Is there quiet time in a Divine Liturgy for personal reflection?

[CDB1718]

I’ll just think about it with a lowercase “o”.

My wife and I haven’t had the opportunity to attend a DL yet, but we are planning to soon. There is what appears to be a very vibrant community in the DFW Metro, that we would like to try. stsophiaukrainian.cc/

The last time we were down there for Mass, we went to an Anglican Use parish to give that a go but we are hoping to attend a DL soon.

The website doesn’t say what language the Liturgy is in. Is it assumed to be in English?

Some books would have the “O” in lowercase. In any case, even the Orthodox Church wouldn’t say that the word “orthodox” in the Liturgy denotes denominational lines. It literally means “Christians who follow the true faith”.

I’ve been ill and not maintaining our website as well as I would like. I started a visitor section with this information on it. I need to make it more accessible.

StSophiaUkrainian.cc/resources/WhatShouldIExpect/

We say Orthodox Christians. The homilies are good, too.

 

[jwinch2]

I’ve been ill and not maintaining our website as well as I would like. I started a visitor section with this information on it. I need to make it more accessible.

StSophiaUkrainian.cc/resources/WhatShouldIExpect/

We say Orthodox Christians. The homilies are good, too.

Thanks! I hope you are feeling better.

 

[CDB1718]

Thanks! I hope you are feeling better.

Thanks! We look forward to welcoming you!

 

[ConstantineTG]

thus it is currently translated in the ruthenian church as “all you christians of the true faith”.

is outrage!

 

[ConstantineTG]

I see. So you interpret unity of mind as complete uniformity of thought? That seems just a bit legalistic to me, brother. That’s why I made the comment earlier that you are making the DL seem like a police state.

I interpret unity of mind to refer to uniformity in intention and purpose. Using the example of thanksgiving I gave in an earlier post, Copts are directed to give thanksgiving in heart and soul for anything that we have to be thankful for during the Eucharistic Liturgy. One person will be thankful for one thing in their mind, another person will be thankful for another thing, and another person…etc. But all come together with a mind of thanksgiving. There is not uniformity of thought, but there is uniformity in intention and purpose.

Again, during the prayer of the congregation, each person will have different needs on their mind that they express silently to the Lord, but all are in a communal and common attitude of supplication to our Lord. There is no uniformity of thought, but there is uniformity in intention and purpose.

The examples could be multiplied.

Blessings,
Marduk

:

Of course. If you, in your mind, are praying for a new job, and I am praying for the health of family members who are sick, how are we in agreement? How is that unison of mind and purpose? Sure we’re praying, but for different things. Not that it is a bad thing, it is just contrary to the point of gathering and being one if our minds are heading off in different directions. As St. Luke demonstrates in Acts, whether those in the Christian movement or those opposed to them, “homothumadon” applies to those who band together in agreement of the same thing and do the same thing. So whether it is the Apostles jointly proclaiming the Gospel, or a band of zealots putting themselves under curse until they have killed St. Paul, it is a unison of mind and body.

Let me ask a question. Have you ever found yourself singing or doing a response but thinking about something else at the same time, like you were there, but not really there? I know I have. In cases like that, even though you are subconsciously participating in the same outward actions, you are consciously somewhere else. In the language of the Church we might say that someone doing that in the Mass is not in a state of full, active, and conscious participation. Do you honestly think that does not happen in the Mass or the Divine Liturgy when people are doing things that they have done hundreds or thousands of times before?

Now, lets take the converse scenario. Have you ever been with a family member, close friend, etc. where there was outward silence, but you were totally on the same page and thinking about the same things? It happens to me frequently. Now, if you extrapolate that to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, people can be silent, but focused on the same things, uniting their prayers to those of the saints and angels or simply listening together, in silence, to what God wishes to tell them.

To me, outward silence does not preclude communal action anymore than outward action implies it.

I have ADD, your scenario is pretty much what I deal with every minute and every second of my life. Which is perhaps why I have a different appreciation of this then you normal people. I know what it is to be in church, or to be in a meeting room, or be anywhere, and my mind is off doing something else. Again, being in Church is for unity of purpose. This is why we pray to the saints. Because the saints are in full communion with Christ, they share the throughts and prayers intimately and thus what we raised to the saints are raised to Christ as well.

