Is there hope for me even though I am not Roman Catholic?

[CalmDownWisWins]

Well, you are getting closer to understanding.

Our good friend believes that he has infallible assurance of his own salvation based, NOT on personal divine revelation, but based upon his fallible (he admits this) understanding of Scripture.

So, he somehow draws infallibly known knowledge (aka “assurance”) from an admittedly known fallible interpretation (aka “personal revelation”)?

Right. … So, I do rather wish he’d explain how that works.

We have said over and over that such knowledge simply is not “absolutely certain” in the manner he wishes to have it. And its not good enough for him to simply have “reasonable assurance” like we do that, say, the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. He needs to have “absolute assurance” of the verdict of God’s judgement now - before God actually judges him.

Yet another “odd” brainteaser, eh?

It really is the concept of “absolute certainty” that has us speaking past one another. He does not seem to understand that, apart from divine revelation, he simply has the “assurance of faith” which is a tremendous blessing, but does not meet the criteria of “absolute certainty”. It’s not really worth this much effort…

To him, it is worth a “shot” at trying to convert others to his “partially sensible” (to the undereducated) heresy by exposing only PARTS of what he thinks he believes, but when we ask to be informed as to how he actually connects the disparate things that he says with sensible logic, since he DOES believe what he says yet can’t support them, he is overcome with fear (generated by you-know-who) that he’s about to lose his “god” to “we barbarians” and high-tails it out of here jack-rabbit like.

The sure sign of a “false prophet” is refusing to simply name his “ground-level” axioms, usually because they are simple contraversions (negation) of a, or many, dogma(s) that even HE knows should not be contraverted!

The obvious self-contradiction is unbearable, and as with all “decently fervent” false prophets, he can unconsciously sense that the self-contradiction is looming and leave before doing himself more damage than most people will notice.

Most people see his “retirement from the fray” as him agreeing that we aren’t going to “convert” each other and that he’s being “charitably nonconfrontational” by admitting the impasse, and seeing him as “a nice guy with differing views to our own”, while in reality he is a hairs-breadth away from total panic and collapse in the face of being FORCED by his own logic to admit his utter self-contradictory proposition!

To call him anything but a coward is being uncharitable toward all honest people.

 

[Refugium]

My understanding is, one who is, and knows the truth of the Catholic Church is held bond by the “Outside of the Church is No Salvation”.

Let me get this straight: you believe that the Catholic Church is only necessary for salvation for those who know and believe it is true? “Outside the Catholic Church Is No Salvation” is certainly a peculiar phraseology for that don’t you think? Do you actually believe there are people who know the Church is true and necessary for their salvation but refuse to enter? Wouldn’t the world be better off if we never preached the Catholic faith? After all, according to your belief, they would all be saved by invincible ignorance anyway, and surely more people could get into heaven that way than if we actually challenged them to become Catholic.

While that may be your understanding, some of our Popes, while speaking ex cathedra (infallibly), seem to have had a slightly different understanding:

* "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
* "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
* "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

I’ll stick with the Popes, thanks!

 

[onmyknees]

CalmDownWisWins,
Thanks again for taking the time to post me. I understand what you are saying. When seeking the true answers we must always look to the authority of the Church who is guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[whatisthetruth]

**Hey WhatIs,

Thanks for not being a drive-by! **

Your welcome

**I really appreciate your stamina! **

Thank you, as I appreciate yours and everyone here.
I met many faithful people here.

IF …IF… I say IF… and again IF I were God, you would all go to heaven.

**Even though we’ll probably have to agree to disagree on certain things,

** darn I am so disappointed

NO NO NO just kidding

Aren’t all familys like that?. Do family members agree all the time.?

I have not met a family yet that does.
However conquers all

you have definitely shown that you are hanging in there and trying!

As long as the good Lord gives me another day, I am thankful and I keep on keeping on my spiritual journey.

thank you again for your kindness

God bless,

truth.

 

[Chellow]

My understanding is, one who is, and knows the truth of the Catholic Church is held bond by the “Outside of the Church is No Salvation”.

Just because some one visits this forum, be he or she Catholic or not does not mean they are endowed with any knowledge of the true faith. Truth can disguise it’s self and only though grace and love are we going to be united with each other.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

clerus.org/clerus/dati/1998-12/10-6/CCC_1.rtf.html

Let me get this straight: you believe that the Catholic Church is only necessary for salvation for those who know and believe it is true? “Outside the Catholic Church Is No Salvation” is certainly a peculiar phraseology for that don’t you think? Do you actually believe there are people who know the Church is true and necessary for their salvation but refuse to enter? Wouldn’t the world be better off if we never preached the Catholic faith? After all, according to your belief, they would all be saved by invincible ignorance anyway, and surely more people could get into heaven that way than if we actually challenged them to become Catholic.

