in families, or in places, where they were not able to respond to the grace offered in this lifetime - and so be saved from their sins.
i don’t even KNOW these people, and i hope and pray for their salvation. i can only imagine that our Father, who created, knows, loves every one of them, must desire their salvation so much more than i, that i cannot comprehend it.
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
incidentally, to answer clmowry’s (probably rhetorical) question -
hell is a real place. the lake of fire is real. it awaits anyone who is not ultimately saved. the question is not whether or not hell exists. it does.
anyone who is not redeemed from their sins will spend eternity separated from God.
the question is, will any people go there?
i hope not.
hell is a real place. the lake of fire is real. it awaits anyone who is not ultimately saved. the question is not whether or not hell exists. it does.
anyone who is not redeemed from their sins will spend eternity separated from God.
the question is, will any people go there?
i hope not.
E
Exporter
Guest
I am addressing the first question about the lady at RCIA who said there are no people in hell.
That lady doesn’t believe the Scriptures nor the Holy Catholic Church. Why would such a neophyte be teaching RCIA? Watch out for her, she may be teaching other herecies.
That lady doesn’t believe the Scriptures nor the Holy Catholic Church. Why would such a neophyte be teaching RCIA? Watch out for her, she may be teaching other herecies.
R
RobedWithLight
Guest
John W.:
Besides God will not be truly just to the righteous if he admits the evil to heaven.
Gerry
That is the doctrine of Apocatastasis,the belief that everyone will be eventually saved. It is not Church teaching however.Last night at RCIA one of the TEAM leaders stated that she didn’t believe anyone was in Hell because God is merciful. I stated that she sure is an optimist.What is the teaching of the Church on this? Thanks
Besides God will not be truly just to the righteous if he admits the evil to heaven.
Gerry
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jeffreedy789
Guest
fortunately, though, He WILL admit the redeemed. otherwise none of us could come in. we are all evil, we are all deserving of hell.
you said: ‘it is not church teaching’. neither is it church teaching that there will definitely be people IN hell. the church teaching is: we don’t know.
it was posted: ‘Why would such a neophyte be teaching RCIA? Watch out for her, she may be teaching other herecies.’
be careful to remember charity. the reason we have many ‘neophytes’ teaching ‘heresies’ is because we have human beings volunteering their time and talents to try to benefit the kingdom of God - which almost always leads to difficulties. we humans are a haphazard lot.
you said: ‘it is not church teaching’. neither is it church teaching that there will definitely be people IN hell. the church teaching is: we don’t know.
it was posted: ‘Why would such a neophyte be teaching RCIA? Watch out for her, she may be teaching other herecies.’
be careful to remember charity. the reason we have many ‘neophytes’ teaching ‘heresies’ is because we have human beings volunteering their time and talents to try to benefit the kingdom of God - which almost always leads to difficulties. we humans are a haphazard lot.
M
MrS
Guest
Do you even read your own posts???
Your bio says you like to read… start with the Catechism, (the section on Hell, and eternal damnation), then perhaps some Catholic commentary on the Gospels.
The Church (vonBalthasar is not the Church - he posed the possibility that hell could be empty, thereby losing his credibility as a theologian) has always taught that there is a place of eternal damnation. You can call it by any name you choose, but most refer to it as hell. For you to teach others something false is sinful. I hope you are not responsible for another to pursue a sinful life “knowing” that you told them no one is in hell.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
John W.:
Who are you going to believe? Satan or Jesus?
NAB GENESIS 3:1
Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, “Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?” The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’” But the serpent said to the woman: "You certainly will not die!.."
NAB MATTHEW 25:41 (Jesus is speaking)
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
NAB REVELATION 22:12
“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”
Please visit
WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All
for biblical verses of Jesus warning us of eternal damnation.
The way people go to heaven is through the mercy of Christ’s blood; the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God. This is why Jesus warns us to obey God. This is why Satan, who wants subjects in hell, tells us not to worry about obeying God.
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
Hello John,Last night at RCIA one of the TEAM leaders stated that she didn’t believe anyone was in Hell because God is merciful. I stated that she sure is an optimist.
Who are you going to believe? Satan or Jesus?
NAB GENESIS 3:1
Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, “Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?” The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’” But the serpent said to the woman: "You certainly will not die!.."
NAB MATTHEW 25:41 (Jesus is speaking)
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
NAB REVELATION 22:12
“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”
Please visit
WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All
for biblical verses of Jesus warning us of eternal damnation.
The way people go to heaven is through the mercy of Christ’s blood; the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God. This is why Jesus warns us to obey God. This is why Satan, who wants subjects in hell, tells us not to worry about obeying God.