And so what if someone else is not going off doing or thinking differently? That doesn’t mean it should validate that action. I’m just saying, the purpose in Divine Liturgy of constant communal prayers and hymns is to sync up everyone to the same thought. Remember, our goal is Theosis, which is participation in the life of God which includes the mind of God.

 

[jwinch2]

I have ADD, your scenario is pretty much what I deal with every minute and every second of my life. Which is perhaps why I have a different appreciation of this then you normal people.

So do I. I’ve been fighting it my whole life and it still impacts me significantly to this day. Its one of the reasons I have come to appreciate silence so much, which brings me back to my questions above. Does outward action equal conscious participation as a community, and does outward inaction equal non-participation as a community? I would suggest that the variables are not joined in that way.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So do I. I’ve been fighting it my whole life and it still impacts me significantly to this day. Its one of the reasons I have come to appreciate silence so much, which brings me back to my questions above. Does outward action equal conscious participation as a community, and does outward inaction equal non-participation as a community? I would suggest that the variables are not joined in that way.

Actually, yes. Such is the concept presented by hesychasm. The Jesus Prayer is a great example where we start out by praying outwardly, through our lips and our words and even in our actions (some would include prostrations during the prayer, as well as timing your prayer with your breathing). What ADD has taught me is that you can’t just instantly focus your mind on something at will. Everything requires practice, and you can see this in sports. You can’t just think about, say basketball, then pick up a ball and be great. There’s practice, there’s the mental preparation, there’s everything. Prayer life is the same way. We eat right (fasting), we do the physical motions, we do the mental aspect. Everything works together because as human beings, that is what we are. We are not purely physical beings, we are not purely spiritual beings (including mental), we are both. So both must be done in unison. And we communicate with each other through physical means, and we communicate to God through spiritual means. But we need to unite physical and mental, uniting us with other people, with ourselves, and with God.

 

[jwinch2]

Actually, yes. Such is the concept presented by hesychasm. The Jesus Prayer is a great example where we start out by praying outwardly, through our lips and our words and even in our actions (some would include prostrations during the prayer, as well as timing your prayer with your breathing).

Yes, it can be that way, but it also can be another way. It would be entirely possible to pray the Jesus prayer in proper manner outwardly but inwardly we are thinking of something else entirely. Outward action does not always lead to inner focus. Lack of outward action, does not prevent inner focus.

ConstantineTG:

There’s practice, there’s the mental preparation, there’s everything. Prayer life is the same way. We eat right (fasting), we do the physical motions, we do the mental aspect. Everything works together because as human beings, that is what we are. We are not purely physical beings, we are not purely spiritual beings (including mental), we are both. So both must be done in unison. And we communicate with each other through physical means, and we communicate to God through spiritual means. But we need to unite physical and mental, uniting us with other people, with ourselves, and with God.

Exactly. This is why I love quote I presented above so much about how the moments of silence in the Mass allow us to focus on and to prepare to participate fully in other parts of the liturgy.

This form of interior silence does not impede, and indeed favors, full and active participation in those parts of the celebration where the community is united in acclamation and song, for each person is more fully aware of what he or she is doing.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, it can be that way, but it also can be another way. It would be entirely possible to pray the Jesus prayer in proper manner outwardly but inwardly we are thinking of something else entirely. Outward action does not always lead to inner focus. Lack of outward action, does not prevent inner focus.[/qutoe]

Definitely. But the goal of the Jesus Prayer is to get the praying into you inwardly, that you become the prayer. That you do not need to say it or even motion it, your very being becomes the prayer. But that cannot be accomplished without starting with the outward things, such as holding a prayer rope and mouthing the words. That is why they describe it in stages, one is prayer of the lips, when you just speak the words of the prayer. The second is mental prayer, when the prayer is in your mind. And third is prayer of the heart. But you don’t get to the third level without going through the first. The same concept is applied in Liturgy. Because you are gathered, you need to externally do the same things so that one day you may be united internally.