While that may be your understanding, some of our Popes, while speaking ex cathedra (infallibly), seem to have had a slightly different understanding:

I’ll stick with the Popes, thanks!

Try your self to make sense of that part of the Catechism, that’s the only sense I make of it, I’ll welcome you or anyone’s to discern what it means.

 

[mercygate]

Let me get this straight: you believe that the Catholic Church is only necessary for salvation for those who know and believe it is true? “Outside the Catholic Church Is No Salvation” is certainly a peculiar phraseology for that don’t you think? Do you actually believe there are people who know the Church is true and necessary for their salvation but refuse to enter? Wouldn’t the world be better off if we never preached the Catholic faith? After all, according to your belief, they would all be saved by invincible ignorance anyway, and surely more people could get into heaven that way than if we actually challenged them to become Catholic.

While that may be your understanding, some of our Popes, while speaking ex cathedra (infallibly), seem to have had a slightly different understanding:

I’ll stick with the Popes, thanks!

If someone who is invincibly ignorant is saved, he is still saved by the power of Jesus Christ through the Church.

The problem I see with holding out the hope (?) of invincible ignorance as a passcard is that the term seems to have become confused with “invincible truculence.” The truculence we see at CAF is often grounded in culpable ignorance. It is the truculence, not the ignorance, that seems invincible.

 

[whatisthetruth]

WOW

may I say WOW

and another WOW

CalmDownWisWins and Philthy, OUCH That hurt

I leave you with the kindest of words and you say what you did,

Read the story of Stephen and the last words he said before he was stoned to death .

Then ask God, in prayer, about the message being presented and you will know what I mean by saying,

I am sorry , I am feeling I am being “stoned” like Stephen was by you right now, but it is all good .

BTW, St Paul then Saul was the head “cheerleader” of Stephen’s death.

**I know the Catholic community as a whole does not share in your sentiments. **

Oh!! BTW, didn’t Jesus say something like, whoever has not sinned, let him be the one who throws the first stone?

and

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:1

However, let me absorb a few more blows and I will block them with the “Armour of God” as told in Ephesians

To call him anything but a coward is being uncharitable toward all honest people.

It really is the concept of “absolute certainty” that has us speaking past one another. He does not seem to understand that, apart from divine revelation, he simply has the “assurance of faith” which is a tremendous blessing, but does not meet the criteria of “absolute certainty”. It’s not really worth this much effort…

To him, it is worth a “shot” at trying to convert others to his “partially sensible” (to the undereducated) heresy by exposing only PARTS of what he thinks he believes, but when we ask to be informed as to how he actually connects the disparate things that he says with sensible logic, since he DOES believe what he says yet can’t support them, he is overcome with fear (generated by you-know-who) that he’s about to lose his “god” to “we barbarians” and high-tails it out of here jack-rabbit like

Our good friend believes that he has infallible assurance of his own salvation based, NOT on personal divine revelation, but based upon his fallible (he admits this) understanding of Scripture

Yet another “odd” brainteaser, eh?

I am sorry you two, I have to admit I posted the following AFTER I saw these comments.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3253908#post3253908

However, I can assure you that I did not post the above thread as a result of your comments.

The Comments I posted came from the heart of who I am.

I am a Christian who loves our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

Having said that, I hold no grudges against you for saying what you did, on behalf of all non Catholic Christians I forgive you of all the slanderous non Christian-like remarks

May God bless you and keep you,

truth

 

[whatisthetruth]

Stay tuned I willl answer the questions on salvation you addressed here on the thread, especially the comment about

What is the point?

Be back later

God bless

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

If someone who is invincibly ignorant is saved, he is still saved by the power of Jesus Christ through the Church.

**The problem I see with holding out the hope (?) of invincible ignorance as a passcard is that the term seems to have become confused with “invincible truculence.” **

HAH HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha…!

Oh, goodness, yes, my goodness, heh he he, that is SO true!!

The truculence we see at CAF is often grounded in culpable ignorance. It is the truculence, not the ignorance, that seems invincible.

Hear hear!

