Is there quiet time in a Divine Liturgy for personal reflection?

[ConstantineTG]

The homily can be a good time for a meditation break, especially if the priest has a very soft, soothing voice.

You’re supposed to be listening and taking in what the priest is saying

 

[jwinch2]

The objective is the same (unity in prayer and unity with God) but for our praxis that is achieved by constant prayer. This means no quite time for one to his own reflection. This also extends to the theology of the Liturgy, that is the Liturgy is a gathering of the people, coming together as one body. Thus the constant praying and singing is getting us all to be doing the same thing and focused on the same thing, that is prayer to God. To veer off into your own personal reflection time is contrary to the purpose of Liturgy by our praxis. On of St. Luke’s favorite words in Acts is “homothumadon”, meaning “one mind”. The Liturgy is meant to make the gathered into one mind. As we enter the Kingdom of Heaven as a communion of believers, we should be “vibrating at the same frequency” so to speak. Not only with our immediate community but with all other communities as well, praying unceasingly the same prayers and performing the same actions throughout the Liturgy.

Interesting info. Thank you.

 

[jwinch2]

The homily can be a good time for a meditation break, especially if the priest has a very soft, soothing voice.

http://www.jejaktrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/true-story.png

Well played.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Also, just a note, depends on how organized one parish is and how the priest arranges with the cantor/choir. I’ve been to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy where the cantor has enough hymns and psalms to fill in all parts of the Liturgy. In our parish it is not far off that sometimes we finish a hymn and the priest is still in the middle of some of the low-voice prayers. Thus there is some “dead air”. If there is a good collaboration between priest and cantor, it should make sure there is no silence.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Also, just a note, depends on how organized one parish is and how the priest arranges with the cantor/choir. I’ve been to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy where the cantor has enough hymns and psalms to fill in all parts of the Liturgy. In our parish it is not far off that sometimes we finish a hymn and the priest is still in the middle of some of the low-voice prayers. Thus there is some “dead air”. If there is a good collaboration between priest and cantor, it should make sure there is no silence.

It’s an art …

That said, in Eastern tradition, the proper time for personal prayer and reflection in church is before and/or after the Divine Liturgy. In fact, prayers of preparation are recommended and often included in peoples’ books for reference.

 

[jwinch2]

Also, just a note, depends on how organized one parish is and how the priest arranges with the cantor/choir. I’ve been to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy where the cantor has enough hymns and psalms to fill in all parts of the Liturgy. In our parish it is not far off that sometimes we finish a hymn and the priest is still in the middle of some of the low-voice prayers. Thus there is some “dead air”. If there is a good collaboration between priest and cantor, it should make sure there is no silence.

Again, interesting stuff. The idea of there being no silence at all, is so different. I respect the Eastern Tradition a great deal, but as I noted above, silence is something I would miss at the Mass if it were not there. I have come to really appreciate that time to listen to what is being said to us by God as a community.

I’ve linked this article previously in other threads, but in case anyone hasn’t seen it, it does a nice of discussing the issue of silence from the perspective of the Latin Church. It was written by a Bishop who also happens to be a Benedictine Monk.
vultus.stblogs.org/2012/03/a-benedictine-bishop-on-silenc.html

Peace,

 

[ConstantineTG]

It’s an art …

That said, in Eastern tradition, the proper time for personal prayer and reflection in church is before and/or after the Divine Liturgy. In fact, prayers of preparation are recommended and often included in peoples’ books for reference.

Yup, also can be done at home. Or as mentioned, stick around after Liturgy (or before but I mean, c’mon, you’re Eastern Catholic. You know that never happens )

 

[theistgal]

Yup, also can be done at home. Or as mentioned, stick around after Liturgy (or before but I mean, c’mon, you’re Eastern Catholic. You know that never happens )

Well, afterwards there’s usually coffee & donuts, not to mention ECF classes for the kids.

However, I will say that on WEEKDAYS it’s much easier to find that “quiet time” both before and after the Liturgy - rarely more than a few people there, and the green pew books have those nice morning prayers in them now.

 

[mardukm]

One thing I notice about the Latin praxis, which no one here seems to have picked up on, is that the moments of silence are communal. There are specific times when EVERYONE participates in this reverential silence. It’s not like one person can determine individualistically when to have a moment of personal prayer. That’s the big difference I notice between a Latin Catholic Mass and a Protestant service.