And to be completely honest, I struggle even with the first level. It is hard.
jwinch2;9858857:

Exactly. This is why I love quote I presented above so much about how the moments of silence in the Mass allow us to focus on and to prepare to participate fully in other parts of the liturgy.

Preparation for the Liturgy in the Eastern praxis is done outside of Liturgy. Starts with Vespers, then there are prayers at home, then Matins.

 

[mardukm]

Of course. If you, in your mind, are praying for a new job, and I am praying for the health of family members who are sick, how are we in agreement? How is that unison of mind and purpose?

It becomes united in the mind of the Spirit, who searches our hearts/minds/souls. and is the one moving us to bring our needs before God. I notice you are especially critical of individual, silent prayers of supplication. Are you just as critical of individual, silent prayers of thanksgiving throughout Eucharistic Liturgy? Are you just as critical when during certain moments of contrition, each person will think of their own individual failings?

Sure we’re praying, but for different things. Not that it is a bad thing, it is just contrary to the point of gathering and being one if our minds are heading off in different directions.

But our minds are not heading off in different directions from the perspective of the Spirit. The minds are one in a spirit of supplication, or of thanksgiving, or of sorrow, or of joy, etc., etc. etc., at particular times, even though each person has different thoughts that reflect that appropriate spirit. Here’s a specific example. During the prayer of the congregation, the priest prays for the needs of our leaders. So one person thinks about the mayor. Another person thinks about the President. Another person thinks about the Senator. All different thoughts, but all united in the same spirit of the moment. It’s the same thing. When the moment comes when we are to pray for our personal needs, each person will have a different need in mind, but they are all united in the same spirit of the moment, even if they are silently praying for different needs. As stated, our prayers are all united by the Spirit during the Liturgy.

As St. Luke demonstrates in Acts, whether those in the Christian movement or those opposed to them, “homothumadon” applies to those who band together in agreement of the same thing and do the same thing.

Yes, during specific times, we are all united in a spirit of supplication, or sorrow, or thanksgiving. Though each person may be thinking about a different need, a different sin, and different event to be thankful for, etc., each person is united in the spirit of the moment, and the Spirit unites all these different prayers as the prayers of the one mystical body of Christ.

So whether it is the Apostles jointly proclaiming the Gospel, or a band of zealots putting themselves under curse until they have killed St. Paul, it is a unison of mind and body.

But surely the Apostles when they proclaimed the Gospel were all not using the same words at the same time. When people were intent on killing Paul, surely not all were of the same mind on how to do it. This example brings you closer to what I’ve been proposing.

I have ADD, your scenario is pretty much what I deal with every minute and every second of my life. Which is perhaps why I have a different appreciation of this then you normal people. I know what it is to be in church, or to be in a meeting room, or be anywhere, and my mind is off doing something else.

Well, that explains it.

Again, being in Church is for unity of purpose.

Exactly, but common purpose need not be constrained by uniformity of thought. But uniformity of action is required in Liturgy, which is why the moments of silence are prescribed only at certain times, and no one is free to just do anything they want at any time.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[twf]

It becomes united in the mind of the Spirit, who searches our hearts/minds/souls. and is the one moving us to bring our needs before God. I notice you are especially critical of individual, silent prayers of supplication. Are you just as critical of individual, silent prayers of thanksgiving throughout Eucharistic Liturgy? Are you just as critical when during certain moments of contrition, each person will think of their own individual failings?
…

Marduk

This brings to mind the words of the Apostle: In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. (Romans 8:26).
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and in fact the Church’s entire liturgy, is prayed to the Father, through the Son, and in the Spirit…the Spirit truly unites and perfects the Church’s offering regardless of where the individual thoughts of mortal men may stray.

 

[mardukm]

This brings to mind the words of the Apostle: In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. (Romans 8:26).
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and in fact the Church’s entire liturgy, is prayed to the Father, through the Son, and in the Spirit…the Spirit truly unites and perfects the Church’s offering regardless of where the individual thoughts of mortal men may stray.

