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- Status
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Aramis
Guest
L
louisquinze
Guest
Hi Governorperez
You mentioned the necessity of grace to maintain a marriage - or for that matter any other relationship - conversion is the answer, be it dramatic or gradual - it’s going beyond yourself as in crucifixion to whatever degree ( as long as one person in the relationship isn’t doing all the dying when I think it becomes pathological. Of course I’m using analogy here when talking of death - the idea is dying to one’s selfishness).
Loving one another as God has loved us is where it is at for the Christian and the New Testament is full of it
You mentioned the necessity of grace to maintain a marriage - or for that matter any other relationship - conversion is the answer, be it dramatic or gradual - it’s going beyond yourself as in crucifixion to whatever degree ( as long as one person in the relationship isn’t doing all the dying when I think it becomes pathological. Of course I’m using analogy here when talking of death - the idea is dying to one’s selfishness).
Loving one another as God has loved us is where it is at for the Christian and the New Testament is full of it
P
Petermn
Guest
This leaves me confused. As a man about to get divorced against my will - but seeing no other option. I remain concerned about my standing and feel like I have failed in the most important aspect of my family life.
If divorce is not permitted, I agree in principle with that statement - but here I am in the middle of my divorce.
Can I hold my head up as a Christian?
Peter
If divorce is not permitted, I agree in principle with that statement - but here I am in the middle of my divorce.
Can I hold my head up as a Christian?
Peter
L
louisquinze
Guest
Hi Peter
The blanket negative approach to divorce is, in my opinion a superficial reading of the text, not taking into account its subtlty. (Also remember that throughout history royalty had no problem getting a divorce - except famously for Henry Vlll -a politically charged decision concerning taxes and the Spanish king.)
Jesus is reported in the New Teastament as saying that 'divorce was given [in the OT] - because of your hardness of heart - it seems to me that this means because neither party would listen to the other and compromise, but always insist on their own way. I suspect that this comment is directed to men who essentially held the power at all levels then (and often now) .But is becoming no less relevant for women who now are not so economically dependent on men
The **ideal **is no divorce (Jesus said ‘as in the beginning’ (or similar) - the implication being that in the idyllic state of Eden niether preferred self over the other and communication that supported the value of each as a unique person was paramount. Reality, however is a different kettle of fish.
St Iranaeus (?) stated that the glory of God is man (sic) fully alive. It seems difficult to see how this can be rmanifested if a marriage or any other lifestyle is not nurturing to the soul and whole person.
In any marriage breakdown both parties have contributed - there is never only one person wronged. Taking time to think through one’s own contribution (or lack of it) to the health of the marriage is vital to continuing total health - then confess in true humility - and accept God’s love through the welcoming arms of our prodigal father. (See the parable of the Prodigal Son - the father was not typical of fathers of that day which is what makes the parable so radical and powerful for Jesus’ hearers).
And yes, you can stand tall as a Christian knowing that God loves you despite your mistakes - and you will keep being human despite your best efforts and God will still keep loving you as you do your part to plug into the Tree as one of the branches (or even a small twig!!!)
And remember after the darkness of the night, Joy comes in the morning.
The blanket negative approach to divorce is, in my opinion a superficial reading of the text, not taking into account its subtlty. (Also remember that throughout history royalty had no problem getting a divorce - except famously for Henry Vlll -a politically charged decision concerning taxes and the Spanish king.)
Jesus is reported in the New Teastament as saying that 'divorce was given [in the OT] - because of your hardness of heart - it seems to me that this means because neither party would listen to the other and compromise, but always insist on their own way. I suspect that this comment is directed to men who essentially held the power at all levels then (and often now) .But is becoming no less relevant for women who now are not so economically dependent on men
The **ideal **is no divorce (Jesus said ‘as in the beginning’ (or similar) - the implication being that in the idyllic state of Eden niether preferred self over the other and communication that supported the value of each as a unique person was paramount. Reality, however is a different kettle of fish.
St Iranaeus (?) stated that the glory of God is man (sic) fully alive. It seems difficult to see how this can be rmanifested if a marriage or any other lifestyle is not nurturing to the soul and whole person.
In any marriage breakdown both parties have contributed - there is never only one person wronged. Taking time to think through one’s own contribution (or lack of it) to the health of the marriage is vital to continuing total health - then confess in true humility - and accept God’s love through the welcoming arms of our prodigal father. (See the parable of the Prodigal Son - the father was not typical of fathers of that day which is what makes the parable so radical and powerful for Jesus’ hearers).