One should also remember that personal prayer in Mass during these specific, liturgically-determined times of silence is never an individual work, but is always joined to the prayers of the Saints in heaven in a much deeper manner than if one were to do it outside of Mass. It is always a communal event on a level that goes beyond the physical realm. Again, this is different from the Protestant mindset which is not only personal, but also individualistic.

Reading quickly through the thread, I noticed someone stated these moments of silence for personal prayer in the Latin Mass is “contrary” to the Eastern mind. If the communal aspect is always maintained, how is it “contrary” to the Eastern phrenoma? I can see that moments of silence for personal reflection is a different way of expressing the communal aspect of the Liturgy, but “contrary”…?

The Latin idea of Liturgy seems to be more mystical than the Eastern, whereas the Eastern idea is more sacramental (for lack of better terms). I mean, the Latins seem more readily able to detach the communal aspect from the physical realm (hence, “mystical”), whereas the Easterns attach it greatly to the physical realm (hence, “sacramental”).

This reminds me of the topic of “private Masses.” In the Latin phrenoma, every Mass is a public/ communal event, even if only two are present - even if, in extenuating circumstances, only the priest is present. The Mass celebrated in one specific location is always regarded as being part and parcel of every other Mass that goes on around the world. In distinction, Easterns would not consider it communal/public unless it is physically and obviously communal/public at that particular DL.

I think this has to do with the fact that the Latins naturally focus more on the fullness of the Church in its universal aspect, whereas Easterns focus more on the fullness of the Church in its local aspect.

Comments and responses?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[jwinch2]

One thing I notice about the Latin praxis, which no one here seems to have picked up on, is that the moments of silence are communal. There are specific times when EVERYONE participates in this reverential silence. It’s not like one person can determine individualistically when to have a moment of personal prayer. That’s the big difference I notice between a Latin Catholic Mass and a Protestant service.

Very interesting point and well stated. I was going back and forth earlier with some well meaning folks on another thread who were having a very hard time understanding this for whatever reason.

One should also remember that personal prayer in Mass during these specific, liturgically-determined times of silence is never an individual work, but is always joined to the prayers of the Saints in heaven in a much deeper manner than if one were to do it outside of Mass. It is always a communal event on a level that goes beyond the physical realm. Again, this is different from the Protestant mindset which is not only personal, but also individualistic.

Again, well stated. I wish I had thought of that description earlier.

Reading quickly through the thread, I noticed someone stated these moments of silence for personal prayer in the Latin Mass is “contrary” to the Eastern mind. If the communal aspect is always maintained, how is it “contrary” to the Eastern phrenoma? I can see that moments of silence for personal reflection is a different way of expressing the communal aspect of the Liturgy, but “contrary”…?

The Latin idea of Liturgy seems to be more mystical than the Eastern, whereas the Eastern idea is more sacramental (for lack of better terms). I mean, the Latins seem more readily able to detach the communal aspect from the physical realm (hence, “mystical”), whereas the Easterns attach it greatly to the physical realm (hence, “sacramental”).

Now, that is something different. Most of the time the impression that I get is that the impression everyone has is that the Easterns are more mystical and the Latins are more legalistic. To hear the liturgy described as the Latins being more mystical is something that I did not expect.

This reminds me of the topic of “private Masses.” In the Latin phrenoma, every Mass is a public/ communal event, even if only two are present - even if, in extenuating circumstances, only the priest is present. The Mass celebrated in one specific location is always regarded as being part and parcel of every other Mass that goes on around the world. In distinction, Easterns would not consider it communal/public unless it is physically and obviously communal/public at that particular DL.

You are correct to my understanding. I believe the Council of Trent documents state that a private Mass without anyone present but the priest, are actually not private at all, but the priest is celebrating the Mass on behalf of all of the faithful and, as you stated, joined to all other Masses being celebrated around the world. Again, a very mystical approach to the liturgy, as you noted above.

I think this has to do with the fact that the Latins naturally focus more on the fullness of the Church in its universal aspect, whereas Easterns focus more on the fullness of the Church in its local aspect.