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
M
MrS
Guest
Yep, Mary too.fortunately, though, He WILL admit the redeemed. otherwise none of us could come in. we are all evil, we are all deserving of hell.
you said: ‘it is not church teaching’. neither is it church teaching that there will definitely be people IN hell. the church teaching is: we don’t know.
it was posted: ‘Why would such a neophyte be teaching RCIA? Watch out for her, she may be teaching other herecies.’
be careful to remember charity. the reason we have many ‘neophytes’ teaching ‘heresies’ is because we have human beings volunteering their time and talents to try to benefit the kingdom of God - which almost always leads to difficulties. we humans are a haphazard lot.
Please quote the Church teaching that says we don’t know if anyone will be in hell.
Check post #17 for the Catechism quote. I guess you imply that God only means to “scare the hell out of us” huh? He is not serious about anything eternal except the beatific vision for all.
I guess that there will not be a second judgment, a general judgement. What is the point… if we all go to heaven anyway?
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
mr s - i’ve been reading your posts for a few months now. i haven’t said anything, because as you yourself say in your signature, you’re an ‘apologist in training’.
one of the primary things to remember in life, let alone in apologetics, is love. every time i read your posts, whether i’m involved in the discussion or not, i feel alot of resentment and lack of charity.
this is a case in point. it’s argumentative to post ‘do you even read your own posts???’
i’ll clarify the problem you apparently have in my post - anyone who is not redeemed will be cast into the lake of fire. therefore (logically) if no one goes to ‘hell’ (the lake of fire), then everyone is redeemed.
i DO read. all of the time. i’ve read the catechism. i’ve read catholic commentary on the Bible. i have a degree in theology.
you seem to have categorical proof that the church teaches that there WILL BE people in hell, for eternity. if this is so, please provide the proof.
you posted: ‘The Church has [edit] always taught that there is a place of eternal damnation.’ and i have said in almost every post in this thread that there IS such a place as hell. the scripture, the church, all are clear that hell exists. that is not in question.
and please don’t make these discussions personal - condemning my actions as sinful and causing others to stray from the faith and go to hell - not charitable. let’s be kind to one another.
one of the primary things to remember in life, let alone in apologetics, is love. every time i read your posts, whether i’m involved in the discussion or not, i feel alot of resentment and lack of charity.
this is a case in point. it’s argumentative to post ‘do you even read your own posts???’
i’ll clarify the problem you apparently have in my post - anyone who is not redeemed will be cast into the lake of fire. therefore (logically) if no one goes to ‘hell’ (the lake of fire), then everyone is redeemed.
i DO read. all of the time. i’ve read the catechism. i’ve read catholic commentary on the Bible. i have a degree in theology.
you seem to have categorical proof that the church teaches that there WILL BE people in hell, for eternity. if this is so, please provide the proof.
you posted: ‘The Church has [edit] always taught that there is a place of eternal damnation.’ and i have said in almost every post in this thread that there IS such a place as hell. the scripture, the church, all are clear that hell exists. that is not in question.
and please don’t make these discussions personal - condemning my actions as sinful and causing others to stray from the faith and go to hell - not charitable. let’s be kind to one another.
M
MrS
Guest
Your comments on post 30 - Please!
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
anyone not redeemed - not made holy, not made into a saint, will be ‘outside’, condemned to eternal punishment. i’ve said this in every post. unless a person is redeemed, they will not go to heaven, but will receive eternal punishment.
you cannot disobey God and still have eternal life. this is what the serpent taught in the garden. ‘you don’t have to do what He says. He’s just trying to take away your fun!’
we DO have to do what He says. we DO have to be redeemed. if we’re not, we will receive eternal punishment.
the only hope that ANYONE (especially me) will avoid going to hell is through Christ’s salvation. we ALL deserve hell. He saves us.
my hope, my prayer, is that He saves us all. He is willing that none should perish. i hope and pray that His willingness be manifest.
you cannot disobey God and still have eternal life. this is what the serpent taught in the garden. ‘you don’t have to do what He says. He’s just trying to take away your fun!’
we DO have to do what He says. we DO have to be redeemed. if we’re not, we will receive eternal punishment.
the only hope that ANYONE (especially me) will avoid going to hell is through Christ’s salvation. we ALL deserve hell. He saves us.
my hope, my prayer, is that He saves us all. He is willing that none should perish. i hope and pray that His willingness be manifest.