And yes, you can stand tall as a Christian knowing that God loves you despite your mistakes - and you will keep being human despite your best efforts and God will still keep loving you as you do your part to plug into the Tree as one of the branches (or even a small twig!!!)
And remember after the darkness of the night, Joy comes in the morning.
G
governorperez
Guest
dear friend of God,
i will pray with you.
i will pray with you.
L
louisquinze
Guest
Thank you.
S
Steel_Arrow
Guest
Let’s see what the Bible says:
In Matthew 5:32, Jesus states; “But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.”
The key here is sexual immorality, fornication. This is the only circumstance He allows for divorce.:tiphat:
In Matthew 5:32, Jesus states; “But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.”
The key here is sexual immorality, fornication. This is the only circumstance He allows for divorce.:tiphat:
T
Texas_Roofer
Guest
It sounds as though you may have been in an invalid marriage? This does occur with no fault of yours, and often without knowledge of one party. Please talk to a Church marriage ministry I think that will help you a lot. Whether you choose to remain in a religious marriage while being in a civil divorce status is one case. The other case is to have an officially annulled document. Both are licit Christian states. The marriage ministry is lay people who assist people as yourself.
P
Petermn
Guest
Thank you for a wealth of advice and encouragement.
louisquinze - that was educational and comforting.
steelArrow gave me the quotes and
Texas Roofer - your comments about invalid marriage was very interesting.
We were married in a Christian Church although neither of us were practising Christian at the time, I have since become enlightened.
I will speak to my church about the matter but in what kind of instance can a marriage be invalid?
We both meant it at the time and took our vows in church,
This is a wonderfully educational commuication - -thanks to all who have replied,
Petermn
louisquinze - that was educational and comforting.
steelArrow gave me the quotes and
Texas Roofer - your comments about invalid marriage was very interesting.
We were married in a Christian Church although neither of us were practising Christian at the time, I have since become enlightened.
I will speak to my church about the matter but in what kind of instance can a marriage be invalid?
We both meant it at the time and took our vows in church,
This is a wonderfully educational commuication - -thanks to all who have replied,
Petermn
R
RhyannaRose
Guest
There’s also rape, incest, murder, adultery…and so on and so on in the Bible. Does that mean those things are acceptable too just because they are talked about in the Bible?
L
LuvHim
Guest
Let us look at this passage…
Matthew 19:8-10 KJV 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Greek for fornication…
4202 πορνεία [porneia /por·ni·ah/] n f. From 4203; TDNT 6:579; TDNTA 918; GK 4518; 26 occurrences; AV translates as “fornication” 26 times. 1 illicit sexual intercourse. 1a adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. 1b sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18. 1c sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12. 2 metaph. the worship of idols. 2a of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols.
I am not sure where you get this assertion (“if you find that your Marriage was invalid, because of close family ties”)…and how you say that we, as Protestants, use this to justify any divorce at all. This may be in the case of some folks but not all. The CC allows all kinds of this to go on with annulments, etc. This is not scriptural.
In this verse, it seems Jesus is saying that you will not be guilty of adultery if you opt out of a marriage where your spouse was cheating on you. I know people that have had this happen to them and they actually tried to work it out but the spouse would not cooperate (the cheating spouse).
L
Linkowski
Guest
In Matthew 19, Jesus states that God ordained the institution of marriage, and He has decreed that in every marriage, the husband and wife are to become one for life. Divorce destroys the marriage and thus breaks asunder a union God Himself has established (Mark 10:9). “I hate divorce,” says the Lord (Mal. 2:16).
Jesus’ teaching on divorce is clear. He restricted divorce under most circumstances, and He forbade the remarriage of those who divorce on improper grounds, calling such remarriage adultery: “But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery” (Matt. 5:32). The word “unchastity” in that verse is the Greek word porneia, “fornication”—which includes all kinds of gross sexual immorality.
The Old Testament contained a few provisions governing the remarriage of divorced people (Lev. 21:11, 14; Deut. 24:1-4). The rabbis had taken these laws and broadened them to permit divorce for virtually any reason. Under the rabbinical laws, if a wife displeased her husband in any way, he was entitled to divorce her. Jesus stated that this was never the purpose of Moses’ Law. In fact, Jesus teaching on divorce was given specifically to refute the rabbinical loopholes. Furthermore, He so rigidly opposed divorce, that when He had completed His teaching, His disciples concluded that it would be better never to get married (Matt. 19:10)!