Blessings

 

[jwinch2]

This brings to mind the words of the Apostle: In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. (Romans 8:26).
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and in fact the Church’s entire liturgy, is prayed to the Father, through the Son, and in the Spirit…the Spirit truly unites and perfects the Church’s offering regardless of where the individual thoughts of mortal men may stray.

Well put.

Peace,

 

[ConstantineTG]

It becomes united in the mind of the Spirit, who searches our hearts/minds/souls. and is the one moving us to bring our needs before God. I notice you are especially critical of individual, silent prayers of supplication. Are you just as critical of individual, silent prayers of thanksgiving throughout Eucharistic Liturgy? Are you just as critical when during certain moments of contrition, each person will think of their own individual failings?

Like I said, the time for individuality is not in our Liturgy. There are no pauses for us to think of our individual sins. That all goes into the preparation before Liturgy, not during. Unlike the Latin Church which did away the general use of Vespers and Matins (which now is common only in religious communities and circles), that is still very much part of the Byzantine ethos and all feeds into one big act of prayer that brings one to the Kingdom of God through receiving Christ in the Eucharist. The Liturgy is not a time of contrition, that is why we do not kneel. It is expected that these things are done by the time Divine Liturgy starts.

In my Anthology book there are prayers in preparation for receiving Communion to be prayed the night before and on the morning prior to Divine Liturgy. This is the individual prayer and includes the moments of contrition, and this is besides Vespers and Matins. It is a lengthy prayer, I tried praying it once 10mins prior to Liturgy and I was not done by the time Father started.

But our minds are not heading off in different directions from the perspective of the Spirit. The minds are one in a spirit of supplication, or of thanksgiving, or of sorrow, or of joy, etc., etc. etc., at particular times, even though each person has different thoughts that reflect that appropriate spirit. Here’s a specific example. During the prayer of the congregation, the priest prays for the needs of our leaders. So one person thinks about the mayor. Another person thinks about the President. Another person thinks about the Senator. All different thoughts, but all united in the same spirit of the moment. It’s the same thing. When the moment comes when we are to pray for our personal needs, each person will have a different need in mind, but they are all united in the same spirit of the moment, even if they are silently praying for different needs. As stated, our prayers are all united by the Spirit during the Liturgy.

Nope, in the Divine Liturgy it is clear whom the prayer is directed. In fact in Orthodox parishes (and possibly some ECs but we never do it in the UGCC) the Head of State is mentioned by name during the Great Litany. In our case it is Queen Elizabeth II. Of course this goes back to the time when the Holy Roman (Byzantine) Emperor was prayed for in the Liturgy. See, the Byzantine praxis is very personal, everything is done by name. Even when we are given Communion we are addressed by name by the priest. That is why in some parishes you would need to say your name right before receiving, so the priest can say your name with the prayer. Every Sacrament is by name and in the Liturgy, while there are prayers addressed in general, we try our best to always specifically mention who and by name.

Yes, during specific times, we are all united in a spirit of supplication, or sorrow, or thanksgiving. Though each person may be thinking about a different need, a different sin, and different event to be thankful for, etc., each person is united in the spirit of the moment, and the Spirit unites all these different prayers as the prayers of the one mystical body of Christ.

That is fine, but that is not the purpose of the Divine Liturgy. It is not a general prayer for people to give their individual thanks or raise their individual petitions. It is a time for everyone to become one body, through communion, and be in the Kingdom of God as one body.

But surely the Apostles when they proclaimed the Gospel were all not using the same words at the same time.

No. At Pentecost they proclaimed the same Gospel in many different languages at the same time, but it was the same Gospel.

When people were intent on killing Paul, surely not all were of the same mind on how to do it. This example brings you closer to what I’ve been proposing.

No, they were. I suggest reading Acts. Whenever Luke uses “homothumadon”, people were intent on doing the same exact thing, the same exact way. Whether it was a crowd coming to stone Paul, or the 40 Assassins who under curse (anathema) swore never to eat nor drink until they have killed Paul.

Well, that explains it.

Exactly, but common purpose need not be constrained by uniformity of thought. But uniformity of action is required in Liturgy, which is why the moments of silence are prescribed only at certain times, and no one is free to just do anything they want at any time.