I’m not sure what to say on that one. I honestly had not considered it in that aspect before.

Comments and responses?

Blessings,
Marduk

Thanks for an insightful post.

 

[RyanBlack]

The Latin idea of Liturgy seems to be more mystical than the Eastern, whereas the Eastern idea is more sacramental (for lack of better terms). I mean, the Latins seem more readily able to detach the communal aspect from the physical realm (hence, “mystical”), whereas the Easterns attach it greatly to the physical realm (hence, “sacramental”).

I’m not so sure. In the Byzantine tradition, I think there is a balance between what you are calling the mystical and what you are calling the sacramental, and I don’t know that I agree with your assertion that Easterners (at least not of the Byzantine tradition) attach the communal aspect “greatly to the physical realm.” In a Byzantine service, there is certainly a strong sacramental aspect. The veneration of icons, the lighting of candles, the extensive use of incense all have a sacramental aspect. The distribution of antidoron and the kissing of the priest’s cross at the dismissal also have a sacramental quality. Then, there are traditions associated with particular feasts that also have a sacramental character to them, such as the blessing of fruits. All of this is certainly very tied to the physical realm, and as such, is sacramental. On the other hand, there is a strong sense that we are, in a sense, outside of time and mystically joined to the heavenly liturgy, and in the DL, there is great deal of emphasis on the saints, in particular the Theotokos. Part of that emphasis on the saints is in fact sacramental (the presence of the icons of the saints), but certainly not to the exclusion of the mystical.

 

[RyanBlack]

I think this has to do with the fact that the Latins naturally focus more on the fullness of the Church in its universal aspect, whereas Easterns focus more on the fullness of the Church in its local aspect.

Again, I’m not so sure. As someone who usually attends DL in a Byzantine Catholic parish, but who has also attended quite a few Roman Catholic Masses, and still does from time to time, I really see no less emphasis on the universal aspect at DL then I do at Mass. At DL, we offer prayers for our own parish, and weekly commemorate the parish’s founders and benefactors, but we also offer prayers at every DL for the Pope of Rome, for our own bishop, for the priesthood, the diaconate, the monastic orders, and all the people. Furthermore, there is a very strong emphasis on the saints in heaven, both in the use of icons and in the prayers of the DL itself. I don’t disagree that there is a focus on the fullnesss of the Church in its local aspect, but I see this as being balanced by the universal aspect of the Church.

 

[twf]

One thing I notice about the Latin praxis, which no one here seems to have picked up on, is that the moments of silence are communal. There are specific times when EVERYONE participates in this reverential silence. It’s not like one person can determine individualistically when to have a moment of personal prayer. That’s the big difference I notice between a Latin Catholic Mass and a Protestant service.

One should also remember that personal prayer in Mass during these specific, liturgically-determined times of silence is never an individual work, but is always joined to the prayers of the Saints in heaven in a much deeper manner than if one were to do it outside of Mass. It is always a communal event on a level that goes beyond the physical realm. Again, this is different from the Protestant mindset which is not only personal, but also individualistic.

Reading quickly through the thread, I noticed someone stated these moments of silence for personal prayer in the Latin Mass is “contrary” to the Eastern mind. If the communal aspect is always maintained, how is it “contrary” to the Eastern phrenoma? I can see that moments of silence for personal reflection is a different way of expressing the communal aspect of the Liturgy, but “contrary”…?

The Latin idea of Liturgy seems to be more mystical than the Eastern, whereas the Eastern idea is more sacramental (for lack of better terms). I mean, the Latins seem more readily able to detach the communal aspect from the physical realm (hence, “mystical”), whereas the Easterns attach it greatly to the physical realm (hence, “sacramental”).

This reminds me of the topic of “private Masses.” In the Latin phrenoma, every Mass is a public/ communal event, even if only two are present - even if, in extenuating circumstances, only the priest is present. The Mass celebrated in one specific location is always regarded as being part and parcel of every other Mass that goes on around the world. In distinction, Easterns would not consider it communal/public unless it is physically and obviously communal/public at that particular DL.

I think this has to do with the fact that the Latins naturally focus more on the fullness of the Church in its universal aspect, whereas Easterns focus more on the fullness of the Church in its local aspect.

Comments and responses?