M
MrS
Guest
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
mr s - i’ve been reading your posts for a few months now. i haven’t said anything, because as you yourself say in your signature, you’re an ‘apologist in training’.
and this means: ???
this means what i say in the next paragraph.
one of the primary things to remember in life, let alone in apologetics, is love. every time i read your posts, whether i’m involved in the discussion or not,** i feel alot of resentment and lack of charity. **
do you feel any presence of truth?
often, yes. however, our primary commandment is to love God and one another, not to be right about everything. even when we ARE right, we can drive people away from it by being uncharitable in our presentation of that truth.
this is a case in point. it’s argumentative to post ‘do you even read your own posts???’
and the reason I posted that is because your post contradicted itself,
as i’ve shown, it didn’t. but my point is that the way in which you asked is argumentative. you could have said ‘you posted this: and this: do you see that they contradict?’ rather than the inflammatory ‘do you even read your own posts???’
i’ll clarify the problem you apparently have in my post - anyone who is not redeemed will be cast into the lake of fire. therefore (logically) if no one goes to ‘hell’ (the lake of fire), then everyone is redeemed.
i DO read. all of the time. i’ve read the catechism. i’ve read catholic commentary on the Bible. i have a degree in theology.
I don’t. Is it a criteria for making a post true or not?
it isn’t. i’m not addressing the truth of your posts. i’m addressing your implication that i don’t know what i’m talking about, and should ‘read more on the subject’ before posting.
you seem to have categorical proof that the church teaches that there WILL BE people in hell, for eternity. if this is so, please provide the proof.
See post #30 for a start.
i’ve addressed that.
you posted: ‘The Church has [edit] always taught that there is a place of eternal damnation.’ and i have said in almost every post in this thread that there IS such a place as hell. the scripture, the church, all are clear that hell exists. that is not in question.
and please don’t make these discussions personal - condemning my actions as sinful and causing others to stray from the faith and go to hell - not charitable. let’s be kind to one another.
Personal would be condemning you. Your actions are in error, and cannot be condoned. It would be uncharitable to allow you so say or imply that hell will be empty. Do you have any idea how many non-Catholics, or confused Catholics will view your posts and then respond in their own lives accordingly?
**i hope alot will. i hope that people will want, hope, and pray for the salvation of everyone, and not just for their little elite groups. i hope that people will adopt the same attitude that we see in our heavenly father - a willingness for all to be saved - a refusal to give up on anyone. **
i know that without it, i would surely be lost.
**(just for everyone’s info - i’m about to leave to go to work. i’ll be back to reply in a little while. i’m not walking away for whatever reason.) **
and this means: ???
this means what i say in the next paragraph.
one of the primary things to remember in life, let alone in apologetics, is love. every time i read your posts, whether i’m involved in the discussion or not,** i feel alot of resentment and lack of charity. **
do you feel any presence of truth?
often, yes. however, our primary commandment is to love God and one another, not to be right about everything. even when we ARE right, we can drive people away from it by being uncharitable in our presentation of that truth.
this is a case in point. it’s argumentative to post ‘do you even read your own posts???’
and the reason I posted that is because your post contradicted itself,
as i’ve shown, it didn’t. but my point is that the way in which you asked is argumentative. you could have said ‘you posted this: and this: do you see that they contradict?’ rather than the inflammatory ‘do you even read your own posts???’
i’ll clarify the problem you apparently have in my post - anyone who is not redeemed will be cast into the lake of fire. therefore (logically) if no one goes to ‘hell’ (the lake of fire), then everyone is redeemed.
i DO read. all of the time. i’ve read the catechism. i’ve read catholic commentary on the Bible. i have a degree in theology.
I don’t. Is it a criteria for making a post true or not?
it isn’t. i’m not addressing the truth of your posts. i’m addressing your implication that i don’t know what i’m talking about, and should ‘read more on the subject’ before posting.
you seem to have categorical proof that the church teaches that there WILL BE people in hell, for eternity. if this is so, please provide the proof.
See post #30 for a start.
i’ve addressed that.
you posted: ‘The Church has [edit] always taught that there is a place of eternal damnation.’ and i have said in almost every post in this thread that there IS such a place as hell. the scripture, the church, all are clear that hell exists. that is not in question.
and please don’t make these discussions personal - condemning my actions as sinful and causing others to stray from the faith and go to hell - not charitable. let’s be kind to one another.
Personal would be condemning you. Your actions are in error, and cannot be condoned. It would be uncharitable to allow you so say or imply that hell will be empty. Do you have any idea how many non-Catholics, or confused Catholics will view your posts and then respond in their own lives accordingly?
**i hope alot will. i hope that people will want, hope, and pray for the salvation of everyone, and not just for their little elite groups. i hope that people will adopt the same attitude that we see in our heavenly father - a willingness for all to be saved - a refusal to give up on anyone. **
i know that without it, i would surely be lost.
**(just for everyone’s info - i’m about to leave to go to work. i’ll be back to reply in a little while. i’m not walking away for whatever reason.)
**
M
MrS
Guest
There is a facinating audio of a speech given by Fr. Fessio in Canada a few years back. He was discussing the abuses found in the “new” language of the Mass since Vatican II.