So God’s utter hatred of divorce is very clear in Scripture.
Nonetheless, there are two extraordinary cases in which Scripture teaches that God does permit divorced people to remarry.
First, note that Jesus Himself included this exception clause: “Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery” (Matt. 19:9, King James Version, emphasis added). He allows an exception in this one case, only “because of the hardness of your hearts” (Matt. 19:8). Clearly, Jesus is treating divorce as a last resort, only to be sought in the case of hard-hearted adultery.
The apostle Paul allows one more reason for divorce: if an unbelieving spouse abandons a believer, the believer is under no obligation in such a case (1 Cor. 7:14). This would free the abandoned spouse to remarry.
But we must emphasize that apart from those two specific, exceptional cases, divorce is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Jesus’ teaching on divorce is clear. He restricted divorce under most circumstances, and He forbade the remarriage of those who divorce on improper grounds, calling such remarriage adultery: “But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery” (Matt. 5:32). The word “unchastity” in that verse is the Greek word porneia, “fornication”—which includes all kinds of gross sexual immorality.
The Old Testament contained a few provisions governing the remarriage of divorced people (Lev. 21:11, 14; Deut. 24:1-4). The rabbis had taken these laws and broadened them to permit divorce for virtually any reason. Under the rabbinical laws, if a wife displeased her husband in any way, he was entitled to divorce her. Jesus stated that this was never the purpose of Moses’ Law. In fact, Jesus teaching on divorce was given specifically to refute the rabbinical loopholes. Furthermore, He so rigidly opposed divorce, that when He had completed His teaching, His disciples concluded that it would be better never to get married (Matt. 19:10)!
So God’s utter hatred of divorce is very clear in Scripture.
Nonetheless, there are two extraordinary cases in which Scripture teaches that God does permit divorced people to remarry.
First, note that Jesus Himself included this exception clause: “Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery” (Matt. 19:9, King James Version, emphasis added). He allows an exception in this one case, only “because of the hardness of your hearts” (Matt. 19:8). Clearly, Jesus is treating divorce as a last resort, only to be sought in the case of hard-hearted adultery.
The apostle Paul allows one more reason for divorce: if an unbelieving spouse abandons a believer, the believer is under no obligation in such a case (1 Cor. 7:14). This would free the abandoned spouse to remarry.
But we must emphasize that apart from those two specific, exceptional cases, divorce is not sanctioned in Scripture.
L
louisquinze
Guest
Hi Peter and others
The problem is, even with all the proscriptions of rightness and wrongness, we as humans are left with living our lives in the fragments of our lives. We stuff up!!! Constantly.
Jesus seems consistently to have been displeased by the intransigence and arrogance (hardness of heart) of his listeners Refusal to treat one’s spouse as a neighbour who deserves one’s best at all times including the grace to apologise (ego can be so entrenched) can be as bad as adultery and this is the point Jesus was making ( i think) . The necessity of one party to the relationship to be seen as right all the time is very wearing on the other party.
( In short if one or other of the parties to a relationship of any sort gives the impression of seeing themselves as God the other party is seen as a lesser being by the first)
To jump on the band wagon and make rigid rules about something (marriage) that is meant to be a mirror of divine love can bring one very close to self-righteousness - another -ve in Jesus view. Bringing up rules and regs is easy and has the side effect of helping one point the finger and feel that one is not like those lapsed others.
The church did not get inviolved in marriage as such until the 12th century - and still has the need for getting around the ‘no divorce’ thing by way of annulments and ‘invalid marriages’- perhaps a bit of fancy footwork. And people I know who have gone that route have no respect for it .
Let’s look at the quality of divine love as displayed in the trinity - equality, respect from each member to each member as a member of the trinity and for the activity of each member, (no jealousy!!!), total communication, while each is not the other their being and work is complementary to the other members of the trinity. One can go on.
This is the ideal, we work it out on earth to the best of our love of God and self (remember we can’t love others until we rightly love ourselves - Jesus was/is super smart!!!).
If your relationship is salvageable - go for it -gently. If it’s not, let it go with as much love as you can muster.