Blessings,
Marduk

Excellent points. A friend of mine, who happens to be a Latin priest, used to work at the cathedral and thus lived in the cathedral rectory with about 6 other priests. The rectory has a private chapel in the basement for the priests’ use. 6 days a week he would celebrate holy mass in the cathedral (at one of the 4 daily or 7 Sunday masses offered), but on his day off, he would say a private mass in the rectory chapel (an Extraordinary Form Low Mass in fact). He would be the first one to assure you that while physically alone to the outside observer, he was most certainly never alone…he was always surrounded by the angels and saints as the Spirit united the sacrifice he offered in that small basement chapel with every eucharistic sacrifice offered in time and space from the Last Supper to the present.

The Extraordinary Form “High Mass” is more like the Divine Liturgy in that it is almost completely sung and extremely involved in terms of physical stimulus (incense, chant, polyphony, constant genuflections, etc). The “Low Mass”, on the other hand, highlights this mystical communal silence you speak of…only the priest speaks, and for most of the mass he does so quietly, but with the angels and saints, each individual unites his own heart to the silent prayer of the mass. The Ordinary Form can, of course, run the entire spectrum. At the same cathedral referenced above, the 11 AM Sunday mass is very involved (polyphonic choir…loud pipe organ…constant singing…all the prayers chanted…incense rising…), while the 8 PM mass is quieter and more reflective (no choir, no incense, perhaps the propers chanted but little singing otherwise).

 

[ConstantineTG]

One thing I notice about the Latin praxis, which no one here seems to have picked up on, is that the moments of silence are communal. There are specific times when EVERYONE participates in this reverential silence. It’s not like one person can determine individualistically when to have a moment of personal prayer. That’s the big difference I notice between a Latin Catholic Mass and a Protestant service.

One should also remember that personal prayer in Mass during these specific, liturgically-determined times of silence is never an individual work, but is always joined to the prayers of the Saints in heaven in a much deeper manner than if one were to do it outside of Mass. It is always a communal event on a level that goes beyond the physical realm. Again, this is different from the Protestant mindset which is not only personal, but also individualistic.

Reading quickly through the thread, I noticed someone stated these moments of silence for personal prayer in the Latin Mass is “contrary” to the Eastern mind. If the communal aspect is always maintained, how is it “contrary” to the Eastern phrenoma? I can see that moments of silence for personal reflection is a different way of expressing the communal aspect of the Liturgy, but “contrary”…?

The Latin idea of Liturgy seems to be more mystical than the Eastern, whereas the Eastern idea is more sacramental (for lack of better terms). I mean, the Latins seem more readily able to detach the communal aspect from the physical realm (hence, “mystical”), whereas the Easterns attach it greatly to the physical realm (hence, “sacramental”).

This reminds me of the topic of “private Masses.” In the Latin phrenoma, every Mass is a public/ communal event, even if only two are present - even if, in extenuating circumstances, only the priest is present. The Mass celebrated in one specific location is always regarded as being part and parcel of every other Mass that goes on around the world. In distinction, Easterns would not consider it communal/public unless it is physically and obviously communal/public at that particular DL.

I think this has to do with the fact that the Latins naturally focus more on the fullness of the Church in its universal aspect, whereas Easterns focus more on the fullness of the Church in its local aspect.

Comments and responses?

Blessings,
Marduk

I fail to see your analogy. Being silent at the same time whilst each individual is praying his or her own prayer is no less communal than everyone trying to kill each other at the same time. I mean, not just because they are being quiet together means it is communal. The focus of prayer is personal, so it is not communal even if they do it together. As I mentioned, St. Luke likes to use the word “homothumadon” to describe the Christians as well as concerted efforts against the Christians. If people are focused on individual prayer at the same time, it is not “homothumadon”. People are not of one mind. People of one mind must not only be doing the same thing, their minds (obviously) are focused on the same thing. That is why it is essential that prayer and song is exactly the same for all gathered. And this is actually more universal than local because the prayers of the Liturgy are standard. For example, in comparison to the OF, there is only one Anaphora. All Litanies are fixed, there is no do-it-yourself “prayers of the people”. So all people, everywhere doing the same Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, are guaranteed to be praying at least 95% of the same thing everytime (there can be special intentions inserted, but the fixed prayers remains).

