Is there salvation outside the Catholic church?

[Danno2281]

But excommunication involves, typically, leading others away from the faith. The reason to separate that person from the Church is so that others are not decieved into thinking that the heresy that is espoused by the heretic is somehow condoned by the church. And I believe that ignorance is never an excuse for getting excommunicated for heresy because prior to the excommunication, the error is explained to the heretic. If the heretic accepts the correction and recants, he will remain in the body of Christ. On the other hand, if he still holds to his errant viewpoint, the Church has no option but to separate him from the flock through excommunication. And rehabilitation, requires recanting and formal acceptance back into the church by the Pope.

Mortal sin is much different. yes, it separates us from God and will keep us from salvation if we are not reconciled. But reconciliation can be done through the sacrament of reconciliation and doesn’t require Papal involvement…

We are getting off topic except as excommunication puts one outside the Church, so let’s be careful.
These considerations began with my response to the statement that those practicing birth control might be excommunicated, which response stated that although different from canonical excommunication, mortal sin was itself a form of excommunication. Some observations:
Excommunication need not involve the Pope unless he has reserved to right to rescind to his office. Mortal sin requires the action (grace) of a Power Greater Than the Pope to be rescinded. We take much for granted in our sacraments, neglecting to recognize at times that they are gifts of Christ to His Church, not rights that we are entited to. One in mortal sin has died to the life of grace, and must be brought back to life. This is not a casual matter, Only a successor to the Apostles can absolve one who has so fully repented that he promises to do his best to live a life of grace, but the successors usually delegate this faculty to the priests who assist them in pastoring. This is a matter of bringing the dead back to life. One excommunicated might be a mental defective whose judgment is so impaired that what is obvious to others remains hidden to his ailing mind, even though he shows no outward appearance of such illness. No such loophole exists for genuine mortal sin.

 

[catholic_daddy]

I believe in keeping things simple, that God would want issues discussed simply for all to understand.

I believe God is Love and God is forgiving. Jesus said that we are to be forgiving and to not judge, which is exactly what some of you are doing here.

If a Pope truly believed that there is forgiveness outside of the Catholic Church, then he would have pronounced ex-cathedra.

For me to feel and believe the way I think God wants me to be, I need to leave the Catholic Church, which will be difficult. I can’t remain in a church that is so stifling. If a woman thinks she has had a calling to become a priest, she is told she can’t even discuss it or am I thinking about priests marrying, either way…(What is wrong with discussion?). The Catholic Church is now accepting Protestant married ministers to become priests.

This discussion is going around in circles. I wonder if anyone’s mind has been changed (either way) from when they first signed on in January?

And as ‘napad’ has been asking:

“So have we reach a conclusion? Is there salvation outside the Church?”

The conclusion, it should seem, is: What Does The Catholic Church teach? Does a Catholic have to believe in everything that it teaches? For those women who take birth control and the church teaches that you shouldn’t, should they be excommunicated? Why have the rules if they are allowed to be broken?

If you think about it, it is a bizarre question. Paul said “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”. Where is the RCC mentioned there? Maybe it is in what he said to the Philippian jailer when he asked Paul how to be saved…“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”. No, no RCC there either. So I guess that would make the answer…“Yes” !!!

 

[Danno2281]

If you think about it, it is a bizarre question. Paul said “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”. Where is the RCC mentioned there? Maybe it is in what he said to the Philippian jailer when he asked Paul how to be saved…“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”. No, no RCC there either. So I guess that would make the answer…“Yes” !!!

You failed to look at the previous posts where this was dealt with. Jesus founded a Church that is intimately united to Him so much so that the Church IS Christ. He told His Apostles “Who hears you hears Me, who rejects you rejects Me, and who rejects Me rejects Him Who sent Me” (Lk ;10:16). What the Church teaches, Christ teaches. See also MT:16:18, ff.

 

[Benadam]

Jesus taught there is only one gate. Pope JPII teaches that bonds between persons is what structures heaven. I think if the bond between persons is included in the view when one imagines the conduit of Christ’s Salvation on earth what is meant by ‘no salvation outside the church’ becomes easier to understand.