Among others, he discussed the words of consecration “for all” verses the “for many”. Most priests will tell you if you ask, that they mean the same thing because they can be translated either way. Fr. Fessio agreed, to a point. But he went on to say that the original translation was correct theology in that it taught that God’s wishes salvation for all, and makes it available for all… and the “new” translation is wrong because “all” will not be saved. There will be those who refuse God’s gift.
Thankfully, the new missal is addressing these errors that have been taught over the past decades, causing many to believe, and teach that salvation IS for all, instead of salvation is wished for all, but in the end IS only for many.
Even Paul asked others to pray that he not lose his salvation and fall away.
This whole idea of “perhaps…no one is in hell” is not Church teaching, is not in the Gospels, is cruel to those who don’t know that they need to fear(love) their God.
I am only an apologist… always in training and knowing I will never live long enough to know all the Church knows. But I know there is sin, there are sinners, and at the end of time Purgatory will be empty… heaven and hell will be occupied. That is why I am here… God is not finished with me yet. But with some, he is finished… and they are in hell.
Among others, he discussed the words of consecration “for all” verses the “for many”. Most priests will tell you if you ask, that they mean the same thing because they can be translated either way. Fr. Fessio agreed, to a point. But he went on to say that the original translation was correct theology in that it taught that God’s wishes salvation for all, and makes it available for all… and the “new” translation is wrong because “all” will not be saved. There will be those who refuse God’s gift.
Thankfully, the new missal is addressing these errors that have been taught over the past decades, causing many to believe, and teach that salvation IS for all, instead of salvation is wished for all, but in the end IS only for many.
Even Paul asked others to pray that he not lose his salvation and fall away.
This whole idea of “perhaps…no one is in hell” is not Church teaching, is not in the Gospels, is cruel to those who don’t know that they need to fear(love) their God.
I am only an apologist… always in training and knowing I will never live long enough to know all the Church knows. But I know there is sin, there are sinners, and at the end of time Purgatory will be empty… heaven and hell will be occupied. That is why I am here… God is not finished with me yet. But with some, he is finished… and they are in hell.
M
MrS
Guest
Jeff.
I went to your web site out of curiosity. And I have to ask…
1st: is your theology degree from East Texas Baptist University? It has a place of prominence on page three.
2nd: what might be your brother’s take on hell? Not his personal opinion, but what the Jesuits are teaching him. I would hope it agrees with what Fr Fessio is teaching.
I went to your web site out of curiosity. And I have to ask…
1st: is your theology degree from East Texas Baptist University? It has a place of prominence on page three.
2nd: what might be your brother’s take on hell? Not his personal opinion, but what the Jesuits are teaching him. I would hope it agrees with what Fr Fessio is teaching.
A
amarischuk
Guest
Mrs. S, please show me where the CCC states that anyone is in hell (not that hell exists there is a not so subtle difference):
[1035](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1035.htm’)
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. [1036](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1036.htm’) The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” …[1037](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1037.htm’) God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#IV
But then again, the evolution of the doctrine of Hell is such that most biblical scholars view both heaven and hell as pagan interpolations in the Bible. It is interesting to note that the Sadducees, who were considered orthodox Jews at the time of Christ, believed in neither heaven, nor hell, nor the immortality of the soul or eevn the resurrection of the dead. But then again, the character Satan is also of pagan origins and biblical scholars agree that the serpant in the garden or Satan in the book of Job has nothing to do with the modern concept of the devil.
But just for fun, look at the Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on Hell (oh and please note the discussion of limbo…whatever happened to THAT dogma?):
lol, I wonder if the geologists have noted anything interesting happening down there.
newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm
And Fatima is private revelation. Even a Catholic is under no pressure to accept the horrific thought that people are falling into hell like snowflakes (and wasn’t one of the sheperd girls told that she would spend the rest of time in purgatory before the final judgement…80 years ago, makes you wonder what kind of trouble a 10 year old can get into).
Adam
R
RobedWithLight
Guest
There will be people who will definitely be in hell. What the Church teaches, I believe, is that we don’t know who is definitely going to hell. There is a wide difference between the two, jeff.fortunately, though, He WILL admit the redeemed. otherwise none of us could come in. we are all evil, we are all deserving of hell.
you said: ‘it is not church teaching’. neither is it church teaching that there will definitely be people IN hell. the church teaching is: we don’t know.
Scripture definitely makes it clear that the chaff will be separated from the grain, the sheep from the goats. As Jesus Himself says, “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven”. Where do you think the “goats” will go? Where do you think those **to **whom Christ says “I never knew you!” would go? Otherwise, why would Revelation even talk about a “lake” of fire that burns forever.
Gerry
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