Blessings,
Marduk

Of course it is. That is the objective of Theosis. To be of the mind of God. We need to unite ourselves and our minds to God. Is there more than one God? No. Therefore there is no more than one thought of God.

 

[mardukm]

Like I said, the time for individuality is not in our Liturgy. There are no pauses for us to think of our individual sins.

In the Coptic Mass, we have Prayers of Absolution where we are expected to call to mind silently our sins in a spirit of contrition.

Nope, in the Divine Liturgy it is clear whom the prayer is directed. In fact in Orthodox parishes (and possibly some ECs but we never do it in the UGCC) the Head of State is mentioned by name during the Great Litany. In our case it is Queen Elizabeth II.

Interesting. In the Coptic Mass, as well as the Laitn Mass, we pray not just for our head of state, but all his counsellors and other leaders, and we don’t mention them all by name. So your DL only prays for the head of state?

I guess your point also applies to the part in the Litany when we pray for the sick? That moment will surely bring to mind different people for each person. In the Coptic Liturgy, we also pray for our neighbors, which, again, brings to mind different people for each person. These would be acts of disunity according to you, but since you stated there is no opportunity for individual thought in the Byzantine DL, then I suppose there is no mention of the sick or your neighbors in your Litany? I’m not being facetious, but this is a real question, because the way you describe your DL makes it seem like there would be no place for a general prayer for the sick or your neighbors as that would breed individual thought. And how about prayers for the general welfare of the country or the Church? Would these have a place in the Byzantine DL, since these would surely bring to mind individual thoughts for each person?

That is fine, but that is not the purpose of the Divine Liturgy. It is not a general prayer for people to give their individual thanks or raise their individual petitions. It is a time for everyone to become one body, through communion, and be in the Kingdom of God as one body.

Well, obviously not in your DL. It is different in other Traditions.

No. At Pentecost they proclaimed the same Gospel in many different languages at the same time, but it was the same Gospel.

But they were not using the same words. There was a large crowd, and the Apostles were probably preaching to specific sections of the crowd. Like I said, this example is closer to what I have been proposing than your own pov.

No, they were. I suggest reading Acts. Whenever Luke uses “homothumadon”, people were intent on doing the same exact thing, the same exact way. Whether it was a crowd coming to stone Paul, or the 40 Assassins who under curse (anathema) swore never to eat nor drink until they have killed Paul.

Paul was in danger of being killed several times in Acts. Each group was of one PURPOSE (to kill Paul), but it would be highly unlikely that, for example, in the group of 40 assassins, everyone would conceive of killing Paul in the same way.

Of course it is. That is the objective of Theosis. To be of the mind of God. We need to unite ourselves and our minds to God. Is there more than one God? No. Therefore there is no more than one thought of God.

My mind can be on God thinking about Matthew 5. My sister’s mind can be on God while thinking about how to forgive her husband. My friend’s mind can be on God thinking about how much money to put in the collection box. Like I said, unity of mind or purpose need not be constrained by uniformity of thought.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Does a Byzantine DL have sections where the priest does inaudible prayers? If there are such times, what is the Byzantine mind supposed to do during those times. According to brother ConstantineTG, there must be uniformity of thought. How is this achieved (I mean, if there are indeed times of inaudible prayers by the priest)?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[andrewstx]

Does a Byzantine DL have sections where the priest does inaudible prayers? If there are such times, what is the Byzantine mind supposed to do during those times. According to brother ConstantineTG, there must be uniformity of thought. How is this achieved (I mean, if there are indeed times of inaudible prayers by the priest)?

Blessings,
Marduk

In the Orthodox church there are inaudible prayers, but that is covered by singing. Even in the Anaphora you basically hear “this is my body” and “this is my blood” the rest is covered by the choir.

There is no Byzantine or Eastern Catholic church for 100s of miles, otherwise I would be there.

 

[babochka]

is outrage!

Agreed, but that’s a whole other thread.

 

[ConstantineTG]

In the Coptic Mass, we have Prayers of Absolution where we are expected to call to mind silently our sins in a spirit of contrition.

There is no such pause in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom nor St. Basil’s. Even a pause for “pray for your personal intentions.” Like I said, everything is communal.