 

[Cara_Serrano]

I wish we could prove definitively that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. The everybody who wanted to be saved would join us and become Catholic!

Note to non-Catholics: please don’t send me a lot of nasty, vicious emails about this. It was just wishful thinking on my part. I finished reading Jesus’ unity prayer in John 17 and thought about His deep desire “that all may be one”. It sounds so simple when He says it.

 

[catholic_daddy]

You failed to look at the previous posts where this was dealt with. Jesus founded a Church that is intimately united to Him so much so that the Church IS Christ. He told His Apostles “Who hears you hears Me, who rejects you rejects Me, and who rejects Me rejects Him Who sent Me” (Lk ;10:16). What the Church teaches, Christ teaches. See also MT:16:18, ff.

Scripture says the Church is the Body of Christ. He is the Head. No one is saved without hearing a talk, a sermon, or reading Scripture. And all were brought to that person by someone in the Body of Christ. So in that sense you are correct. And of course you do realize that there are ten’s of millions of born again people around the globe who have never been in a Roman Catholic church and were not evangelized by a Roman Catholic, yet are part of the HOLY Catholic (literally, ‘Universal’) Church through faith in Christ, for all eternity, don’t you?

 

[Danno2281]

Scripture says the Church is the Body of Christ. He is the Head. No one is saved without hearing a talk, a sermon, or reading Scripture. And all were brought to that person by someone in the Body of Christ. So in that sense you are correct. And of course you do realize that there are ten’s of millions of born again people around the globe who have never been in a Roman Catholic church and were not evangelized by a Roman Catholic, yet are part of the HOLY Catholic (literally, ‘Universal’) Church through faith in Christ, for all eternity, don’t you?

I realize no such thing and if you would take my previous suggestion that you read through the proir posts, you will see that no Catholic can adopt the position that you take and pretend that he subscribes to the magesterium. Now you may or may not call yourself Catholic or catholic,but if you do not mean by “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church” exactly what the Chuch means, you really should not speak to what that Church teaches…

 

[Deconi]

I realize no such thing and if you would take my previous suggestion that you read through the proir posts, you will see that no Catholic can adopt the position that you take and pretend that he subscribes to the magesterium. Now you may or may not call yourself Catholic or catholic,but if you do not mean by “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church” exactly what the Chuch means, you really should not speak to what that Church teaches…

I think ‘catholic daddy’ has a valid point though! No human person has EVER heard of Christ, ACCEPT THROUGH The Catholic Church’s efforts in proclaiming Him!

Therefore, all who have discovered Christ, even separated from The Church at the moment are ‘catholic’ and within the tenets of Catholicism.

It is up to each individual though to discover what The Church claims about Her boundaries and “'the no salvation outside…” position, defined by Her Popes and ECFs.

Is this validating other Christian denominations as vehicles of salvation? Of course not! But ‘Christian’ they are and have found a shard of The Light that is Christ’s Church and for them to trace that light to the source!

Not being argumentative though.

 

[napad]

feeneyites are OK

"With regards to those who hold strictly the absolute necessity of water baptism, it would be quite wrong to charge them with heretical constructs. As they merely assert that which was the near-universal consensus of the Patristic era, such a charge would be proximate to condemning all but a few of the Fathers as heterodox." (Der Glaube das Pimmelkopfgelauben, Communio April 1997 p 13. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.)

“Quite wrong to charge them with heretical constructs… .” There are lots of armchair inquisitors out there who should pay attention to that one.

 

[napad]

Even Karel Rahner was honest enough to say that people can be saved by their ignorance or just following their conscience was a radical departure from a long held traditional teaching.

“…It was declared at the Second Vatican Council that atheists too are not excluded from this possibility of salvation… T**he only necessary condition which is recognized here is the necessity of faithfulness and obedience to the individual’s own personal conscience. **This optimism concerning salvation appears to me one of the most noteworthy results of the Second Vatican Council. For when we consider the officially received theology concerning these questions, which was more or less traditional right down to the Second Vatican Council, **we can only wonder how few controversies arose during the Council with regard to these assertions of optimism concerning salvation…"**Fr. Karl Raliner, S.J., “Problem of the ‘Anonymous Chris*tian’,” Theological Investigations, Volume XVI, The Seabury Press, New York, 1976, pp.283, 284.

