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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
What passage of the Bible is that, SFO?
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jemfinch
Guest
Correction: it is enough scriptural support for saying that it was permissible to divorce.
Anyway, shouldn’t we be talking about divorce and remarriage? The Catholic Church permits divorce, just not remarriage.
Jeremy
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Valke2
Guest
That was my point. Divorce is not universally denied in the Christian Bible. (Is this only in the “Catholic” bible? I thought all christian denominations referred to the same text when discussing the gospels).
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Valke2
Guest
you me prohibits?
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
The Christians fight about the proper translation. This issue and verse is a divider in the Christians. The Protestants say the original scripture allows divorce for adultery. The Catholics say no, and this is one of the bases for our annulment process. Also the Pauline privilege allows divorce and was written after Jesus’ death. The Pauline privilege frees a spouse when the other spouse refuses Christianity
*They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?” He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” -NAB (Catholic Bible)
They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”( New King James)*
The Pauline Privilege
Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire. To the married, however, I give this instruction (not I, but the Lord): 7 a wife should not separate from her husband --and if she does separate she must either remain single or become reconciled to her husband–and a husband should not divorce his wife. To the rest 8 I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. If the unbeliever separates, 9 however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?(NAB)
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jemfinch
Guest
The divorce that Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 19 was the breaking of an engagement: something the Jews would call divorce, but we would not. That’s why He doesn’t use the word for “adultery” (moicheia) but the word for “fornication” (porneias).
I’m not sure what you meant to write, but if you meant to say, “you mean prohibits,” the answer is no. The Catholic Church permits civil divorce, for instance, if that’s what’s necessary for the equitable distribution of goods. What it does not permit, what it prohibits is remarriage after a civil divorce pertaining to a valid marriage. Civil divorce (the only kind the Church permits) does not dissolve a valid marriage.
Jeremy
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Valke2
Guest
Thanks for that explanation Texas. I didn’t know that.
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Valke2
Guest
I misread your original post. I didn’tknow the Catholic Church permitted divorce but prohibited remarriage.
Regarding your first paragraph, I understand that translations will differ. I was quoting from called it marital unfaithfullness.
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Steel_Arrow
Guest
lIn Matthew 19:3, the Pharisees came to Jesus testing Him with this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason? Jesus used this opportunity to teach a lesson. In verse 4 he reminded them that God made them male and female from the very beginning. In verse 5, He explains that for this reason a man will leave his mother and father and be joined with his wife and they shall become one flesh. In verse 6, now that they are one flesh “What God has joined together, let not man separate.”
In order to still try and trip Jesus up, the Pharisees asked why Moses allowed divorce by giving a certificate of divorce to the wife and “put her away”.
This is the one and only exception in permitting divorce. In verse 9, Jesus states, “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, EXCEPT FOR SEXUAL IMMORALITY, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
As you can see, there is an instance where divorce is allowed.
In order to still try and trip Jesus up, the Pharisees asked why Moses allowed divorce by giving a certificate of divorce to the wife and “put her away”.
This is the one and only exception in permitting divorce. In verse 9, Jesus states, “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, EXCEPT FOR SEXUAL IMMORALITY, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
As you can see, there is an instance where divorce is allowed.
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FCEGM
Guest
One of the earliest posts in the thread (and others following) already addressed this and what is meant by porneialIn Matthew 19:3, the Pharisees came to Jesus testing Him with this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason? Jesus used this opportunity to teach a lesson. In verse 4 he reminded them that God made them male and female from the very beginning. In verse 5, He explains that for this reason a man will leave his mother and father and be joined with his wife and they shall become one flesh. In verse 6, now that they are one flesh “What God has joined together, let not man separate.”
In order to still try and trip Jesus up, the Pharisees asked why Moses allowed divorce by giving a certificate of divorce to the wife and “put her away”.
This is the one and only exception in permitting divorce. In verse 9, Jesus states, “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, EXCEPT FOR SEXUAL IMMORALITY, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
As you can see, there is an instance where divorce is allowed.
scripturecatholic.com/divorce_remarriage.html
So, the Lord here is absolutely not giving an exception to His forbidding divorce. He is speaking here of those who have engaged in an already illicit (both morally and legally) “marriage.” Therefore, for such couples to “divorce” is allowed since they are not actually married in the first place.
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louisquinze
Guest
Jesus is quoted in the New Testament as saying that divorce was given in the Old Testament for ‘hardness of heart’. I think this means the inability to see the other person’s ( wife’s in all probability since he was apparently talking to men at the time) point of view and insisting on their own way.Women were by and large considered chattels at this time - Jesus cuts across that.
Poor communication, lack of love (agape, not the feely stuff). With the new dispensation the command to love is fundamental and huge - underscored in the N T aplenty, particularly to love your neighbour as oneself - and your spouse is your neighbour.
Poor communication, lack of love (agape, not the feely stuff). With the new dispensation the command to love is fundamental and huge - underscored in the N T aplenty, particularly to love your neighbour as oneself - and your spouse is your neighbour.
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mdgspencer
Guest
Matthew 5:32 does say that “every one who diivorces his wife, except on grounds of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman committs adultery.” I wonder if this is the passage you mean when you say the Bible allows divorce. But notice that it does not say that the person can remarry who divorces his wife (on the sole grounds of unchastity). It only says that if someone divorces his wife and if his wife remarries that she commits adultery. Actually, Catholics who get an annulment must get a divorce first, (or otherwise there can be very serious troubles from civil law). But even when a Catholic person gets a divorce nowadays according to the civil law, he or she must still consider themselves married unless the Church does in fact grant an annulment. As someone mentioned before here, there is no case of remarriage in the New Testament.