Agape
The problem is, even with all the proscriptions of rightness and wrongness, we as humans are left with living our lives in the fragments of our lives. We stuff up!!! Constantly.
Jesus seems consistently to have been displeased by the intransigence and arrogance (hardness of heart) of his listeners Refusal to treat one’s spouse as a neighbour who deserves one’s best at all times including the grace to apologise (ego can be so entrenched) can be as bad as adultery and this is the point Jesus was making ( i think) . The necessity of one party to the relationship to be seen as right all the time is very wearing on the other party.
( In short if one or other of the parties to a relationship of any sort gives the impression of seeing themselves as God the other party is seen as a lesser being by the first)
To jump on the band wagon and make rigid rules about something (marriage) that is meant to be a mirror of divine love can bring one very close to self-righteousness - another -ve in Jesus view. Bringing up rules and regs is easy and has the side effect of helping one point the finger and feel that one is not like those lapsed others.
The church did not get inviolved in marriage as such until the 12th century - and still has the need for getting around the ‘no divorce’ thing by way of annulments and ‘invalid marriages’- perhaps a bit of fancy footwork. And people I know who have gone that route have no respect for it .
Let’s look at the quality of divine love as displayed in the trinity - equality, respect from each member to each member as a member of the trinity and for the activity of each member, (no jealousy!!!), total communication, while each is not the other their being and work is complementary to the other members of the trinity. One can go on.
This is the ideal, we work it out on earth to the best of our love of God and self (remember we can’t love others until we rightly love ourselves - Jesus was/is super smart!!!).
If your relationship is salvageable - go for it -gently. If it’s not, let it go with as much love as you can muster.
Agape
P
Petermn
Guest
Thank you again for you enlightening words.
I am in the process of sorting out what has happened to my perceptions over the last year.
It must be said that the horror of my pending separation and almost certain divorce is the vehicle which has taken me to a great level of enlightenment spiritualy.It seems like I needed a shove to get to get me to this level, but I cant help but wish I had this perception and awareness when we were messing up our marriage! - cant turn the clock back though.
I’m now trying to sort out what has happenned by praising the good and doing the best I can with the bad.
You have all been very helpful - - your comments are always appreciated.
Petermn
I am in the process of sorting out what has happened to my perceptions over the last year.
It must be said that the horror of my pending separation and almost certain divorce is the vehicle which has taken me to a great level of enlightenment spiritualy.It seems like I needed a shove to get to get me to this level, but I cant help but wish I had this perception and awareness when we were messing up our marriage! - cant turn the clock back though.
I’m now trying to sort out what has happenned by praising the good and doing the best I can with the bad.
You have all been very helpful - - your comments are always appreciated.
Petermn
L
louisquinze
Guest
Hi Peter
Unfortunately the only way we generally get understanding is through experience but we can decide how we respond to our experiences - by being -ve and becoming bitter, or by humbly accepting responsibility for our part and doing what repairs are possible.
When my marriage failed I didn’t want divorce - I wanted change and to be treated like a real person - and I handled it with all the wisdom I had at the time, as one does (now I can see how little that was !!!). And I can see how ego involved I was. These with the wonderful clarity of hindsight.
Are you able to talk to each other? Can you build bridges? I have met people who have separated for a while and come back together after months or years.
Have you tried getting away on a retreat or somesuch to be quiet and take some time out to sort yourself out.
Whatever you do treat yourself as gently as God treats you.
One of my favourite images is from the Old Testament ‘…a bruised reed thou wilt not despise…’. ( Don’t ask me wherefrom, I’m really bad at that). It seems that the ancient shepherds would not take out of their reed flutes/whistles a bruised reed but would bind it in some way to support it so that it would still play - I think God does the same with us.
I will carry you in my heart and pray for you.
Agape
Unfortunately the only way we generally get understanding is through experience but we can decide how we respond to our experiences - by being -ve and becoming bitter, or by humbly accepting responsibility for our part and doing what repairs are possible.
When my marriage failed I didn’t want divorce - I wanted change and to be treated like a real person - and I handled it with all the wisdom I had at the time, as one does (now I can see how little that was !!!). And I can see how ego involved I was. These with the wonderful clarity of hindsight.
Are you able to talk to each other? Can you build bridges? I have met people who have separated for a while and come back together after months or years.
Have you tried getting away on a retreat or somesuch to be quiet and take some time out to sort yourself out.