 

[mardukm]

I fail to see your analogy. Being silent at the same time whilst each individual is praying his or her own prayer is no less communal than everyone trying to kill each other at the same time. I mean, not just because they are being quiet together means it is communal. The focus of prayer is personal, so it is not communal even if they do it together.

I think you are confusing moments of silence for reverence (even reflection) with moments of silence for prayer. AFAIK, the only time anyone is supposed to have time for their own personal prayer is when intentions are offered up after the Creed.

As I mentioned, St. Luke likes to use the word “homothumadon” to describe the Christians as well as concerted efforts against the Christians. If people are focused on individual prayer at the same time, it is not “homothumadon”. People are not of one mind. People of one mind must not only be doing the same thing, their minds (obviously) are focused on the same thing.

Sure, during moments of silence when the Eucharist is being reverenced, everyone is directed to have their minds on the Eucharist. There are other moments of silence for reverence and reflection when the specific object of reverence or reflection is given. Don’t see why people can’t have one mind in silence. Brother Constantine, you make DL sound like a police state, sorry to say. Not very attractive.

That is why it is essential that prayer and song is exactly the same for all gathered. And this is actually more universal than local because the prayers of the Liturgy are standard. For example, in comparison to the OF, there is only one Anaphora. All Litanies are fixed, there is no do-it-yourself “prayers of the people”. So all people, everywhere doing the same Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, are guaranteed to be praying at least 95% of the same thing everytime (there can be special intentions inserted, but the fixed prayers remains).

That’s the attraction many Protestants have for Liturgy, whether Latin, Eastern, or Oriental.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[jwinch2]

I fail to see your analogy. Being silent at the same time whilst each individual is praying his or her own prayer is no less communal than everyone trying to kill each other at the same time. I mean, not just because they are being quiet together means it is communal. The focus of prayer is personal, so it is not communal even if they do it together. As I mentioned, St. Luke likes to use the word “homothumadon” to describe the Christians as well as concerted efforts against the Christians. If people are focused on individual prayer at the same time, it is not “homothumadon”. People are not of one mind. People of one mind must not only be doing the same thing, their minds (obviously) are focused on the same thing. That is why it is essential that prayer and song is exactly the same for all gathered. And this is actually more universal than local because the prayers of the Liturgy are standard. For example, in comparison to the OF, there is only one Anaphora. All Litanies are fixed, there is no do-it-yourself “prayers of the people”. So all people, everywhere doing the same Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, are guaranteed to be praying at least 95% of the same thing everytime (there can be special intentions inserted, but the fixed prayers remains).

Pope Benedict states that silence is an integral part of the liturgy and is a necessary thing for full and active participation. First of all, it is not necessarily supposed to be time for personal prayer as much as time for listening to God. Surely listening is something we can do communally? In addition, there is silence which is supposed to be in the liturgy at specific times (prior to the penitential rite, after the readings and the homily, post communion) and all parishioners during that time are to be focused on those things so that even in silence they are contemplating the same things together, but since they are silent, they are open to what God wishes to tell them.

I’m not sure what to say about the universal/local comments. As I stated earlier, that is not something which crossed my mind previously.

Peace,

 

[ConstantineTG]

Pope Benedict states that silence is an integral part of the liturgy and is a necessary thing for full and active participation. First of all, it is not necessarily supposed to be time for personal prayer as much as time for listening to God. Surely listening is something we can do communally? In addition, there is silence which is supposed to be in the liturgy at specific times (prior to the penitential rite, after the readings and the homily, post communion) and all parishioners during that time are to be focused on those things so that even in silence they are contemplating the same things together, but since they are silent, they are open to what God wishes to tell them.

I’m not sure what to say about the universal/local comments. As I stated earlier, that is not something which crossed my mind previously.

Peace,

That is not the Eastern praxis. That is why we have hesychasm where people repeatedly pray (usually the Jesus Prayer) even in silence as monks do. Just shutting people up and hoping they are all focused on the same thing is a pretty tall order. I guess you can say the Eastern Fathers have figured out that if you don’t give people something to do, they’d each do their own thing.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think you are confusing moments of silence for reverence (even reflection) with moments of silence for prayer. AFAIK, the only time anyone is supposed to have time for their own personal prayer is when intentions are offered up after the Creed.