Interesting. In the Coptic Mass, as well as the Laitn Mass, we pray not just for our head of state, but all his counsellors and other leaders, and we don’t mention them all by name. So your DL only prays for the head of state?

No. Here is the sample text from an Orthodox website, ours is similar with a slight variation in the translation. Not sure if other sui juris have used a different translation:

Deacon:
For our country, the president, and all those in public service, let us pray to the Lord.
People:
Lord, have mercy.
Deacon:
For this parish and city, for every city and country, and for the faithful who live in them, let us pray to the Lord.
People:
Lord, have mercy.

And then later on:

Priest:
Furthermore we pray for this country, its ruler, (title and name of the ruler), its people, civil authorities and armed forces.
People:
Lord, have mercy. (three times)

I guess your point also applies to the part in the Litany when we pray for the sick? That moment will surely bring to mind different people for each person. In the Coptic Liturgy, we also pray for our neighbors, which, again, brings to mind different people for each person.

Our prayers are either directed for someone specific or a general group of people. So when we pray for the sick we pray for all the sick, not just those who each individual in the congregation thinks of.

Deacon:
For travelers by land, sea, and air, for the sick, the suffering, the captives, and for their salvation, let us pray to the Lord.
People:
Lord, have mercy.

If we insert petitions for specific people, like members of the parish who are sick, then the intention is that all present pray together for that person.

These would be acts of disunity according to you, but since you stated there is no opportunity for individual thought in the Byzantine DL, then I suppose there is no mention of the sick or your neighbors in your Litany? I’m not being facetious, but this is a real question, because the way you describe your DL makes it seem like there would be no place for a general prayer for the sick or your neighbors as that would breed individual thought.

As noted above, we pray for ALL the sick. Why just your neighbor or that guy you worked with? What about those in the slums of 3rd world countries? My bishop also always inserts a special intention “for those who have no one to pray for them.”

And how about prayers for the general welfare of the country or the Church? Would these have a place in the Byzantine DL, since these would surely bring to mind individual thoughts for each person?

Everything is pretty much covered in the numerous Litanies we have. One of the first petitions recited by the Deacon (or Priest) is:

Deacon:
For peace of the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all, let us pray to the Lord.
People:
Lord, have mercy.

Well, obviously not in your DL. It is different in other Traditions.

Of course, I only speak for the Byzantine praxis.

But they were not using the same words. There was a large crowd, and the Apostles were probably preaching to specific sections of the crowd. Like I said, this example is closer to what I have been proposing than your own pov.

We can only guess what exactly is said, but by the account of St. Luke they proclaimed the same thing at least in general thought.

Paul was in danger of being killed several times in Acts. Each group was of one PURPOSE (to kill Paul), but it would be highly unlikely that, for example, in the group of 40 assassins, everyone would conceive of killing Paul in the same way.

You have to look at where Luke uses “homothumadon”. Yes, you are correct that in some cases people wanted to just tear him to bits. The first homothumadon, everyone wanted to stone him, as is the Levitical Law against blasphemers. The second homothumadon was against the assassins who do kill one say, stealthily by coming up to the person and stabbing them. I forgot what their group was called, but they were Jewish zealot assassins who would sneak into crowds, stab Romans, and then disappear into the crowd. If I am not mistaken, Barabas was one such person.

My mind can be on God thinking about Matthew 5. My sister’s mind can be on God while thinking about how to forgive her husband. My friend’s mind can be on God thinking about how much money to put in the collection box. Like I said, unity of mind or purpose need not be constrained by uniformity of thought.

Uniformity of thought leads to unity of mind.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Does a Byzantine DL have sections where the priest does inaudible prayers? If there are such times, what is the Byzantine mind supposed to do during those times. According to brother ConstantineTG, there must be uniformity of thought. How is this achieved (I mean, if there are indeed times of inaudible prayers by the priest)?

Blessings,
Marduk

Either the deacon should be leading the Litanies or the cantor leading a hymn. There’s really a lot of things given for the congregation to do during a Divine Liturgy. The only time that you are really given a “break” is during the Homily.