Whatever you do treat yourself as gently as God treats you.
One of my favourite images is from the Old Testament ‘…a bruised reed thou wilt not despise…’. ( Don’t ask me wherefrom, I’m really bad at that). It seems that the ancient shepherds would not take out of their reed flutes/whistles a bruised reed but would bind it in some way to support it so that it would still play - I think God does the same with us.
I will carry you in my heart and pray for you.
Agape
P
Petermn
Guest
Thank you Agape
Very kind and uplifting words.
yes we do speak - we still live together - with our children - but my wife is determined to split.
I do take your advice - I am taking it with dignity and I dont think I’m being bitter.
There is always hope/
Did you get back together or are you still divorced? (if you dont mind me asking!)
Thanks again for your comforting message.
Petermn
Very kind and uplifting words.
yes we do speak - we still live together - with our children - but my wife is determined to split.
I do take your advice - I am taking it with dignity and I dont think I’m being bitter.
There is always hope/
Did you get back together or are you still divorced? (if you dont mind me asking!)
Thanks again for your comforting message.
Petermn
L
louisquinze
Guest
Unfortunately no - both parties have to be willing.
You are both still under the same roof - that can be a plus - and you are both sharing care of the children, another plus. Don’t panic.
If you change your style your family might get thrown at first but you just need to be consistent and agape-ing.
Is there someone near-by you can talk to who could listen to you and give you some backup? Have you been to a priest or counsellor? Be careful of friends or family they can tend to take sides and both parties have contributed to the state of the marriage.
Are you able to listen to your wife without butting in, letting her finish what she’s saying?
Do you know about ‘giving I messages’
That is NOT saying You make me etc…instead it’s putting it from your perspective eg
When you do …
I feel…
And what I’d like is/would be …
(the ‘cracked record technique’ is sayiing the same thing over and over again)
and try not to lose your temper (logic really disappears then and pride and ego get firmly in control).
Take care.
If the sun is out in your part of the world go out and stand in it - if it’s not dance in the rain (but don’t catch cold!!!).
You are both still under the same roof - that can be a plus - and you are both sharing care of the children, another plus. Don’t panic.
If you change your style your family might get thrown at first but you just need to be consistent and agape-ing.
Is there someone near-by you can talk to who could listen to you and give you some backup? Have you been to a priest or counsellor? Be careful of friends or family they can tend to take sides and both parties have contributed to the state of the marriage.
Are you able to listen to your wife without butting in, letting her finish what she’s saying?
Do you know about ‘giving I messages’
That is NOT saying You make me etc…instead it’s putting it from your perspective eg
When you do …
I feel…
And what I’d like is/would be …
(the ‘cracked record technique’ is sayiing the same thing over and over again)
and try not to lose your temper (logic really disappears then and pride and ego get firmly in control).
Take care.
If the sun is out in your part of the world go out and stand in it - if it’s not dance in the rain (but don’t catch cold!!!).
P
Petermn
Guest
We have been to councilling together (non Christian) and I have reluctantly agreed to go ahead with the divorce but nothing has been signed legally yet.
Its gone a bit quite and she has not mentioned the subject for a couple of weeks - BUT I’m convinced its still set in her mind.
In the meantime I continue to try to be a good dad and do all the right things around the home.
I feel that no news is good news at the moment and I certainly dont want to bring up the subject.
I personaly have had some comfort from the local Priest and this situation has brought me closer to the faith. I am planning some stuctured learning this autumn.
Thankyou for your advice - I do feel that I will end up in a similar situation to you a few months down the line - but its great to read your comforting words. You sound happy - you did all you could.
But isnt it funny how in hindsight - one can see so clearly where one went wrong?
Petermn
Its gone a bit quite and she has not mentioned the subject for a couple of weeks - BUT I’m convinced its still set in her mind.
In the meantime I continue to try to be a good dad and do all the right things around the home.
I feel that no news is good news at the moment and I certainly dont want to bring up the subject.
I personaly have had some comfort from the local Priest and this situation has brought me closer to the faith. I am planning some stuctured learning this autumn.
Thankyou for your advice - I do feel that I will end up in a similar situation to you a few months down the line - but its great to read your comforting words. You sound happy - you did all you could.
But isnt it funny how in hindsight - one can see so clearly where one went wrong?
Petermn
P
Petermn
Guest
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