It’s only for us to “smell” that whiff of “internal anxiety” that the “invincibly truculent” give off, which the truly invincibly ignorant don’t. We can’t know, of course, but the more “resistence” a non-Catholic (AND a Catholic, actually!) exhibits toward getting at the base non-negotiable (axiomatic) beliefs of the “two sides” on this issue, the more the stench of “Oh, C r a p!”-edness (known culpability) pervades the room.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

CalmDownWisWins and Philthy, OUCH That hurt

I leave you with the kindest of words and you say what you did,

Read the story of Stephen and the last words he said before he was stoned to death .

Then ask God, in prayer, about the message being presented and you will know what I mean by saying,

I am sorry , I am feeling I am being “stoned” like Stephen was by you right now, but it is all good .

First, we have a self-identification with “The Good Thief”, then it’s with the Martyr St. Stephen.

Hmmmm…

What shall be next?

Anyway, if you’ll actually respond to the individual points of what I said that you take issue with, then we can continue our talk.

It is this EXACT behavior of yours that makes getting to “brass tacks” so difficult. You are unresponsive to comments of mine which would lead to being able to agree to disagree about basic beliefs, while those things you DO respond to are simply claims of “victimhood”.

Now, as I said before, this is actually expected behavior from those further away from the Church than they could otherwise be, so we’re used to it, but you’ve shown yourself to be one of THE MOST sticktoitive folks I’ve ever seen around here in quite some time! Do keep up the good work, and let’s get to the actual base differences between us.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

I am a Christian who loves our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

Having said that, I hold no grudges against you for saying what you did, on behalf of all non Catholic Christians I forgive you of all the slanderous non Christian-like remarks

You know, I never did figure out how to spell, “Koom-buy-ah”.

I’m not questioning your Christian-ness. That you would see my remarks as non-Christian is yet more simplistic understanding of what “Christian” means.

Protestants will ALWAYS, at some point or other, claim “Uncharity!” at being told the truth, because, as I’m seeming constantly rambling on about, their “personal comfort” is more important than truth.

This is what makes it difficult to interact with protestants in the area of religion in an adult manner. Constantly having to support their egos is a cross to bear that **I PERSONALLY **have a VERY hard time doing.

Mea culpa culpa mea mea maxima culpa!

In a venue where all we have is words, it’s very difficult to make a showing of the truth while keeping one’s mouth shut!

 

[whatisthetruth]

You know, I never did figure out how to spell, “Koom-buy-ah”.

I’m not questioning your Christian-ness. That you would see my remarks as non-Christian is yet more simplistic understanding of what “Christian” means.

Protestants will ALWAYS, at some point or other, claim “Uncharity!” at being told the truth, because, as I’m seeming constantly rambling on about, their “personal comfort” is more important than truth.

This is what makes it difficult to interact with protestants in the area of religion in an adult manner. Constantly having to support their egos is a cross to bear that **I PERSONALLY **have a VERY hard time doing.

Mea culpa culpa mea mea maxima culpa!

In a venue where all we have is words, it’s very difficult to make a showing of the truth while keeping one’s mouth shut!

Keep in mind I am not Protestant, look at what Kolbe said about me a little while back, hint hint

And yes I agree that communication can be difficult because we are limited to only word and “smileys” which I find help

 

[whatisthetruth]

First, we have a self-identification with “The Good Thief”, then it’s with the Martyr St. Stephen.

Hmmmm…

What shall be next?

Only God know’s And I believe I do too. Stay tuned I have some good surprises.

You like surprises?

Just remember CalmDownWisWins I am on your side, you have not fully accepted that yet, AS far as I am concerned, you are on my side =…Jesus side,

You with me or against me?

Truth
.

 

[whatisthetruth]

hi whatis… could you explain how Jesus’s word in St John6;53-70 are a test of faith.So Peter declares “where would we go for you have the words of everlasting life”.is a test everlasting life? i can not understand why Jesus would say to those who preached in His name performing miracles and casting out demons,away from me I do not -know-you.from scripture one protestant pastor said the word know in the bible means a intimate knowledge as Mary did not-know- a man.so when we(catholics)recieve the Eucharist with full faith,Christ knows us intimately.

FB, Sorry I missed this one

Test of faith in the way, some believed Jesus words , some did not.

I can tell you right now I went to High school in Kenilworth NJ.

Do have the faith I am telling you the truth?

Thank God you receive Christ, by way of the Eucharist. As a Catholic I never made the connection that the host was the body of Jesus, the same Jesus on that crucifix in church, the same Jesus in heaven.