 

[napad]

**Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism basically assert that man somehow has a natural claim on heaven. **

 

[napad]

Scripture says the Church is the Body of Christ. He is the Head. No one is saved without hearing a talk, a sermon, or reading Scripture. And all were brought to that person by someone in the Body of Christ. So in that sense you are correct. And of course you do realize that there are ten’s of millions of born again people around the globe who have never been in a Roman Catholic church and were not evangelized by a Roman Catholic, yet are part of the HOLY Catholic (literally, ‘Universal’) Church through faith in Christ, for all eternity, don’t you?

Here our Lord points out that the WORLD will notice that we are one= Church and believe.
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.( JN 21-22)

Our Savior, speaking of His Church under the figure of a flock, of which He Himself is the good shepherd, says: “And other sheep I have that are not of this fold; them also I must bring. And they shall hear My voice, and** there shall be one fold and one shepherd.”** [John 10: 16].

“The Lord increased daily together such as should be saved.” Or, as a Protestant translation has it, “The Lord daily added to the Church such as should be saved,” [Acts 2: 47]; which points out in the strongest manner, by what God actually did, that the being added to the Church is a condition absolutely required by Him in order to be saved.

Our Savior, after instructing us to admonish our offending brother in private, or before a few witnesses, concludes thus: “And if he will not hear them, tell the Church.** And if he will not hear the Church, **let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.” [Matt. 18: 17].

**There is one authoritative Church pointed out in scripture and no protestants existed until 1500’s, so, which church is the one scripture speaks of? Well it can’t be protestants

1. they didn’t exist
   One Lord, one faith, one baptism** (Eph. 4;5)
2. Protestants have no unified teaching: e.g. some say baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, others no; some say liturgy is ok, others no; some say speaking in tongues is necessary to be saved, others no; some accept “pagan” philosophy others don’t… Protestantism is not a Church but a movement of many churches all claiming authority for themselves – that they can infallibly interpret scripture.

 

[anon5216]

In skimming through this thread, it seems the entire discussion is focused on Catholic vs. non-Catholic Christians.

In that case everyone assumes biblical writings are the only scripture and the issue is one of interpretation and authority.

What about non-christians entirely?
A few pages back, someone quoted Benedict XVI saying “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.”

That’s quite broad and allows for any religion or non-religion.
It sounds much more spiritually sane than claims of requirements of membership in a supposedly infallible but not impeccable organization.

Non-Christians (and I include myself in that category as an ex-Catholic who finds more spiritual substance in various Indian systems than in the Catholic Church), are not going to simply accept the Bible as guaranteed inerrant or even completely spiritually inspired. Seen objectively as a whole, it doesn’t hold up.

I do feel passages here and there are inspired, but I would never go so far as to say the original inspiration has been maintained over the retellings and copyings from an original oral tradition.

Membership and following rituals just won’t automatically put you in conformity with Benedict XVI’s statement and not being Catholic won’t automatically put you at odds with it.

Salvation is completely independent of one’s organizational membership status.

 

[ron77nyc]

You must be baptized by a Catholic priest to go to heaven? It reminds me of “you must be circumcised.”

Acts 15:5 But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.”
6 3 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. 7 4 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. 10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.” 5 12 The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.

Footnotes by US Catholic Bishops

4 [7-11] Paul’s refusal to impose the Mosaic law on the Gentile Christians is supported by Peter on the ground that within his own experience God bestowed the holy Spirit upon Cornelius and his household without preconditions concerning the adoption of the Mosaic law (see Acts 10:44-47).
5 [11] In support of Paul, Peter formulates the fundamental meaning of the gospel: that all are invited to be saved through faith in the power of Christ.