No matter how you categorize it, it is the same thing. Unless people are focused on the same exact thing, like praying the Jesus Prayer in silence together, people will never be “of one mind”, thus it is not a communal thing. The praxis of the East demands that from the physical to the heart to the mind is all focused on the same thing. Just because people are all silent, doesn’t mean they are doing the exact same thing.

Sure, during moments of silence when the Eucharist is being reverenced, everyone is directed to have their minds on the Eucharist. There are other moments of silence for reverence and reflection when the specific object of reverence or reflection is given. Don’t see why people can’t have one mind in silence. Brother Constantine, you make DL sound like a police state, sorry to say. Not very attractive.

If the police state is the Kingdom of God, then why not? That is what the Divine Liturgy is anyway, bringing us to the Kingdom of God. I do not mind a police state where the ruler is the King of kings. You are forgetting that one thing. Our own personal desires are secondary to the communion in the Kingdom. That is why we sing during Liturgy, “lay aside all earthly cares.” To lay in silence and think about your earthly cares like personal prayers for personal petitions is contrary to that.

That’s the attraction many Protestants have for Liturgy, whether Latin, Eastern, or Oriental.

What? Getting personal petitions up? That is contrary to the purpose of communal gathering, unless the petition is publicly announces (as in the special petitions part of the Litany) and everyone prays for you together. You can pray for your personal petitions at home or outside of Liturgy. During Liturgy is a gathering of people to do everything together.

 

[englishredrose]

I think I have always assumed that private prayer is not something we do when we are worshipping God in a community per se as at church.

But recently my priest has taught me a a little about this time in Communion. In the choir I am singing so hadn’t been an issue with me. But when I am serving my mind has tended to just unhealthily drift.

Some of the church wanted this part to be total silence which the Priest was willing to give it a go for them. I instantly dreaded it even more because I genuinely don’t do silence. Having been thrown into a retreat as such and well. But through my own solution I came up with reading at this time. It the best own idea I had because since reading I have been able to relax and let God speak to me rather than drift of in my own world per se. The priest rather thankfully agreed to it (as I wouldn’t have read if he had said no-honestly) and also said I can read anything so long as I relax and let God speak to me at this time. This is a far better way of handling this time in Communion than I have been doing so in the past.

But again, I still think it hard when people want to kind of do their own thing when its a joint service? If everyone literally did their own thing where would we be in that hour? Some want silence so they get a period of silence, some want music so they get that. etc Surely its not really about what we want but the time we offer praise and worship to God. any personl reflection can be done before and after any service anywhere?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think I have always assumed that private prayer is not something we do when we are worshipping God in a community per se as at church.

But recently my priest has taught me a a little about this time in Communion. In the choir I am singing so hadn’t been an issue with me. But when I am serving my mind has tended to just unhealthily drift.

Some of the church wanted this part to be total silence which the Priest was willing to give it a go for them. I instantly dreaded it even more because I genuinely don’t do silence. Having been thrown into a retreat as such and well. But through my own solution I came up with reading at this time. It the best own idea I had because since reading I have been able to relax and let God speak to me rather than drift of in my own world per se. The priest rather thankfully agreed to it (as I wouldn’t have read if he had said no-honestly) and also said I can read anything so long as I relax and let God speak to me at this time. This is a far better way of handling this time in Communion than I have been doing so in the past.

But again, I still think it hard when people want to kind of do their own thing when its a joint service? If everyone literally did their own thing where would we be in that hour? Some want silence so they get a period of silence, some want music so they get that. etc Surely its not really about what we want but the time we offer praise and worship to God. any personl reflection can be done before and after any service anywhere?

Agreed, the time for Liturgy is the time for everyone together. There are other hours of the day when one can communicate with God to say their own petitions. In fact, we can insert special intentions during Liturgy, but again the point is to have everyone pray for that same intention, even if it is one person asking for something personal. It is still the community coming together and asking as one body. Being one body means we are in unison, being one towards one goal, that is the Kingdom of God. Each person doing their own thing while everyone gathers as one body is like the left leg trying to run while the right leg is trying to walk, and the hands are trying to scratch the feet, all at the same time.