I would imagine there are young kids that do not make that connection either, like I didn’t when I was a kid. then the kid grow up to be a adult and the connect still has not been made

BTW like I said in a previous post, Catholics have the Eucharist and when you receive communion, the Physical “host” goes to your stomach, however it is Jesus in body and blood who goes to your heart

correct?

You and I receive different ways, the fact is we receive Jesus.

Am I going to hell because I receive Jesus differently than Catholics, I will find out when I get to eternity,

God bless, truth

 

[whatisthetruth]

No - with regard to particular individuals (those still walking the earth), God has not yet made any decision. it would be very presumtuous of us to predict in advance what God will say.

There are two Judgements: the first is the Particular Judgement which occurs at the moment of death, where God tells you His decision regarding your life. Nobody can know what God will decide about them until that moment.

Then, there is the Judgement of the Nations, where God will make His judgements public, when all sin and all good works will be revealed publicly; this will be at the moment of the Resurrection. The damned will be resurrected to physical damnation, and the saved will be resurrected to physical bliss in Heaven.

jmcrae,

We will just have to agree to disagree

Blessings

truth

 

[whatisthetruth]

Thomas’ fear should not BE eased if he is not doing ALL he should be doing to attain heaven!

If he is “privately reconciled” with God, and truly commited to being “publically reconciled” with God (via a priest), and he meets his end between the two, then he can be as assured as is possible that heaven awaits him.

But not 100% sure. Is that correct?

The protestant, who refuses to commit to God’s due, which is “public reconciliation”, refuses a direct command on God.

We can certainly THINK that we are 100% assured of heaven,** but who is more likely to achieve it **?

The faithful who believe that God does not lie when He said this

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye** may know that ye have eternal life**

Truth

 

[fbl9]

hi whatis… that crucifix hanging in the church is a constant reminder of God’s love for me.it is how i was redeemed. how i became a son of God most high.the God who lives in me.i can say with St. Paul "For i determined not to know anything among you but except Jesus and him crucified"1Cor.2:2 the prayer of St Bede the venerable…Let me not O Lord be puffed up with wordly wisdom,that passes away, but grant me that love which never abates,that i may not choose to know anything among men,but Jesus and Him crucified.

 

[whatisthetruth]

CalmDownWisWins
What does “accepting Jesus Christ as personal savior and Lord” mean?

I gave you the answer many of time.

Here is some incentive

by Kolbe, #135

I see nothing wrong with you going to sleep with that confidence. I do the same thing. I just choose to call my confidence faith and hope, rather than 100% knowledge.

Also he said about the video I referred,

We are so close. I watched the entire message from the Paul Washer link you provided. It was titled a “shocking” message, and I will admit to being shocked by it. Not because of the message, but because** the message was coming from a Protestant.** That was by far the most Catholic preaching I’ve ever heard from a Protestant. The message of not being of this world and living your faith (not because you should but because you must) has been taught by the Catholic Church for 2000 years. No Catholic who knows their faith would have been shocked by his message at ALL. The Church has always taught it and the Bible has always taught it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3245281&postcount=135

and my reply,
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3246580&postcount=143

Paul washer will answer your question better than I ever could

As you were to say later, our posts are limited to words. It makes communication difficult

truth

 

[whatisthetruth]

We ARE receiving the actual flesh and blood of Jesus into our BODY (the “stomach” usage is unecessarily vulgar), as well as into our hearts, and as long as one knows the truth of what God has commanded us, both “receivings” are REQUIRED unless one or the other (I’m just covering my “logical bases”) are not possible.

All that matters to God is that we do what He says to do, and what He says to do is to do BOTH if possible.

My answer was a “No” only if you know the truth and don’t do it.

Do you know the truth, and not do it, or don’t you know the truth, and do what is “sufficient”?

Sorry I meant no harm by saying stomach, I was stating a fact that receiving communion is a lot more than the host enterig the you know what,

We accept Jesus in our hearts at communion and yes our body,
it is by his transforming power which changes us from inside out,

truth

 

[whatisthetruth]

Whatis, what you are missing is that it is not our feelings that get us into Heaven - feelings of self-assurance, etc. - but rather, the Judgement of God.

God will not Judge us until after we die; therefore, we have no way of knowing at this present moment what God’s Judgement upon us will be. God Himself has not yet made that decision, and who are we to speak before He speaks?

Imagine how rude it would be if someone said to you, “Oh, you are going to give me thus-and-so for my birthday present,” before you had made the decision to do that.

I understand your logic here, God is not logical.

He gave us his word.

You tell me what he meant by.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God

read 1 Timothy 1, do you beleive the same?

truth