 

[catholic_daddy]

I realize no such thing and if you would take my previous suggestion that you read through the proir posts, you will see that no Catholic can adopt the position that you take and pretend that he subscribes to the magesterium. Now you may or may not call yourself Catholic or catholic,but if you do not mean by “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church” exactly what the Chuch means, you really should not speak to what that Church teaches…

I speak to what God says in his Holy Bible. But just for grins, what does the magesterium say happens to those tens of millions of believers, missionaries and pastors…let’s start with Billy Graham???
God Bless

 

[ron77nyc]

I speak to what God says in his Holy Bible. But just for grins, what does the magesterium say happens to those tens of millions of believers, missionaries and pastors…let’s start with Billy Graham???
God Bless

Anyone who believes that all non-Catholics lack the fullness of worship or of understanding or anything else that is attached to being non-Catholic should speak to some Protestant missionaries and hear what God is doing and does when the gospel is preached to those who are hearing it for the first time.

 

[Danno2281]

I speak to what God says in his Holy Bible. But just for grins, what does the magesterium say happens to those tens of millions of believers, missionaries and pastors…let’s start with Billy Graham???
God Bless

Quo usque tandem… Please go back and rad thr previous posts. This has all been addressed.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Quo usque tandem… Please go back and rad thr previous posts. This has all been addressed.

I’m not able to do that. Can you give me the short version or paste it in? How about your understanding of it in one concise sentence?

 

[SeanTom]

Here our Lord points out that the WORLD will notice that we are one= Church and believe.
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.( JN 21-22)

Our Savior, speaking of His Church under the figure of a flock, of which He Himself is the good shepherd, says: “And other sheep I have that are not of this fold; them also I must bring. And they shall hear My voice, and** there shall be one fold and one shepherd.”** [John 10: 16].

“The Lord increased daily together such as should be saved.” Or, as a Protestant translation has it, “The Lord daily added to the Church such as should be saved,” [Acts 2: 47]; which points out in the strongest manner, by what God actually did, that the being added to the Church is a condition absolutely required by Him in order to be saved.

Our Savior, after instructing us to admonish our offending brother in private, or before a few witnesses, concludes thus: “And if he will not hear them, tell the Church.** And if he will not hear the Church, **let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.” [Matt. 18: 17].

**There is one authoritative Church pointed out in scripture and no protestants existed until 1500’s, so, which church is the one scripture speaks of? Well it can’t be protestants

1. they didn’t exist
   One Lord, one faith, one baptism** (Eph. 4;5)
2. Protestants have no unified teaching: e.g. some say baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, others no; some say liturgy is ok, others no; some say speaking in tongues is necessary to be saved, others no; some accept “pagan” philosophy others don’t… Protestantism is not a Church but a movement of many churches all claiming authority for themselves – that they can infallibly interpret scripture.

 

[SeanTom]

The differences in churches/religions do matter in finding the one true church. For instance, I found the following regarding the beliefs of Independent Baptist Churches:

"Independent Baptist churches (which may be referred to as Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, or IFB) are Christian churches holding to generally Baptist beliefs

In the early 1990’s, several prominent Independent Baptist works found themselves caught up in a series of scandals which affected member morale as well as public perception of their ministry methods. Sexual scandal, public criminal trials of pastors, deacons, and church workers indicted for sexual crimes, financial impropriety, and domestic/child abuse, all increased divisions, accusations, and counter-accusations within the movement. Additionally, controversy over use of the King James Version of the Bible has created deep schism. Most recently, the rise of Calvinism in what had been a predominantly Dispensationalist and semi-Arminian religious movement has prompted some IFB church members to resort to denominations such as the Southern Baptist Convention for a more stable church environment.

In the last ten years reformers from within Independent Fundamental Baptist churches have fellowship one with the other and often cooperate in such things as evangelism.

They, however, will only fellowship or cooperate in joint meetings with churches of like belief. They will not participate, on a church basis, or any outside function with churches which do not also strictly base their faith and practice on the New Testament. They will not engage in joint meetings, or evangelistic endeavors, with Protestants, Catholics, or other doctrinally unsound church groups, who do not hold to the fundamental teachings of the New Testament. Examples: Billy Graham, Promise Keepers.

Fundamental Independent Baptists church will remain separate from these churches as well as other Baptists groups who participate with the unscriptural churches. They practice the Biblical teachings of separation as stated in Ephesians 5:11, which says, "Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. " The Independent Baptist believes that to join with churches who teach and practice false doctrine is condone and even show approval of Biblical error and that all doctrinal error is sin.