And in fact too, this passage says that whoever marries a divorced woman committs adultery, which differs very greatly from the attitudes of those who approve of divorce nowadays. And they differ from what this passage says in this way too–when people assume it is okay to get a divorce on many grounds, such as incompatability, which obviously this passage forbids.
And in fact too, this passage says that whoever marries a divorced woman committs adultery, which differs very greatly from the attitudes of those who approve of divorce nowadays. And they differ from what this passage says in this way too–when people assume it is okay to get a divorce on many grounds, such as incompatability, which obviously this passage forbids.
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cpayne
Guest
I don’t think anyone on this thread has yet quoted from the prophet Malachi: “For I hate divorce, says the Lord.”
It does seems that the Bible allows for divorce. However, even so, God is quite definite about His general attitude toward it. (In context, Malachi is talking about husbands violating their oaths of faithfulness by putting away their wives.)
It does seems that the Bible allows for divorce. However, even so, God is quite definite about His general attitude toward it. (In context, Malachi is talking about husbands violating their oaths of faithfulness by putting away their wives.)
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mdgspencer
Guest
I’m not sure about this remark, since Jesus said anyone who remarries commits adultery.
“It does seems that the Bible allows for divorce.”
“It does seems that the Bible allows for divorce.”
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cpayne
Guest
I have an interpretation of Jesus’ remark, but I don’t want to put it forward because I do not know CCC teaching on this. DOES the CCC say that remarriage after divorce is adultery?
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FCEGM
Guest
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cpayne
Guest
FCEGM, thanks for the quote. I looked it up, and it also says, in 2382, that Christ “abrogates the [divorce] accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.” So that seems pretty definitive.
One more question: 2386 says there is a “considerable difference” between a spouse who has been unjustly abandoned and the one who does the abandoning; the former is “the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law.” However, it doesn’t say this makes a difference in re-marriage. So my question: Can the innocent abandoned spouse re-marry or not? How about if the abandoning spouse re-marries? It would seem the answer would have to be no, wouldn’t it? If so, it seems pretty tough on the “innocent victim” of the divorce.
One more question: 2386 says there is a “considerable difference” between a spouse who has been unjustly abandoned and the one who does the abandoning; the former is “the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law.” However, it doesn’t say this makes a difference in re-marriage. So my question: Can the innocent abandoned spouse re-marry or not? How about if the abandoning spouse re-marries? It would seem the answer would have to be no, wouldn’t it? If so, it seems pretty tough on the “innocent victim” of the divorce.
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FCEGM
Guest
Neither can remarry unless a Declaration of Nullity is granted by the Church. It’s only “tough” on the innocent victim in such a case of abandonment if that person wishes to eventually remarry. (Unfortunately, some rush headlong into a remarriage without considering the lessons from the first.) However, it can also be a time for great spiritual growth (dying to self) as I saw with a friend (RIP) who had undergone this particular difficulty who then began a wonderful ministry within the Church to help women who had divorced.
God bless you.
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cpayne
Guest
Thanks to FCEGM for the information. Based on that, I retract the quoted comment.
Learned something new today.
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louisquinze
Guest
Hi
My original post was an attempt to show that rather than going on ‘facts’ alone - wherein one can point a finger and declare ‘guilty’, Jesus strikes at the heart of the problem - ‘hardness of heart’.
It seems to me that refusal to treat your spouse as your neighbour and to love her/him as yourself is the root cause of the disunity in marriage. Sure there will be disagreements but good will on both sides is necessary, and mutual nurturing. Expecting to always get one’s own way in a relationship is a recipe for disaster - even a friendship. How to prove ‘hardness of heart’ in a court of law?
Communication is the key to a healthy relationship; a willingness to listen/hear the other, and compromise is necessary from BOTH parties.
The sooner we learn this lesson the less likely we are to think in terms of divorce.
Modern society is not a good teacher for long-term commitment - in Jesus’ day you were lucky if you made it to middle age. We could be said to have ‘freedom without ethic’ ( see Emmanuelle Levinas) and be self-absorbed since we are told we can have/be what we want.
Quoting bible verses and being legalistic might make people feel righteous but is not conducive to the health of anyone and seems to me to be a superficial treatment of the issue.
Having said that, I reluctantly concede that some marriages don’t work and the resultant hell on earth does not seem to me to be conduce to our ‘being fully alive and the glory of God’ - St Augustine. Which of course, brings us full circle.
My original post was an attempt to show that rather than going on ‘facts’ alone - wherein one can point a finger and declare ‘guilty’, Jesus strikes at the heart of the problem - ‘hardness of heart’.
It seems to me that refusal to treat your spouse as your neighbour and to love her/him as yourself is the root cause of the disunity in marriage. Sure there will be disagreements but good will on both sides is necessary, and mutual nurturing. Expecting to always get one’s own way in a relationship is a recipe for disaster - even a friendship. How to prove ‘hardness of heart’ in a court of law?
Communication is the key to a healthy relationship; a willingness to listen/hear the other, and compromise is necessary from BOTH parties.
The sooner we learn this lesson the less likely we are to think in terms of divorce.
Modern society is not a good teacher for long-term commitment - in Jesus’ day you were lucky if you made it to middle age. We could be said to have ‘freedom without ethic’ ( see Emmanuelle Levinas) and be self-absorbed since we are told we can have/be what we want.
Quoting bible verses and being legalistic might make people feel righteous but is not conducive to the health of anyone and seems to me to be a superficial treatment of the issue.
Having said that, I reluctantly concede that some marriages don’t work and the resultant hell on earth does not seem to me to be conduce to our ‘being fully alive and the glory of God’ - St Augustine. Which of course, brings us full circle.
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